Russia accuses Kiev protestors of shooting police from the Conservatoire
mainThe Voice of Russia reports overnight that protestors have made a fortress of the Tchaikovsky Conservatoire, on the edge of Maidan square. This morning, Putin’s propaganda machine claims the building is being used by snipers to shoot at police.
If it’s from ‘Voice of Russia’ treat with most extreme caution (i.e., discount)! Meanwhile, BBC Ukraine has posted photos from Polish TV showing Berkut forces firing at protestors with Kalashnikovs — a rather more likely source of gunfire. Some dozens of Maidan protestors have apparently been killed tosday.
That’s why I described it as Putin’s progaganda machine.
Up until recently, the Kiev riot police have been restrained and in many cases unarmed, and they’ve suffered numerous injuries, while the military has remained on the sidelines. If the elected President Yanukovich has a constitutional duty to protect the Ukraine citizens and their property, one can’t expect that, with buildings burning and rioters beating up people, there won’t be a response. Unfortunately, the West through NGOs and irresponsible officials like Victoria (“FU EU”) Nuland trying to choreograph Ukraine’s political future, and crazies like John McCain who is still frustrated he couldn’t drop napalm on the Vietnamese, have fanned the flames. Maybe as the next step, they’ll send in Al Qaeda to shish kebab the residents and release edited video interlaced with scenes from Alexander Nevsky, so that we can all blame the Russians. As for the BBC and its photos, it doesn’t have the most stellar record, having recycled AP photos of a decade old Baghdad massacre to prove Assad’s guilt in the Hama and Ghouta massacres, both of which were later proven to have been committed by the rebels. The irony of all of this is that, apart from Eastern Ukraine, which is the industrialized and most prosperous part of the country, and that wants to retain relations with Russia, the rest of Ukraine is a failed state, and if it signs on with the EU will end up screwed just like Greece.
Re: the faked photos for Syria, I meant to say Houla and Ghouta.
Norman, I hate to tell you this thing about Russian propaganda… Go look on YouTube or any today’s pictures of these dudes marching with weapons they took from Lviv last night. How did dozens of policemen got killed by bullets? Maybe they were reloading and looking in the barrel? Today nobody even hides bandits (which they are0 are well armed with Kalashniko’vs and other weapons including stationary machine guns and grenade launchers. Let us not talk about propaganda – it starts to stink a lot. Today Conservatory I studied in 20 years ago was taken by these thugs, and they do not intent to play pianos… That sniper by the way was caught after downing some 20 people from that very Conservatory roof, with Belgian made automatic sniper rifle… (how did he get his hands on that one???) Hmmmm.
“Today Conservatory I studied in 20 years ago was taken by these thugs, and they do not intent to play pianos.”
Conservatory students, according to my reading, are a big portion of the protesters. Your upbringing during Soviet times – and use of state-controlled Russian sources – has colored your thinking.
Here are examples of the students playing those pianos, as well as one explaining in English why he protests and why he plays. Please remember that in the last 24 hours, the Conservatory has been a field hospital:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyaP7gWONzk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2mjofRQmeM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr7xcHth4O4
“How did dozens of policemen got killed by bullets?”
Dozens of policemen were not killed by anything, let alone bullets, according to a variety of sources from at least three countries. You may present your source, if you choose. Do not quote Russia Today or ITAR-TASS.
@Michael Borovsky – When faced with video evidence, no response?
We are witnessing another proxy war, fueled by the US and their ‘useful idiots’. When will it ever stop, that meddling in internal affairs of foreign countries? Does everybody know who these radicals in Kiew are? Many of these “heroes” our stupid mainstream media has taken side with are nationalists, ultra-right wing thugs and anti-semites of the worst imaginable kind. Who supplies them, who pays them?
The Ukrainian forces are acting too late and too weak. Imagine unrests in L.A. or New York and over 20 police men shot. Can you imagine the reaction of the government forces in that case?
@Kassandra The agreement brokered by the EU, the US and Russia has been rejected by the revolutionaries in Ukraine, just as the attempts to force the signature on previous agreements was rejected. It is no proxy war.
The Soviet mentality sees conspiracy everywhere because it is much easier to explain failure or confusion that way. The country can still be great if it’s everyone else’s fault. Could it be that Russia’s neighbor is rising up for freedom and will be a European nation through they own hard work? Nah.
The city is called Kyiv, by the way.
The city is called Київ. That English speakers call it Kyiv is ok, others call it Kiew, Ки́ев, كييف, Kievo, Kiev, etc etc.
It is no secret that massive funding by American money has gone through several channels to prop up anti Russian entities close to Russia’s borders. Ukraine’s orange revolution, Georgia’s rose revolution, etc. etc.
Just for your consideration, what do you think would happen, if Russia massively supports anti-American forces in the US neighborhood in Mexico or … errrr…. Cuba?
Let’s get real:
http://www.voltairenet.org/article181535.html
How much per capita, per hour, per day. Gimme the numbers!
By the way, since apparently you don’t know : the “voltairenet” is run by a very clever Hochstapler, Mr Thierry Meyssan, millionnaire and conspirationist, your typical “revolutionary who knows the way to the cookie jar”, author of the infamous “9/11 : The Big Lie”, where he proves that 1. no plane ever fell on the Pentagone; 2. 9/11 was organized by the “US military industrial complex”; 3. Elvis is alive.
@Kassandra -I always look at sources before I bother to read, especially when it deals with grand conspiracies. I have no interest in reading an article with one single source – Vladimir Maximenko and his “Strategic Cultural Foundation” in Moscow. No matter how many different names he puts on the blogs, they are very easily traceable.
It is very sad that a country with such accomplishments and continuing promise must find refuge in a myriad of imagined conspiracies that see 90% of the world allied against it. This is difficult to understand, I am sure, but the world does not care enough about Ukraine to spend so much time and money on it. Ukrainians seem to care a lot, however.
In English, the country is Kyiv. In Polish, it is Kyiw. No other name. The country itself has made it very clear. It is Kyiv. KIEV is Russian, not Ukrainian. That fact that other countries and individuals refuse to recognize the clearly stated name of Ukraine’s capital city has nothing to do with the name itself.
The English Language paper of record is The Kyiv Post. The maps provided by the country show “Kyiv.” I assume Russians would not want to be called Ruzzians, or Moscow, Mescew, would they?
I’m sorry, in Polish it’s Kijów (checked in the Polish press). And that seems to be the only thing that’s wrong in your post… All the best.
“In English, the country is Kyiv. In Polish, it is Kyiw. No other name. The country itself has made it very clear. It is Kyiv. KIEV is Russian, not Ukrainian.”
So English transcription are the only ones valid and Russian transcriptions and others are not? I see where you are coming from…
Offensive nonsense. Kiyv is the English transcription of the Ukrainian name. Kiev is the English transcription of the Russian name. Ukrainian is Ukraine’s only official language.
Christy, I don’t know what you are talking about. The author of the article is Wayne Madsen, not Vladimir Maximenko. The network is based in Paris, not Moscow.
Please bother to read the factual information or give valid counterargument. Many of the arguments raised in the article are known facts. Please stop being so ignorant.
Of course, it’s based in Paris – and run by a notorious impostor and slightly deranged conspirationist, with many contacts in similar circles abroad…
“Kyiv” contains a vowel (represented by y) which is alien to English, and hence difficult for English speakers to pronounce. It tends to come out “Kiev” in speech anyway.
Last time I was in Kiev, all the people around me were speaking Russian. Meanwhile, the signs and official notices were in Ukrainian. An odd situation.
“Mescew” has never been an accepted spelling for Moscow in any language.
Argue the issues, not the person. You have no argument.
When a notorious, propagandist liar speaks, you don’t waste your time “arguing the issue”. Toutes proportions gardées, with a Goebbels or a Suslov, the “person” is the only issue.
I’ve just read a rather frightening interview with professor Sergey Markov, another “person”. He doesn’t “rule out” a Russian military intervention in Ukraine (on some, easily manufactured condictions), and states directly that the opposition realizes Hitler’s plans and objectives. Mr Markov, for those who don’t know, is Kremlin’s unofficial mouthpiece.
@Kassandra – Scroll to the bottom of the article you posted. Click the source link, which uses the word “Rusia” instead of “Russia,” Google the blog name that comes up but using Russia instead of Rusia and follow the links.
You posted a link to a notorious, Russian nationalist crazy man.
@Gonout – Thank you for the correction on Polish. Thank you also for explaining the reason why in English the capital city of Ukraine is Kyiv. This is the English version of the Ukrainian word. The language of Ukraine is Ukrainian. Therefore, the OFFICIAL, STATE NAME of the capital city, found on all English-language documents is KYIV.
In Ukrainian: Київ – transliterated using international standards to Kyiv (Ukrainian)
In Russian: Киев – transliterated using international standards to Kiev (Russian)
@Christy – I did as you specified. I can’t find any “crazy nationalist man”. I see a lot of articles, that have a different perspective than what is usually served in the western mainstream media. That by itself doesn’t make it less credible. Argue the issues, not the messenger. What issues are not true or are you taking aim at?
Dear Kassadra, since you seem to know someone pays them, I want in – but not before learning how much I can make for standing there for three months, in the cold. I have been asking that many times, first in 2004, and never got any answer. So maybe you can tell me : how much per capita? per day? per hour? Have the guys who got shot (good, clean job: straight in the head or in the neck) got something extra?
Think rationally. Who’s interest is the advancement of NATO territory? Weakening Russia?
How much?
FYI : the ex-president Yanukovich maed an official declaration today, on Ukrainian television, speaking to the Ukrainian people.
He did it in Russian.
Did he? So did opposition proponent Vladimir Klitchko until recently. Russian is the most commonly used language in Ukraine, despite Ukrainian being the only “official” language now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RussianUseEn.PNG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Ukraine
Your argument about Klichko is shaky, to say the least. Klichko speaks so far as an unofficial leader of a social movement and changes languages constantly.
Yanukovich made an official declaration, speaking as the legitimate president of a country where the only official language is Ukrainian.
You still haven’t answered the first question: how much per capita? per day? per hour?
@Wanderer – That data is 11 years old and pre-dates the first revolution. One year after that data, Ukrainian language textbooks were finally distributed. Moreover, discrimination against Ukrainian speakers became unacceptable (meaning Ukrainian speakers felt more free to self-identify as Ukrainian speakers).
The figures are much different now. Polls since 2009 consistently show that roughly 25%-32% of Ukrainians identify Russian as their language. Roughly 58%- 65% identify Ukrainian as their language. These polls are available on the internet in English.
Christy, I would be glad to get a citation for these recent polls.
The ones I found from 2009 show very different results than what you claim.
Main language in daily use: 52% Russian, 41% Ukrainian, 8% both
Your numbers could be representative for the Western-Central parts of Ukraine only.
Here is the link
http://bd.fom.ru/report/map/ukrain/ukrain_eo/du091015
And it’s supposed to prove what? The poll is five years old. Things change, that’s what regular elections are for (elections, I might add, where you don’t cheat, “now you see me as president; now you don’t, I’m prime minister; peeekabooo, I’m president again!”). You might have noticed several things that happened since the poll. In three months, not one thousand, but several million Ukrainians shall speak in the only legitimate way. If they still consider Moscow to be their best friend, they wil elect – what do I know – Mr Medvedchuk.
@Wanderer – You may start here for more up to date language data:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Ukraine
@Christy – the data I cited is the same you cite “more up to date”. From your link:
In an October 2009 poll by FOM-Ukraine of 1,000 respondents, 52% stated they use Russian as their “Language of communication”; while 41% of the respondents state they use Ukrainian and 8% stated they use a mixture of both.[1]
What is your point? Is it the backward nationalism that still infects much of Europe (and elsewhere) and is the biggest disease of mankind, causing war and destruction? Tribalism is a true cancer for humanity.
Of course you can discuss issues of Janukovich’s policies, but attacking his language is a nationalistic side show. It’s sad to see, how easily the powers at large can “divide and conquer” the masses, particularly in Europe where nationalistic tribalism and old rivalries give plenty of opportunity to go backward in history and undo the ideals and early fruitions of the age of enlightenment.
And I think we should take Russia’s interests damn serious as well, because rightfully Russia is sensitive to the aggressive expansionist US policies, here being played out in the “European bridge head”, with intent of rolling the NATO tanks into the Russian sphere of influence. In fact that is the game that is being played. Georgia, Ukraine, “orange revolution”, “rose revolution”, Georgia-Russia war, etc. All these are actions by the strategists to bring Russia, more precisely it’s resources, under western corporate control, and weaken it’s political weight as a nation in the geopolitical struggle for dominance.
1. Christy (so did I earlier on) gave you the wikipedia article, where, along with yours, there are later polls, from 2010 and 2012, with quite different results. But you pick the one that suits you.
2. No one “”attacked Yanukovich’s language”. I have just mentioned a characteristic fact : the President of a sovereign country, officially addressing the people of this country, speaks not in the official language of this country, but in its second language, which happens to be the official language of its neighbour which, accidentally, used to colonize this country, performing there some quite well known deeds which just might have shuffled the linguistic data a little bit.
3. Your last paragraph is propaganda nonsense. “Russia’s interests” end at the Ukrainian border. State clearly that you consider Ukraine as a Russian protectorate, and the Ukrainian People’s sovereignty – a limited one. THEY decide what they want, in free elections they will hopefully have in three months. If there’s something wrong with these elections (with their legality, not with their results, should they annoy you and Putin), I shall say it just as loudly, as I defend now the Ukrainian people’s right to have them. So would Christy, I suppose.
The rest of this paragraph shows, what else is new, your contempt for democracy and the popular will. Since what’s been happening in Eastern Europe (this “European bridge head”, as you so elegantly call these free nations…) for the last 25 years hurts the interests you so strongly defend – these people can only have been manipulated and/or paid.
At least try not to be so obvious.
“3. Your last paragraph is propaganda nonsense. “Russia’s interests” end at the Ukrainian border.”
Oh dear, another one from the “grrrrreatest nation on earth” who doesn’t know the difference between Lucky Luke and global politics.
But fine with me, if you agree, that the US interests end at the Canadian and Mexican border. Deal?
The rest of your babbling is just nonsense. Nobody denies the right of the Ukrainian people for democracy and popular will. It seems lately there is a certain western superpower that does not really accept the will of the people in almost any country, if it is not in line with their own intentions.
Which “grrrreatest nation on Earth”? I take it as a compliment : if you haven’t noticed English is not my native tongue, it must be better that I thought and let me tell you, buddy, THAT comes as a suprise…
I’m extremely happy to hear that “nobody denies the right of the Ukrainian people for democracy and popular will”. I will tell it in Kiyv, they’ll be extatic.
“It seems lately there is a certain western superpower that does not really accept the will of the people in almost any country, if it is not in line with their own intentions.”
“Almost any country” is a lot. They must be quite busy, the poor bastards.
Yes, that’s my howling to the moon that you hear (should give you a hint in which time zone I live).
Perhaps if one is concerned, one should watch videos of the torture being done against Ukrainians – who protested peacefully for three months, even after five were gunned down.
Forced to parade naked in the snow, nails hammered through their hands, beheaded corpses discovered in the woods, snipers shooting medics. All on video.
Over 100 protesters dead in one day, mostly from snipers. Many also on video, including for example an older woman simply standing. Military defections. Half of the country being ruled by a “people’s council” after no fighting. Members of parliament fleeing. The airborne forces deployed.
Yet, despite dozens of police captured by the “mobs,” and despite administration officials captured in the midst of gunfire, none hurt, none killed – all released by protesters.
Watch the videos, read a variety of sources. Then, you will be prepared with adequate information.
Support for the Ukrainian opposition: you are a free thinker. Oppose them: you are influenced by Russian propaganda…
Some people should change their record already…
@srpskivagnerovac You are free to disagree with the aims of the revolution. No one must believe in freedom, democracy or rule of law. It is certainly easier for some to live within a society where degrees, contracts, and all jobs are bought or muscled and opponents disappear.
But, you are not free to change the facts, as confirmed by videos, photographs, forensics and multiple and varied sources.
Christy, “freedom, democracy or rule of law” ???
You obviously don’t know the parties that are the most active and violent among the opposition forces. They are ultra right wing fractions, ultra nationalists, anti-semites and of course homophobes.
Good luck with your new heroes. Much was wrong with the Ukrainian leadership, but nobody should hope for these forces to raise to power.
The foreign parties who are actively shaping the westernization of the Ukraine, conquering it effectively for NATO troops in the long run, rolling the US sphere of influence even cloeser toward Russia’s doorstep have already realized that, and will now have these ultra-right-wing “useful idiots” sidestepped for the miraculously resurrected Julia Timoshenko, the new useful idiot de jour.
Useful idiots by tens of thousands, many of them getting shot like ducks to please their NATO masters. You should write Heroic Fantasy.
Useful idiots often come in high numbers. There is almost unlimited supply.
Every side was getting shot, or did you overlook the anti-government militias in the streets of Kyiev? (most of the violent people from ultra-right-wing militias with ultra-nationalist and anti-semitic ideologies)
I am very sad for you. Conspiracies, everywhere. So that you know for the future, it is not the Russian transliterated “Julia Timoshenko.” It is the Ukrainian transliterated “Yulia Tymoshenko.” Your spelling easily gives away the sources you read. Please see any Ukrainian English language site for confirmation.
Tymoshenko, by the way, is currently not particularly popular, and she is frail and in a wheelchair. She has been ill for an extended period. She will not be very useful to anyone, it would seem. Yet, the country somehow soldiers onward.
“My” spelling is widely used in most of Europe, for instance in most major German media outlets.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-timoschenkos-rueckkehr-a-955123.html
You seem to be paranoid of anything “Russian” it seems. So much that you see it even in places where it is not. Are you a relative of Zbigniev Brzezinski by any chance? Because he suffered from the same disease.
You linked to a German language article. We were discussing English.
There is no paranoia. President Putin and Foreign Minister Lavrov both state regularly that Ukraine does not exist, and do everything to make that true. I am sorry that my comments – based on first hand, direct knowledge of the country and people being discussed – bother you.
Do you have credible citations of such “regular” Putin and Lavrov statements? I doubt it.
Oh yes, some people should – their originals are Soviet shellacs from the 30s.
Propagnda or no- I keep in mind that artists are enemies of the State. While this might be a general insurtrection, the artists and their institutions will be a target.
It’s been happening everywhere but mostly with velvet gloves and rational unblinking platitudes wrapped in unsupported assertions.
What a place we are building for ourselves.