Winchester Cathedral, you’re bringing me down
NewsThe suppurating discontent at one of England’s finest houses of worship burst into full flood in today’s Mail on Sunday.
Sample:
Winchester Cathedral is reeling from the controversy that has seen key figures leave, with Canon Precentor Andy Trenier accused of a dictatorial management style.
He is said to have berated the Director of Music Dr Andrew Lumsden in front of the boy choristers, and told singers they could leave if they didn’t agree with his approach. Those targeted by his volcanic temper are said to have been left trembling.
Canon Trenier’s relationship with the eight adult male lay clerks is said to have irretrievably broken down amid allegations that he has been coercive, manipulative and belittling. They are four short of their usual tally of 12 because, his critics say, working at Winchester is now seen as a poison chalice….
Holy moly.
More here.
They need to look into the CofE’s Head of Human Resources, as we have reported.
An unholy mess.
The Cathedral team needs to ask themselves why people visit cathedrals. surely part of it is to get a sense of awe in God’s presence, aided by the fine building.
Surely the choral music has a vital role in this.
There are many other valid types of Christian music, such as Gospel, but I would go somewhere else for that style of worship.
And all ‘thanks’ to bullying arrogance, lies and half truths, collusion in lying, by omission, and silencing of truth and justice, by threat. People have been jailed for less shameful, despicable behaviour…
Further evidence that religion encourages people to think they can do whatever they want. As long as they feel they have approval from above. And we know what that leads to.
Sadly the church is its own worst enemy.
There are people from all walks of life, religious or not, who feel they can do what they like. This isn’t particular to people of faith. Reflection on one’s own behaviour and the desire to improve is a key part of faith, although of course it doesn’t always work as well as we’d hope.
An elite Cathedral, and ypu couldn’t make it up if you tried.
Trollope did! But I take your point, Maria.
What is it that this Precentor has allegedly been doing? I’m not sure I really understand what power a Precentor might actually have over a music department – surely they don’t run it?
There’s one comment on this Daily Mail article that hints that there could be another potential side to this story –
“What… did he actually do something as draconian as insisting they turn up for choir practice?”
And another saying “Just doing his job.”
Not saying there’s any truth to those comments – but nobody seems to have any idea what is actually going on, or at least those who do aren’t talking about it.
Richard McVeigh, from the successful Beauty in Sound, former Assistant Organist of Winchester, has this to say:
“I remember a while ago, under different circumstances, but the same Winchester Cathedral saying to me when trying to ‘manage’ a situation:
“Imagine those Daily Mail headlines”.
“Well we needn’t imagine anymore.
Since leaving Winchester as Assistant Organist in 2012 I’ve played for dozens and dozens of events at the Cathedral,
Including recitals, visiting choirs, conducting the Girls’ Choir in a Jethro Tull concert, evensong with the boys’ choir, Advent Carol Processions, Dean Catherine Ogle’s installation service, organ marathons and I’ve taken several of my own choirs to sing there.
“What this place has become is desperately sad and I would struggle to return to my old workplace under the current regime. It’s not the place I remember.”
Which clearly hints that, to those in the know, there is something very awry.
But what? So much gossip and speculation, very little actual reporting.
What a mess indeed, for a very fine place with a very fine music program.
Generally speaking, a Precentor is an ordained member of the clergy who has overall responsibility for worship (which of course includes music to a large degree) in a Cathedral or large church, so the Organist/Choirmaster would report to them, with the Organist/Choirmaster largely responsible for programming, and entirely responsible for the music’s execution, but within the framework set out by the Precentor and Cathedral authorities. In normal circumstances it should be more a collaborative relationship than a boss/subordinate relationship, but as you can see, unfortunately this is not always the case.
His first comment to one person, who was attending a packed Cathedral for the annual Advent Procession, when the person asked if he’d enjoyed the service full of incredible music, light and drama, was, ‘Not enough congregation participation’, before stomping off. I heard that personally, as it was said to me!
Apparently he also informed the brilliant Director of Music, Dr Lumsden, that in future he’d need to get used to much lower standards of excellence. That was relatively soon after he took up the role of Precentor.
I’d also been led to believe that the Layclerks were being too demanding after lockdown. Having been told half truths at best, I now know that I was misled, and have apologised to the Layclerks, who are actually
epitome of professionalism.
The truth is now coming out of workplace bullying, is being called out for what it actually is. Dean and Chapter appear to be equally guilty by collusion through silence. Truly despicable. I have removed myself from Winchester Cathedral worship, and my regular giving will be following me. Money appears to be the prime interest there now.
Please don’t stop coming or supporting. Many of us are working behind the scenes to force some accountability. Whilst we do this the musicians continue to work incredibly hard and the music remains (for now) astoundingly good. The professionalism the musicians have all shown in recent years is extraordinary. Reminding Chapter that people value the music because of its excellence supports the cause – protecting the Choral Foundation at Winchester – expansion doesn’t need to involve dumbing down!
I was a lay clerk in the cathedral in the 90’s and 00’s. I won’t name him personally but I always perceived the Precentor to be the Head of the Music Department, working with the Organist and Master of the Choristers to ensure healthy working conditions and relationships with the whole choral foundation – organists, choristers and lay clerks. The working relationship at the top was, of course, also key to ensuring the quality of Music was the very best that it could be. At that time, Winchester was regarded as amongst the very best and, I should add that, in my latter years there, Andy Lumsden was the organist. He had enormous shoes to fill, but fill them he did – most impressively. His relationship with the Precentor of the time was a harmonious one. Andy really is not the problem here. I’m pretty sure that if his current working relationship with the Head of the Music Department was as productive as those with the previous incumbents, Andy would be in Winchester until his proper retirement. He loved the place (I use the past tense intentionally, as I’m pretty sure he won’t love it now – aside from working with the musicians of the cathedral which is at his very core), and I am very sad that this hugely talented and principled man is leaving under such circumstances. He deserves so much better.
Slipped Disc scooped the Mail!
Just all power in the name of God and then a Precentor allegedly shouting and bawling at musicians when a Precentor or any priest is supposedly there as a pastor to support them not go round intimidating them? If there are so many complaints about this guy, why hasn’t he gone? And if the wonderful Andrew Lumsden has been gagged by a Non Disclosure Agreement, after Justin Welby saying they are unacceptable, and allegedly pushed out, with another Precentor gpig around like a headless and heartless chicken, (remember Wakefield, the Precentor banned for ten years of ministry) then why are they waiting? Fine, the choir gets an award for Star Wars, but they shouldn’t be s***-scared going in to sing the services!!!
This out of control Precentor needs to be reminded by his useless, as bad as Dean, of what his role and responsibilities are as a Precentor.
Unfortunately, a lot of this unacceptable mess is as a result we understand because Trenier junior was rejected as being of a suitable standard to join the once distinguished choir under one of this country’s highly regarded choir directors.
The Precentor and his HR wife should reflect on the criticism they have brought on themselves for selfish personal reasons and resign before they bring Winchester Cathedral into any further disrepute and continue to give cathedral music and worship even more of a negative and bad name than it already has due to the appalling behaviour and attitude by many more senior clerics in other places of worship who consider themselves so self important far beyond decent human respect and consideration for other in the places of worship they are entrusted to lead and inspire and nurture.
About time The Cathedral Music Trust got their act together and sorted this unchristian mess out rather than organise academic unpractical conferences in nearby Salisbury in a few months time whilst seemingly ignoring the disaster in nearby Winchester.
How on earth are the Cathedral Music Trust supposed to “sort out” any mess with Winchester Cathedral’s chapter and/or HR? Even if they had any kind of say in that respect, if it’s true that Dr Lumsden is being gagged by an NDA, he wouldn’t be at legal liberty to give them any details.
The Trust is meant to be supporting Cathedral music and any intervention by mediation and support should be paramount rather than just seen to be promoting their own out of touch self promotion at their forthcoming gathering with academics discussing out of touch pie in the sky subjects claiming to be relevant to the parlous state of Cathedral music in the Uk the trust are meant to be defending rather than destroy.
Where has the Trust shown any intervention in this sad debacle?
in any case, who said anything about discussing the issue with Andy Lumsden would solve the problem here?
No, it’s the bullying out of control un Christian clergy that need kicking into touch here, not the musicians
I have seen personally and close up how this man has dealt with those he has taken against. This is not a management style it is plain and simple bullying. Unforgivable in any circumstance – beyond belief in an organisation that has the spiritual care of people in its hands. Despite investigations finding wrong-doing his line managers have condoned his behaviour so they are equally culpable. They think by saying nothing and hiding behind HR it will go away. Their actions (inaction) is both disturbing and disgusting.
He was incumbent at Ss Peter and Paul Chingford and did not endear himself to people in this part of London.
Well, now that some (but by no means all) of the goings on at Winchester Cathedral have finally hit the national press, I hope a speedy formal investigation can be undertaken into this sorry saga.
Piecing together further bits of information from various commentators more closely connected with Winchester than me, it appears, though I stress with no official confirmation, that Andrew Lucas has been appointed as interim Director of Music at Winchester. He would appear to be available, having announced his retirement from St. Albans some time ago and due to step down at the end of this term.
Master of the Music to retire in summer 2024
St Albans Cathedral
https://www.stalbanscathedral.org › news › master-of-the…
Jul 7, 2023 — After over 25 years service it has been announced that Andrew Lucas, The Master of the Music at the Cathedral, will retire in August 2024.
Whilst many will wonder why a musician of his stature would want to be publicly associated with the precentor at Winchester and effectively condone his actions against Dr. Lumsden, that is for others to speculate. What it would mean is that the Winchester Cathedral Choir would have an experienced and excellent musician to steer them through the next academic year whilst this mess is sorted out. As someone else pointed out, the wellbeing and security of the choristers and ley-clerks must be a priority if the cathedral is to get through its present troubles.
In addition, the cathedral is now advertising for a Director of the Youth Choir.
Fine on one level, but according to the job description this person will report to the precentor and not the Director of Music. Divide and conquer? This seems to be a very strange line-management system to me. Another aspect of the job is to recruit ‘qualified professional volunteers’ to aid the development of the choir. I don’t understand this phrase – it seems an oxymoron….
Link below:
Youth Choir Director
Despite problems now being in the public domain, the precentor and cathedral seem to be ploughing ahead with their plans. Surely a visitation from the Bishop is imminent?
Finally, Winchester Cathedral has been blessed over the last 50 years to enjoy the excellent musicianship and leadership of three giants of the English Choral tradition: Martin Neary, David Hill & Andrew Lumsden. Despite their enviable skill set, all three strove to protect and develop this tradition as custodians, in the full knowledge that they were serving the tradition, not dictating it. This seems contrary to a few members of clergy who over the years (and through the centuries, this is not a new phenomenon) think they know better. Sometime spent reflecting on their role as a custodian rather than dictator might be time well spent and lead to greater harmony. What takes years to build up can be lost in an instant if not cared for. Thankfully, the majority of clergy in cathedral precentor/pastoral roles do understand this and work well with their resident professional musicians to ensure that a tradition which inspires so many continues to thrive intact for future generations. Just watch the delight on the faces of all visiting a cathedral when they hear the choir rehearsing or singing a service – the sound of music brings these places alive and serves to enhance the liturgy….
I’ve had the immense pleasure and privilege of welcoming several visitors who had attended packed Carol Services, were so moved, that they came back to experience hearing more, at other services. It gave me the opportunity to welcome them more personally, and ask them to sit with me.
One couple had even made the journey from Geneva three years running, another couple made the trip from near Guildford every few weeks.
All because they were deeply moved by the music they heard. Priceless.
This reminds me of Exeter Cathedral a few years back which had a visitation due to similar issues. One awkward member of the chapter can unleash all sorts of havoc and ruin a community.
Quite a few clergy are promoted to cathedral positions without understanding the difference between a parish church and a cathedral.
They would do well to read Stephen Platten’s book ‘Flagships of the Spirit’.
‘A cathedral is *not* a parish church writ large’ is a very apposite quote.
Do clergy get screened for mental health issues prior to being appointed? Every comment written about this man makes me wonder if he might have a personality disorder of some sort.
Why is this man such a bully and why does everyone in Winchester seem to be so afraid of him?
Sadly there are lots of people in the Church of England who simply should never have been ordained who are anything but Godly and a lot of these are in Cathedral chapters. I am surprised Dr Lumsden allowed this guy to berate him in front of his choristers. If that had been myself I would have taken him aside and given him twice what he dished out then made a complaint of unprofessionalism. I’m very glad to have left the Church of England. It’s rotten in all sorts of ways now.
Depends on your personality type, I suppose. Besides, as I understand it, complaints were made – the Mail on Sunday article makes direct reference to one such and how Trenier was found to have acted “inappropriately”. However, this appears to have been allowed to slide by the Dean who presumably endorses the behaviour, given it has continued… In that situation you might be forgiven for thinking any sort of retaliation would just paint a bigger target on your back. Perhaps that’s exactly what happened, it just didn’t happen in the spectacularly unprofessional situation of in public or in front of children!
Until an independent investigation is carried out on what really took place the damage being done is incalculable and ruinous to the Cathedral. Such an investigation needs to be started asap and all those involved put on gardening leave. The D&C along with the Chief Operating Officer are not fit for purpose. They come here knowing f.. all about the traditions of our great cathedral , wreck it and then clear off. History has a nasty habit of repeating itself and imagine now they’ll be looking over their shoulders.
First, the Sub-Organist was removed by Trenier. An Employment Tribunal later found he was removed wrongfully.
Then the number of lay clerks was slashed by Trenier. The Dean now promises an “aim” of returning to full numbers (but can’t recruit anyone to fill even the present vacancies).
Chapter declined to have a meeting about everyone’s concerns about Trenier’s manner and bullying but instead started a formal grievance against him.
Rather than face the grievance, secretly Chapter offered Lumsden some sort of settlement if the allegations about Trenier could be swept under the carpet. This was all some time ago now – in 2023.
What a weird response to bullying behaviour for Chapter to allow the person being complained about not to face that process whilst also trying to get rid of Lumsden under a cloak of secrecy.
The Dean has to take responsibility for that abdication of responsibility. None of the grievances against Trenier were dealt with at all. His bullying behaviour to music staff, lay clerks, vergers and anyone else who dared question the man, has been allowed by the Dean to continue unchecked.
Now here we are in 2024. Who knows what has really gone on in the past 18 months, but Trenier’s manner is the same mix of arrogance and condescension as it has always been. The Sub-Organist has left. Lumsden has left under a who-knows-what NDA. The Dean and Trenier remain. Un-Christian and utterly disingenuous. What a disgraceful situation.
As I’ve said already, lies upon more lies, upon half truths, upon economies of honesty.
The congregation is being taken as fools, and of little regard except for bringing the money in. I suspect that is already changing, and soon the financial hemorrhaging will gather real pace. We shall see, shall we not?
I understand NDA are time limited to three to five years. So the truth will out ! They should NEVER be used in the church. We have had too much cover up within the church generally and The Post Office. It’s outrageous and meanwhile a wonderful musical tradition and heritage is trashed by ignorance. Looks like social climbing to me too !! Let’s make a name for ourselves !!
But is this true? I find this description hard to square with the Father Andy we knew in London. Are eye witnesses reporting this behaviour?
Crazy! These people don’t read the book they are reciting from.
Winchester Cathedral is the most toxic workplace I’ve ever worked in. The CFO and the dean are extremely racist.
I’m so sorry that you’ve experienced such unkindness. Hopefully you would know the actual congregation and Music Team to be much nicer people. God bless
Seems to be an increasingly frequent trend of Cathedrals self-destructing themselves over their choirs and chapters seeking radical reform of what most think is an essential part of Cathedral worship in our church. Exeter, Wakefield, Sheffield all spring to mind in one way or another. We are in the grip of a clerical movement that seems determined to eradicate what actually makes us Anglican at all levels. Parish Churches without communion, Cathedrals without evensong that is what seems to be the objective.
Some of the reasons I have parted company with the Church of England…
https://thecritic.co.uk/what-future-for-winchester-cathedral-choir/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3i73PdwEO-U_SHbcVXXZCKNVmrGaz0Nd8R-1KZH7PiDZNZn36eC6n1bTQ_aem_AYs9y3WazODIAgM2oVBsCrqTiyQxeG1SaVMgFD6gmwKDR-nyOtU4a1UQ7bRNBYTCwS6XnmYP_KfQAZJVKT2vFIXM
Are you there Justin? It’s me, God.
Why do you remain silent? Your people are upset and want to hear from you. I appointed you to lead, after all.
Do you remember how I taught you the values of honesty, integrity and transparency? You are driving people away from following me by saying one thing and doing another.
I know you’re a busy man but please, let’s schedule a catch up. It’s been far too long and it’s time I intervened.
Why the radio silence from our two “celebrity” ambassadors of the Cathedral Music Trust?
Alexander Armstrong, host of BBC TV quiz show Pointless and former chorister
Anna Lapwood, TikTok and Instagram superstar and supposedly an advocate of all things organ and choral (or at least herself)
https://www.cathedralmusictrust.org.uk/CMT/About/Meet-the-team.aspx
(Click Ambassadors)
The Dean has posted a somewhat ill-received video on social media (Facebook comments are once again disabled after the initial response)… what they have here is a failure to communicate.
https://youtu.be/Lm9X_5jG4Mc?si=m1w1DNS43mH1o3Ff
This is not the 14th century, people don’t just believe you by default. Get a grip…
https://www.acas.org.uk/resignation-letter-template#:~:text=Please%20accept%20this%20as%20notice,and%20pay%20I%20am%20owed.
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/mKA5ZBECN7Zpt2Mv/
This is the latest from the Cathedral.
Strangely enough virtually ALL the comments have been monitored and removed – ironically except one, from an eminent Music Journalist, who the Cathedral in their expertise, don’t apparently know!!!