Who’s missing from Amsterdam’s Mahler cycle?
NewsThe Concertgebouw has completed plans for another integral cycle of Mahler symphonies with the Chicago Symphony clicking in under Jaap Van Zweden for the 6th and 7th symphonies.
Here’s the triumphant press release:
The Concertgebouw will welcome top orchestras from three continents to the third Mahler Festival in its history. This ten-day event will be opened by the Concertgebouw Orchestra with Klaus Mäkelä conducting the First Symphony, followed later in the festival by Mahler’s Eighth, the Symphony of a Thousand. Conductor Jaap van Zweden will conduct Symphonies No. 6 and No. 7 with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. The acclaimed Berlin Philharmonic led by principal conductor Kirill Petrenko and conductor Daniel Barenboim will also perform during the festival, in which Mahler’s ten symphonies as well as all his songs can be heard. Tokyo’s NHK Symphony Orchestra visits Europe for the festival led by chief conductor Fabio Luisi. Iván Fischer finishes off the line-up with his Budapest Festival Orchestra.
Spot the missing orchestras? No Vienna Philharmonic, Mahler’s home-base orchestra.
And why Chicago, when the New York Phil was Mahler’s American orchestra. Makes no sense.
Because Chicago is a totally different level than NY.
Are they? https://www.wqxr.org/story/carnegie-hall-opening-night-gala-chicago-symphony-orchestra/
Sounds very mediocre, not even that technically secure. Also as soulless as ever.
No, I was there and they were superb. I heard the Phillies last night also at Carnegie. Both equally good.
Once they hit a certain level of quality, most professional orchestras rarely sound any different from each other, except when talking of individual players. The number one thing, I think, that will set two orchestras apart is ultimately consistency.
Basically, no, the Chicago Symphony and the NY Phil are not on totally different levels. In America, even Tier 2 orchestras are not *that* different from Tier 1. A majority of players in the latter first made it in the former, and sometimes they even jump between them (e.g., Noah Geller, concertmaster for the great Seattle Symphony, previously held that position in Kansas City, and prior to that was a section player in Philadelphia).
The New York Times shares your sentiments. Also Sprach Zachary Woolfe:
“But while the Philharmonic is a very high-quality ensemble, it is not quite at the same level of flawlessly brilliant precision as Solti’s Chicagoans. So you get the overbearing control and aggressive forcefulness without the climactic grandeur or dumbfounding shine.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/01/arts/music/celebrate-van-zweden-ny-philharmonic.html
No way Chicago was invited first and then van Zweden was attached to the project; more likely that van Zweden actively endorsed inviting Chicago.
==Daniel Barenboim will also perform during the festival,
Place your bets
He will sit in front of an orchestra and the concertmaster will conduct.
Funny to see him at the Concertgebouw I have seen the archives he never directed the RCO and only played a piano concerto with Mariss twice.
He won’t be conducting the Concertgebouw. He will be conducting the Berlin Philharmonic in the Adagio from M10 and das Lied von der Erde.
Of course it’s too late for this orchestra to start a story with him as conductor.
Because it´s not about hearing the same 5 orchestras ad nauseam, It´s about how Mahler is played today all over the world…The number of world class orchestras has immensely grown in the 21th century.If you are VPO centered, there are many opportunities to catch them live. It´s also not about the orchestras Mahler conducted….It´s a showcase for Mahler performances around the world in 2024.
Makes perfect sense!
why not Chicago?
LA with Dudamel a very good Mahler conductor would have been better.
Lol. No.
Did you see him conduct Mahler? Me once the third symphony with the LA phil it was very good.
Yes. I did. His M1 debut with the CSO years ago was stupendous. He’s gone downhill since unfortunately. Not sure what happened with him, but I haven’t heard a memorable performance from him in a long while.
Indeed a vastly preferable combination than Chicago with Van Zweden.
Does this put Jaap in the running for CSO music director?
With dates like that it sounds like Chicago already decided…
oh nooooo! don’t say that! :/
I see your point. But this festival was originally planned for 2020 and that edition would have included the New York Philharmonic, the Wiener Philharmoniker and the Gustav Mahler Jugendorchester. From that I take that the 2025 program is not the result of a lack of historical awareness in Amsterdam. It’s probably for different, perhaps more practical reasons that these orchestra’s did not make the program this time.
Impossible to do that perfectly and I regret the fact that Chailly (for me the gretest Mahler conductor) didn’t come. But he participated to the fest in the 90’s.
Only the Adagio from the 10th? ):
Maybe they can adjust things and get Daniel Harding to fly in. He does it well.
My sentiments exactly. You think they could find a conductor and orchestra to do one of the performing edition/completions of the five-movement Tenth.
Nice to have Petrenko leading BPO for a Mahler programme again, the 6th before covid was quite different but quite spectacular. I am guessing they will play the 9th(originally programmed 2 years ago but got interrupted by covid)
In the 90’s Abbado came for another Mahler Fest with the BPO
His 7th last season @ Carnegie Hall was a smash.
Just checked the RCO website:
RCO: No.1 and No.8 with Makela
Budapest Festival: No.2 and No.5 with Ivan Fischer
NHK Symphony: No.3 and No.4 with Luisi
CSO: No.6 and No.7 with Zweden
BPO: No.9 with Petrenko and No.10+Das Lied with Barenboim
The Leipzig programming was quite more exciting (and I’m so glad I was able to attend). Was really looking forward to this but only the song recitals *really* excited me. The orchestra/conductor recycling is a bit of a letdown (I know having so many orchestras is not the norm – that’s why Leipzig was so great and I guess it spoiled me). They were also very creative in Leipzig about additional concerts (the organ concerts, chamber versions, Drei Pintos, Das klagende Lied). Also don’t like that the festival pass options are limited to having to sit in one “price section” for all concerts rather than picking my own seats according to the concert/the patron’s wishes. Here, too, the Gewandhaus showed the way.
Wishing Concertgebouw the best with this festival and am glad I got to experience the gold standard of programming in Leipzig!
Norman don’t forget that when Mahler was is Vienna his music was not realy loved… And I explained few months ago my embarrassing experience to find in Grinzing the Mahler’s grave…….. And there’s this famous archive of Bernestein in Vienna with an orchestra who don’t seems to be very pleased to play this music. The orchestra missing for me is the BR orchestra because hisitoricly after Amseterdam (the real Mahler orchestra because of Mengelberg, even if there’s his dark story) it’s the orchestra with Kubelic who helped Mahler to be played. I can add also the NY Phil.
It’s actually the Munich Philharmonic, not the BRSO the one who had the historical connection to Mahler.
The BRSO was founded after WW II. But the MP gave the premiere of the 4th and 8th symphonies under Mahler himself, and of Das Lied under Bruno Walter.
And here’s a little known fact: the orchestra kept playing Mahler’s music even during Celibidache’s time.
interisting to read that. But I’am not completly convince the reality is that, the Kubelic’s DG records added a big impact for Mahler after what was done by the RCO with Philips.
Well, I suppose we read differently the phrase historically connected.
Yes, everything Kubelik did is pure gold. His 1960s set, together with that of Bernstein did help the wide public appreciate Mahler’s music.
Of course, Mahler had his champions even before Bernstein and Kubelik. Bruno Walter, Klemperer, and Mitropoulos, for instance; even Josef Krips. And the Vienna Symphony played quite often Mahler during the 1950s; so did the Vienna Philharmonic actually (its archive shows 46 performances of Mahler’s music between 1944 and 1960).
But I suppose it’s fair to say that before Bernstein and Kubelik Mahler had only a succès d’estime.
Before Bernstein and Kubelik there was Hitink and the RCO anyway
Interisiting your informations about the Mahler’s concerts in Vienna from 44 to 60. But anyway when you go to Vienna you can’t feel the spirite of Mahler. he don’t have his big statue like Bruckner for exemple. And find in Grinzing the Mahler’s grave could be very long if you try.
Concerning Bernstein and Kubelik it was somthing very important for Mahler
The fact that Celibidache didn’t do records didn’t help
Please note: I said that the orchestra played Mahler during Celi’s tenure, not that Celi himself conducted it – except for that marvelous Kindertotenlieder with Fassbaender.
But there are always guest conductors, and the Mahler offerings were with A-list maestros. Lorin Maazel conducted the 2nd and the 8th symphonies. Seiji Ozawa also lead the 2nd. Semyon Bychkov conducted the 3rd, with Waltraud Meier soloist. There are more examples, but they escape me.
I’d so much rather have Jonathan Nott doing No’s 1 and 8, he so much more talented than Mäkelä who, let’s face it, is pretty bad. Salonen in 6 and 7, Barenboim to do 5
NY Phil was not only Mahler’s orchestra but supposedly Jaap’s. Vänska and Bychkov are making great Mahler with the Minnesota and Czech respectively.
So we’re still breathing life into tropes that certain orchestras have some kind of special perspective on a composer because literally 100+ years ago the composer conducted the orchestras?.
Well, orchestral traditions can be passed on from generation to generation. (Something Mahler objected to when he led Vienna, calling tradition another word for sloppiness…) However, nowhere does the Concertgebouw promise an encyclopedic cycle of particularly Mahler-connected orchestras; rather, they promise A worldwide collection of superb orchestras performing Mahler. They’ve delivered.
As to the Chicago Symphony, might they be a better Mahler Orchestra? They have performed many Mahler symphonies over the years, including the 6th not that long ago. And they have that extraordinary brass section
NY Phil plays Mahler as though they are sick and tired of playing it, especially when the conductor is giving a textbook rendition. It’s really not a criticism of them – they are fantastic when it’s just outside of that core, or the conductor has something interesting to contribute.
Mäkelä is soon to be announced as the CSO’s next music director, so add that to the strangeness of the picture.
Why are people downvoting accurate comments ?
Makaela will butcher Mahler 1, mark my words.
Will see. I’m going!
Chicago has made Mahler its calling card ever since its 1970 European tour with Solti. They have performed and recorded Mahler with all of their music directors, principal conductors and principal guest conductors since Reiner, except for Muti. Mahler has featured in just about every one of their concert seasons since. It’s a bit shocking that anyone would question the CSO’s Mahler bona fides.
Muti conducted Mahler 1 and 4, along with the Ruckert-Lieder (with Elina Garanca), in Chicago.
But Muti didn’t record Mahler in Chicago. Reiner, Solti, Giulini, Abbado, Barenboim, Boulez and Haitink all did.
Please. Those Mahler recordings are godawful. Blaring brasses plus stiff woodwinds plus colourless strings—even Abbado could’t make them phrase. Chicago should stick to Prokofiev and Shostakovich.
Yes… CSO brass thinks too much of themselves. Most often too loud, blaring, strident and colorless. Nothing approaching the glory days of Herseth, etc… Trombone section especially needs to retire en mass. Often painfully bad. University sections sound better. It’s a shame.
with Mahler you want loud brass
The Solti Mahler recordings with the CSO aren’t half as bad as the caricature its critics make them out to be. Partly, that’s the recorded sound. The later recordings sound much warmer than the earlier ones. Case in point, compare Solti/CSO Mahler 5 from 1970 vs. 1990.
But my point was that all titled conductors of the CSO from Reiner onward, except Muti, recorded Mahler with the orchestra: Reiner, Solti, Giulini, Abbado, Barenboim, Boulez and Haitink. You can say what you want about Solti, many of the others are beloved by Mahlerians around the world.
No, just no.
“makes no sense?” What that the VPO and NYPO are absent? Other orchestras can play Mahler you know. Most especially the CSO who had Solti and Barenboim for years. They can probably play most of the Mahler Symphonies from memory.
Ring the changes ! It doesn’t have to be those orchestras: why shouldn’t the Berlin Phil or the Chicago symphony be playing? Nonsense article.
Not to mention the Czech Philharmonic
Oh please! That orchestra seriously does not belong in this company anymore. No matter what Bychkov and Hrusa do, every time I heard them it was still a major disappointment. They simply don’t have the recourses to build a world class ensemble and maintain it. As sad as it is, the greatness of the orchestra under the likes of Ancerl and Neumann (Hope I spelled that right) has gone with their old regime.
thank God their sour winds and woolly horns have gone with the regime.
What’s wrong with The Chicago Symphony performing Mahler and why must the American orchestra joining the program be the NYPO? And what does Mahler having been its conductor 110+ years ago have anything to do with anything? Foolish comment.
If you’re asking “Why Chicago?”, then what will you say about Milan?
They’re kicking off a complete symphony and lieder cycle three days from now, with, among others, Filarmonica della Scala/Chailly, Santa Cecilia/Manfred Honeck, and the Eighth at the Duomo with Orchestra Sinfonica & Coro Sinfonico di Milano/Claus Peter Flor:
https://sinfonicadimilano.org/en/festival-mahler-2023
People I am shocked! Not a single comment about Muti yet?
Seriously wonder how the old man feels about “his” CSO going on tour without him already…
Btw JohninDenver below claims that CSO is about to appoint Makela as MD, I think the fact that he’s only conducting Concertgebow and CSO is being led by Jaap says otherwise. Also my fairly reliable source from Chicago says Makela turned them down since he already has Oslo, Paris and Amsterdam and he’s booked all the way until 2032. The same source also says they are actively pursuing Thielemann which they feel positive about.
I’m not sure if there’s more to Jaap with this, his connection to Amsterdam is obvious and he did Mahler 6 with CSO last season so there seems to be certain convenience to it. However he conducted CSO last week and an old friend of mine from the orchestra claimed Jaap was clearly auditioning for the MD job. Share your gossip if you know more!
Chicago is one of the greatest orchestras in the world which makes a lot of sense!