NY Phil musicians say: we knew nothing
OrchestrasIt wasn’t us, say the musicians committee on the publication of an article showing extreme prejudice against two women brass players who were kicked out of the orchestra. One was also allegedly raped.
Both alleged perpetrators are still playing in the Philharmonic.
The committee has adopted the three-monkeys position.
And keep out of our way as we sprint out of this hot kitchen.
For more details, talk to the chef, AFM Local 802.
The reason why this story keeps resurfacing, why the philharmonic can never get from under it, why this zombie will never stay dead, is because both players show up on stage every concert, week after week, season after season.
Everytime you see one of them, everytime you hear one of their solos, you go, oh, isn’t that the oboist who… isn’t that the trumpet player who…(or worse, you mistaken one of his colleagues, is *he* the trumpet who….)
And there they are, being stared at for 2 hours under bright lights, looking blankly at their stand, knowing full well what everyone out there is thinking…
The AFM = villains, thieves and scoundrels union.
Bullshit, in the last labor contract negotiations, the orchestra’s union fought tooth and nail against lowering the arbitration standard from “clear and convincing evidence” (that Muckey and Wang won on) to “a preponderance of the evidence” (what the Philharmonic used to fire Muckey and Wang).
Solidarity forever,
Solidarity forever,
Solidarity forever,
For the union makes us strong.
Except for the female union members, whose dues – like everyone else’s – were used to pay legal fees for their predators.
Solidarity only goes so far if you’re not in the boy’s club.
If a gentleman of the orchestra offers a drink, remember the Russian diplomats offering tea.
The two ‘women brass players’ were men brass players.
Exactly what are you implying?
I suspect Will is making a nasty dig at the fact that the two women at the center of this became lesbian after leaving the orchestra and moved in together (read the NY Mag article to the very end).
I did read the entire article. Perhaps Will doesn’t understand that lesbians are not men, but biological women? If he doesn’t, he has real problems. If he merely intended a homophobic comment, he is simply vile.
“became lesbian” ?
1. Huh? I guess you’re saying these are trans women who were born men.
2. In any event, not sure how that’s relevant to the allegations. You may know this, but men can and do rape both men and women.
P Diddy did.
The two women brass players who dismissed were Kizer and Stewart. Try actually reading the story next time.
So confusing. So, one of the “men” wore tampons?
Certainly some men do deserve to have the issues that would require wearing of the wretched things.
BS…Amanda Stewart, whom i met once or twice, when the NYPO were on tour in 2011( i met with a close friend who is a principal with the orchestra) certainly isn´t.
Of course they do. That’s probably why neither of the newly appointed female members got tenure, and the article in Vulture makes it crystal clear as to precisely how that went.
But the reality is that all of this is perfectly legal. Being denied tenure is a discretionary matter that needs no justification whatsoever. The NY Phil has at this point no other choice but issue this sort of vacuous and predictable statement in order to do some damage control and somehow preserve its image. The bad publicity surrounding this very sad and sordid story is certainly not good for business.
It was as ham-handed as Peter Gelb’s and the Met board’s handling of the Levine mess. By denying and delaying, they do lasting damage to the reputation of their institution and themselves.
Too late to come out unsullied.
This statement is by the players of the orchestra not the “management”. The same folks who helped keep these two good ol’ boys their jobs
Right. I remember being surprised when these two guys were back in stage. I can tell you this – there is zero chemistry between Wang and principal flute, his neighbor Robert Langevin…………….
This statement is from the players organization, not the orchestra management itself.
Could someone please provide a link to the police report of the alleged rape? Or a copy of the indictment? Or a transcript of the trial? Does anyone know the verdict? Was the alleged perpetrator incarcerated? In which prison? Thank you.
They don’t actually have to be convicted for the Philharmonic to fire them. Shame on you.
Just imagine if they were completely innocent though.
Read the article. Neither purported perpetrator was tried.
I know that. I was making a point. This is not the way to handle these allegations. Period.
Read the article, it’s all in there.
The AFM and its locals are dependent on the Large Orchestras for work dues. They will do whatever the Orchestra asks them to do to keep collecting the work dues that are needed for the executive salaries of the Local officers.
There are no new ideas, membership declines each year, and any responses to technology in the industry are met with “better late than never” negotiations with management and industry heads.
The last election in Chicago Local 10-208 was a joke. No discussions of topics, slates created to favor long term administrators with zero creative ideas, and a membership that doesn’t care since they are apathetic.
But when it comes to defending bad behavior, despite all the #MeToo rhetoric in the International Musician, the AFM is sadly lacking.
If only orchestras would wake up and realize that they don’t need the AFM. The AFM needs them which is why they are defending these two tenured musicians.
Yep. Orchestras do not need AFM to collectively bargain. AFM provides next to nothing, but takes so much.
What an infuriating statement by the musicians calling on management to do better.
Let’s be crystal clear here: Management did do the right thing — they investigated and fired the accused musicians. The collective bargaining agreement allowed for a third-party arbitrator to make the ultimate call about if the musicians should be fired, and this arbitrator rejected management’s actions about the alleged conduct happened a while ago.
The musicians are the ones who need to do some soul searching. If they don’t want sexual predators in their ranks, they need to make it easier to fire people for grievous behavior.
And this is very simple to resolve. In the CBA, they could agree that with certain behavior, like sexual harassment and violence, that a third-party law firm hired at the expense of management will investigate the matter, and if they find a preponderance of evidence that supports the accusation, then management may fire the employee and that’s it — there’s no way to appeal the decision. Plenty of other unions do things like this in their CBA.
While that does give management a lot of power in these situations, musicians cannot have it both ways — they cannot demand that management fire sexual abusers quickly but then also demand that all employee discipline and terminations be subject to arbitration.
Ugh, so business as usual? How predictable. Why is it whenever there are predators in the room people suddenly can’t adult ? Too much to lose? Yeah, explain that to the victims, of which there will be more. Example: A James Levine. Hold onto your receipts everyone, we can do a group lawsuit.
This is truly one of the most laughable statements I think they could ever have put out. To act as if the events are recent, is to act as if they never knew this occurred in the first place. The only recent thing is the renewed press coverage, The event itself is very old news
This behavior was protected by the union and I guarantee the orchestra committee was in lock step with “protecting their Members”. They’ve known about this the whole time, and they have cultivated the work environment that they would like, which involves a member never facing accountability.
One of the funniest bits is calling upon the management, who tried to fire the musicians, to help protect them. They need to protect themselves, cause when management tried (under Borda I believe) the union protected the “accused” rapist. And the players of NYP have been complicit in continuing to work with them.
Seems like the orchestra committee is in the find out stage of effing around.
You reap what you sow.
At age 15 I was in a professional musical, a 26 year brass player pushed me against a wall & shoved his tongue in my mouth. Parents removed me. Junior year, pro-choir, director’s husband did the same. Clearly I was not in the choir my Senior Year, but the husband was still allowed to roam free. College: “Don’t go out with Dr. Westburg for coffee! He had an affair with a student who lost her mind and had to quit school.” He was married. Coaching at LA Opera, just give Domingo a BJ. The Met: “Oh, he would have sex with a dog for a role.” James Levine, to molest is Devine.” Seeing an old director, again tongue in the mouth against the wall. Opera singer on stage playing Giovanni, tongue. Side stage with a conductor, hands up skirt. It happens quickly. My best friend in high school who sadly ended up at Interlochen lost her virginity to her voice teacher. She was never the same again.
You become shocked and stunned that men you respect and tell you how talented you are only see you as a piece of meat to be conquered. Conductor said to me once, “I only go after married women, I love doing that to the husbands.” I am very lucky to have left the profession before I was drugged. I remember hearing about a girl who was raped by her director. He got into her apartment by asking to see the different lay out that she had while on the road. I told my friends in LA ‘I’m pretty sure the classical world is worse than the Weinstein/Cosby Hollywood.’ I was calling out Domingo years ago but since I walked away before he got his chance to do real damage to me I had nothing to go on, just his gross lascivious nature towards me while I was sitting in on rehearsals. Like I wanna be looked at like I am desert by an overweight old guy in a wig who happens to be a singer.
Are there women in the business who slide right into this sex club lifestyle? Of course. I walked out of an opera once right in the middle because I knew the talentless singer on stage was shagging Domingo. I wasn’t about to waste another minute listening to that dribble so I left in the middle of the aria.
The women who speak up are telling the truth. It takes enormous courage to go to a police station and sit across cops. She was probably crying when the tampon was brought up. How awful and it’s embarrassing. I’m sure the cop was shocked that this occurred within the classical community since they deal with a different kind of lowlife that always makes the news while this kind does not make the news, eh wangmuckey?Being a classical musician is the best cover for that kind of salacious, illegal behavior. I can see it confusing a cop.
I was always sad to leave the profession and still sad to this day because I loved the art form so much. I grew up a violinist, speak French and Italian but I learned that no one really cared how hard I worked or how much I loved the art form, even at the top houses. Many are in the business for the accolades and opportunities to be disgusting. Most do not care about the job at all. Even a conductor I knew who loved the work still seduced the choir girls, one cried so he moved onto the more seasoned ones I guess.
After Charlie died at the Met, I left. The classical world is mainly a bunch of loser wannabe insecure scumbags. Who knew.
Congratulations to the author Sussman and the courageous Kizer.
Finalmente, all of you on here defending this behavior are the ones most likely doing this behavior and are scared of getting caught. Now go away losers.
Thank you for telling it like it is. More people need to speak up. I remember the shock when a colleague told me about Levine. ‘ oh everyone knows’ they said. What? Then why isn’t anyone DOING anything?
thank you so much, M.
I was working the overnight shift at an upscale NYC hotel on a night that D and a party of his guests were having dinner in the lobby restaurant. Around 2:00 in the morning, I left my post, with permission from the manager, to use the ladies room. D followed me into the bathroom and backed me up against the wall. I don’t believe his intentions were anything other than to attempt to assault me. I was very small and petite and he towered over me. I was only rescued when his wife came into the ladies room to see where her husband had gone. D’s reply? “Oh, I thought this was the men’s room.” They both exited the bathroom (which was CLEARLY marked “Ladies room”) and left me there, still backed against the wall, shaking. I reported the incident to hotel management, and I was “strongly” encouraged not to say anything to anyone about it, including the police, because “nothing really happened.” (I did tell family members and a few friends the next day). I was very young, broke and scared, but I left the job because I didn’t want to be in that atmosphere where I was treated as being an object for the guest’s amusement. When the story about D came out from the AP, there was a sentence in the article about how female singers were warned not to use the ladies room near D’s office. I was not at all surprised at how he must have been continuing this same m.o. he tried to use on me. [names redacted]
Who is D? Dutoit?
Meanwhile all the New York Times has had to report about the Philharmonic in the last couple of days is a bland review of last Friday’s concert: “The woodwinds handed off phrases with snappy coordination. The brasses . . . snarled and shone” https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/14/arts/music/review-nyphil-manfred-honeck.html
Muckey should be in jail.
Why? Because an article in Vulture has convinced you of his guilt?
A court of law determines criminality, not social media outrage.
For what it’s worth, I find the accuser’s story unconvincing.
Bone, your opinion doesn’t have any value because you blame the victim every single time. You’re consistent, I’ll give you that. Makes me concerned for the women in your sphere, though.
No because he raped someone asshole!
Does anyone have a dog that can carry “Bone” off and bury him?
M: At age 15 I was in a professional musical, a 26 year brass player pushed me against a wall & shoved his tongue in my mouth. Parents removed me. Junior year, pro-choir, director’s husband did the same….Coaching at LA Opera, just give Domingo a BJ. The Met: “Oh, he would have sex with a dog for a role.”
—–
Sickening how debased both the culture and politics have become in today’s era. Although decadence goes back centuries (ie, tales of the behavior of the *elite* in ancient times), something about ideology in the 2020s (aka “woke”) is adding insult to injury. Or cases where people with legitimate claims are treated like liars or troublemakers, and liars with illegitimate claims are treated like saints or martyrs. All influenced by which side of the bread (ie, your politics) is buttered on.
Ah, boo hoo. Maybe you can wait another 20 years and then cash in?
This so-called ‘statement’ from the NY Philharmonic’s Players’ Committee is little more than a slap in the face. How convenient to stand against misconduct when the whole world is watching. Where was this outrage when the shadows were whispering the truth?
Your finely worded remorse is too little, too late. We, the community, needed real leadership, not spineless acknowledgments that reek of PR damage control. What we demand is a bold, unwavering commitment to transformation, actionable steps taken in the light, not apologetic murmurs in the aftermath of a scandal.
Action, not words, is the order of the day. The time for rehearsals is over. It’s high time the Philharmonic-Symphony Society steps up to the podium of accountability and conducts a symphony of integrity. We’re listening, and we expect to hear a masterpiece, not a tentative prelude that goes nowhere. Enough is enough. The music, and our tolerance for this charade, must change now. TIC TOK, TIC TOK!
This was not about the management at the NYPO.
It was another example of the ineffective AFM and the lack of accountability at Local 802.
Management tried to fire these players but 802 stuck up for them.
Another example of how the AFM is out of step with the times and useless in more ways than one.
It is easy to see why the relevant authorities decided not to prosecute. There are a series of “coincidences” that any defense attorney worth his salt would use to punch holes in the “victim’s” story, especially the “my battery is about to die” bit. Seems far too convenient, especially considering she could have borrowed the dude’s charger at his place (of course, the charger might not have been compatible, but more often than not they are). It boggles the mind to think of a circumstance where you decide to go to some guy’s place, with your phone dying, your husband arriving late, continuing to consume alcohol, and it NOT being easily construed as whatever happened being consensual on both parts. If nothing else, what unbelievably poor judgment on HER part. If I were the husband, I wouldn’t believe HER story. FWIW, Muckey sounds like a scumbag, yet I’m completely agnostic as to who to believe. It makes complete sense why he was successful in arbitration, whether you like the result or not. Also, you can’t blame current NYP management for this result. They tried to get rid of these guys and they just couldn’t. What other legal remedy is there? I’m genuinely asking. Because having said all that, if I were NYP management, I would try my damnedest to get rid of these guys who, if nothing else, seem to be creating a horrendous work environment for many members of the orchestra. It would seem to me that if they had any recourse, they would have already tried it. From everything I’ve read, it would seem they have no choice in the matter. Obviously any future CBA should be structured in such a way to never again let an untenable situation like this develop.
Maybe she went despite a dying cell-phone battery because she didn’t ever consider that two of her colleagues would rape her.
And if this had all been consensual, the more logical response would be to say in the morning “Maybe that wasn’t such a good idea. We won’t do this again, and we won’t talk about it, right?” A lot easier to do that than to try to launch a case against someone on your tenure committee? You think she didn’t consider all the ramifications?
I agree NYPO management did the right thing. Eventually.
At first, I should say that I do not know any of the parties involved. Although this might trigger some, I do not believe that GBH was used despite the accusation and drug testing. I believe that they were both inebriated and things happened, so blaming either party for that makes about as much sense as blaming someone that was genuinely sleepwalking for bumping into and destroying an expensive vase. However, both sides demonstrated bad judgement for setting up a “Rut could go roh-ng?” situation. I’m sure people out there are thinking the same thing…obviously the cops did as well. But we have some man-hating, venom-spitting feminists in this industry who want to scare people so much to the point where people with opposing opinions are no longer allowed to think on their own. They can go f*** themselves…tired of it! Don’t fall for the manipulation people. They do not call the shots. The biggest victim in all this is most likely Wang…simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Rape is a horrible crime and should never be tolerated. But the legal system exists for a reason. Obviously the mob justice “mob” never watched CSI.
Hadn’t she already
{allegedly} been drugged at that point? If so, she didn’t know what she was or wasn’t doing at any point thereafter.
That said, I don’t disagree with your analysis of why district attorneys passed on prosecuting the case. There is enough semi-plausible deniability here to create reasonable doubt in the mind of a jury. These two musicians better mind their p’s and A’s, however. An arbitrator may have let them off the hook last time, but if they create a hostile work environment in the future they may not be so lucky. Then they’ll be playing on the wedding and Bar Mitzvah circuit instead of with the NY Phil.
I hadn’t realized orchestra musicians enjoyed tenure. I assume that’s a relatively recent development, because it presumably wouldn’t have been possible for the Toscaninis and Szells to prune their orchestras nearly as ruthlessly as I’ve always understood they did if their players had been tenured. Perhaps those stories weren’t true.
Those stories were true. At the time musicians’ unions were either weak or non-extant and the dictator directors fired people during rehearsals, after a bad concert, etc.
Reiner had the worst problems of all of them. There were members of the CSO who sat next to each other and had not spoken in years. Reiner was not allowed to easily force their firings and had to deal with them as if nothing was wrong.
That is absurd. Reiner was allowed to fire people at his whim at the drop of a hat…
Heeeey but the guys are wonderful musicians and that’s what matters, no? All for the sake of music. Let’s separate the artist from the sexual predator, shall we?
Utterly disgusting. I hope they end up in jail at some point.
Keep in mind that this Musicians Committee is a very different one than when this incident occurred. Orchestras tend to have about three retirements a year, so 40% or more of the orchestra has turned over since then – 14 years ago. You have newer players in the orchestra who were in middle school when this happened and know nothing about it. Maybe not even from when Wang and Muckey were fired six years ago. Between turnover, NDAs, etc., it’s no surprise that many of the musicians don’t know the grim details here.
I call upon the musicians’ committee to immediately and unilaterally remove the arbitration provision from their contract. The Society did their part by firing these two, but were overruled by the committee and their process. It’s the only way to keep this from happening again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HblPucwN-m0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbWmIHhSRvg
The NYP made a fatal mistake by not granting tenure to these two women, who were the first in the history of that storied brass section. Regardless of whether that decision had any merit, it was *always* going to look like retaliation. Amanda and Cara were good enough to have won international auditions for those chairs, so there was enough talent and ability to warrant spending extra time and effort to help them if necessary.
My next statement will undoubtedly be controversial, and my musician colleagues may even chime in that it would be prohibited by the NYP CBA or union by-laws, but there may be a way to fix part of this situation: there are vacancies right now in that horn section. Bring Cara back, and if necessary, keep her in the stable until the right position opens up, depending on what fits her range. She has technically already won an audition with the orchestra, and there are already vacancies in the section. Amanda’s situation would be more difficult but not untenable. The 2nd trombonist has got to be at least considering retirement (sorry, David), so likewise immediately put Amanda on the roster and drop her into that position when it opens. Yes, it would be expensive, but it would be an opportunity to right a wrong, so it’s a bargain.
I’m not naive enough to believe there would be no legal obstacles, but if done as a one-time gesture under extraordinary circumstances, it would at least be worth considering. Of course, all of this presumes that these two women would even want these jobs, but the NYP has got to do “something”. They are both very fine, capable players, so this is not just some token stunt. This is a chance for a mulligan, New York.
Regarding the issue of Muckey, I have done some more thinking on this topic. Regardless of whether or not GHB was used, the fact that Cara was inebriated enough to actually vomit tells me that she really was not in a state to give consent. At the very least, it shows an appalling lack of judgment on Muckey’s part. Couple that with the fact that he was on her tenure committee, and as an associate principal would be considered to be in a supervisory role, there needs to be harsh disciplinary action taken. Rape may have been difficult to prove, but this certainly is not.
Cara is welcome to bring a civil suit…but oddly she hasn’t; why is that? According to you and the other armchair lawyers there seems to be enough evidence.
Anyway, I’m ready for the next outrage; this one is more than done. But since a white male is involved by all means keep on stirring.
She has an NDA, which most of the time means pending litigation was settled out of court. Since this was tied to a workplace (even if it didn’t happen onstage, but it happened during a work tour) it would fall under Title VII.
Plus if she did sue him, then people like you would just be shouting that she’s just a money hungry _____.
You think it would be fair for the two individuals who were offered trials for the assistant principal horn vacancy to be cast aside in favor of someone who won the audition a decade-and-a-half ago? In what universe does that make sense?
I am acutely aware of most of the reasons this cannot (or should not) be done. Show me how it *can* be done, NYP. Extraordinary circumstances necessitate extraordinary action.
The fact that local 802 thought it proper to push the two back into the orchestra is heinous. Yuja on the other hand has not been with Muckey for years and should not be dragged into this conversation.
wrong thread.