We were the BBC Proms saboteurs
mainFrom Aliye Cornish, Administrator at Instruments of Time and Truth, one of many activist musicians who handed out EU flags at the Last Night of the Proms:
I am writing this post because, as some of you will know by now thanks to social media, I was involved with the EU flag team presence at the Last Night of the Proms. As a freelance musician I have participated in the Proms for the last few years and this year played in Prom 74, Handel’s Theodora with Arcangelo and Jonathan Cohen. In terms of EU flag presence 2018 was the most successful since the movement started in 2016, with 20,000 flags and quite a lot of berets given out across Hyde Park and the Royal Albert Hall for the Last Night of the Proms. We offered them for free, funded by crowdfunding from the public, and in general people were only too happy to take them. Most of the EU flag team wore t-shirts saying “Thank EU for the music” to help with highlighting the concerns of musicians regarding Brexit. I recognize that there are strongly held beliefs on both sides of the Brexit debate and this statement is not going to be an attempt to debate with those who voted to leave the EU. That is not what this post is for. We are where we are, and at this point many musicians have got legitimate, pragmatic concerns about how our work will function in the future.
These concerns do need unpicking, and it has come to my attention that a lot of people simply aren’t aware of the potential impact that Brexit will have on musicians. We have been accused of all sorts of political high jinks with the EU flag distribution, when really the idea at the Last Night of the Proms 2018 was to open an inclusive debate on the matter and raise public awareness. So I would like to elucidate here, and give you the opportunity to disseminate this message further should you wish.
In a poll by the Incorporated Society of Musicians, a third said that 50% or more of their income comes via work in the other EU member states. Remember that some of those polled will be in salaried jobs with UK orchestras. Personally I would say that at least half of my performing income comes from gigs in the EU.
So, following the vote to leave the EU, where does this leave us? The career of a freelance musician has always been a precarious one, but those of us who have chosen that path have put time and energy into building up a portfolio of work across the EU. Until June 2016 this was a perfectly valid career option. I trained with the European Union Baroque Orchestra (now sadly forced to move from Oxfordshire to Antwerp, with UK nationals now missing this valuable opportunity) and that shaped my route into the profession. My first professional employer when I graduated from the Royal Academy of Music in 2009 was the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra, followed shortly after by a European tour with Sir John Eliot Gardiner’s English Baroque Soloists, with whom I continue to undertake EU touring work. I also work extensively with Paris-based orchestra Le Cercle de l’Harmonie.
As it stands, my colleagues and I have offers of EU work post-Brexit. We have accepted those offers. We hope that the UK achieves a deal with the EU, and we know that in that instance we will retain freedom of movement until the end of 2020, under a transition period. At the moment if I am offered work with an orchestra in Paris, all I have to do is send them an A1 form from HMRC (mine is technically valid until July 2020, but is it?) which demonstrates my status as a UK tax payer, and hop on a Eurostar with my instrument.
If freedom of movement is lost, as it is likely to be following a transition period, then suddenly things are more complicated. I have it on good authority from colleagues who remember the days of pre-EU touring that the whole thing was rather more cumbersome than it is now. Let’s be clear about this, musicians are not simply opposing Brexit because we are lazy and don’t like bureaucracy. The practical application is that with loss of freedom of movement we are suddenly potentially required to provide instrument carnets, work permits, visas, customs declarations… these things take time, energy and money! As it stands, if you tour to the USA with an instrument (as I did 11 months ago) you have to carry a document certifying the materials contained in your instrument. If the customs officials suspect that your instrument contains a banned material then it will be “ceased”. Their word not mine. Now, I accept that it is unlikely that this sort of regulation will be applied overnight on March 29th 2019. But you can understand that no-one wants to risk their expensive instrument being “ceased”. Without a common rulebook, at this point, anything is possible.
It has been 18 months since the UK government ‘triggered’ (why do we have to use this verb?) Article 50. Since then we have heard nothing about freedom of movement regarding services. Nothing. That is simply extraordinary.
I am involved in organizing a tour with the Oxford-based orchestra Instruments of Time and Truth. We go to Spain for a week and leave the UK on March 29th 2019, which is the day that the UK is set to leave the EU. With just over 6 months to go I have no idea if I am supposed to be organizing work permits, instrument carnets, customs declarations for anything going over by road…We have to get paperwork in place for 40-50 musicians. Do we only need paperwork for our return journey? Do we need to demonstrate on our return journey that we left the UK on March 29th, even though that technically wasn’t an issue at the time? Does every member of our choir and orchestra need to apply for a work permit? These take time. I’d like to start on it now if it needs to happen. We have accepted the dates so I accept that this paperwork may well need to materialize. I would just love to know what it is that I have to produce. This is a shocking dereliction of duty by our government.
Going forward, if we do need to generate this paperwork for tours in the EU then realistically the admin costs will need to be added on to our fee. Will a promoter in the EU want to book a UK group, or would they prefer a group from an EU member state operating without the burden of bureaucracy? Ultimately what happens? I imagine that no-one is told, outwardly, “this is because of Brexit”. But the emails stop coming. The phone calls stop coming. This will also be true for freelancers, and I am afraid that it will hit us hard.
If, as has been floated in the media this week, EU nationals are not eligible for special treatment after Brexit, what happens to our orchestras? Do EU nationals playing in the Last Night of the Proms earn the £80,000 a year required to keep their place here?
If Brexit means that EU nationals will be charged higher fees to study at our conservatoires, then how many can afford to come? The net widens outside of the EU. Does the level of talent diminish? Perhaps the professors that they wanted to study with couldn’t stay anyway.
There will be a lot of noise in the press over the coming days about the EU Flags at the Proms. I hope that the message that we are trying to convey will not get lost in that noise. In order to maintain our place on the world stage we need to preserve freedom of movement in the EU.
Please share this message.
Musicians or not, we will welcome your support. To keep the UK as a thriving centre for classical music it is absolutely essential that we retain freedom of movement post-Brexit. Music is borderless. If you enjoy what we do then please help us at a time when our livelihood is under threat.
To support us:
1) The biggest step is to share this post. We’re delighted that you want to share this, so thank you from me and those with whom I stand.
2) If you live in the UK and are really super serious about wanting to support classical music in the UK then write to your MP to ask what is being done to support freedom of movement for creative industries post-Brexit. The BBC Proms is an amazing platform for classical music across the world. We don’t want to lose our place on this stage.
Hang them! Hang them all!
Yes yes yes – and then draw and quarter them.
Thanks Aiyle for this explanation. I saw the word carnet and my blood ran cold remembering the tours we used to do before EU. Aagh!
Mind you flags and berets will not change governments mind they are hell bent on leaving and as it has never been done before it’s a case of the blind leading the blind or headless chickens take your pick.
Sorry for missing spelling your name, predictive text drives me mad and I should have checked.
“Music is borderless.” If this is true, then why was the most beautiful classical music written post-Classical era recognized coming from ‘Nationalistic’ schools? The homogenization of modern music has reduced it into pablum for the masses. Performance wise anyone who loves opera would tell you the erosion of specific national styles definitely affects the dramatic presentation. Perhaps Schoenberg was onto something with serialism.
“‘Music is borderless.’ If this is true, then why was the most beautiful classical music written post-Classical era recognized coming from ‘Nationalistic’ schools?”
It really wasn’t.
“The homogenization of modern music has reduced it into pablum for the masses.”
Not really, no.
“Performance wise anyone who loves opera would tell you the erosion of specific national styles definitely affects the dramatic presentation.”
That one’s simple: No.
“Perhaps Schoenberg was onto something with serialism.”
No, that was just a bad idea. Happens to this day: “Let’s have a musical action every bar number matching the Fibonacci sequence!” No, let’s not. That’s not intellectual but stupid and has as much to do with music as athlete’s foot. You may quote me.
But doesn’t maybe Curious have a case on his first point? Chopin? The Czechs? What if C changed “Nationalistic” to anti-German-hegemonic? Would you go along then?
David R Osborne made the claim on this site last year that “music is tribal” and it occurred to me for the first time that this is right. Isn’t it always the second to march off to war, if not the first?
“But doesn’t maybe Curious have a case on his first point? Chopin? The Czechs? What if C changed “Nationalistic” to anti-German-hegemonic? Would you go along then?”
If you’d use the word hegemonic as “cultural dominance”, then, to some degree, of course. However, the dominance of one culture does not extinct other cultures (it shouldn’t, at least). Maybe it’s even easier in this scenario for the “sub” culture to influence the dominant culture? Because it’s “there”, too, instead of behind another “tribe’s” border. But that’s a people’s fear these days, isn’t it? “Their” (dominant) culture being undermined by foreign cultures? With or without borders, there’s exchange. This is sped up massively in the last century.
In a tribes’ world, with nothing but empty space between these tribes,
music (if they even had some) would be quite different. And it will probably stay this way forever. Is this a good thing? I dare say no.
That’s why I do not think that borders matter culturally. Maybe it’s even the other way round: Culture defines borders.
(I haven’t thought of this matter before, so it was an on the fly thing which I had to condense and structure afterwards. I hope it’s still making sense.)
I have the sense you wish to argue that free exchange is always best for music, but in the course of this thread the idea that music itself is transnational has appeared, that it “wants” freedom from any national considerations, which in my opinion doesn’t fly.
Your “cultural borders” are borders all the same. Look at how impossible it’s proved for Nielsen, as just one example, to get travel visas beyond Denmark. Look at how Martinu’s currency has withered beyond the Czech border, almost incomprehensible. But for now at least it seems he requires native support, to stay alive. And look at all the 19th-century composer rhetoric, from outside the German-speaking world, about the “heaviness”, “conservatism” &c of what they took to be the central German school and the various liberations they proposed, based by-the-way on the folk music of their own country.
This is not to stop hating the re-imposition of national borders on Euro-classical, a burden and maybe for many a disaster. The dominion of petty officials. Hitler’s father was a minor customs official, if I recall.
I’ll have to think about that. Thank you!
BTW “tribal” isn’t just national borders, but the more common separators, such as age, class, ethnicity, personal psychology. Tastes in pop music and performers are formed from about age 12 and seem to close about a decade later; look on YT discussion threads for the often-angry chasms dividing people just a few years apart in age.
Even groups are becoming tribes unto themselves — who can forget what happened when rap artists Booba and Kaaris were booked on the same French flight — the airport had to be shut down for four hours! Not to speak of the CardiB/Nicki Minaj thing the other day. Love love Not!
Then there’s the Stockhausen claque…
“BTW “tribal” isn’t just national borders, but the more common separators, such as age, class, ethnicity, personal psychology.” & “Even groups are becoming tribes unto themselves”
Which kind of proves my point that nowadays borders don’t matter, doesn’t it?
” — who can forget what happened when rap artists Booba and Kaaris were booked on the same French flight — the airport had to be shut down for four hours! Not to speak of the CardiB/Nicki Minaj thing the other day. Love love Not!
Then there’s the Stockhausen claque…”
Just think soccer (or any other local rivalries). Again, I think that proves my point: The borders don’t matter, because there’s borders (albeit informal) within borders. And when comparing these rap artists (which I have to admit I’m not familiar with), you will find fans on both sides of the (formal = geographical) borders.
I thought about your
“I have the sense you wish to argue that free exchange is always best for music, but in the course of this thread the idea that music itself is transnational has appeared, that it “wants” freedom from any national considerations, which in my opinion doesn’t fly.”
I think free exchange, in any aspect, is necessary to avoid stagnation. I, too, do not think that music “wants” anything. How could it. But there’s people that want this or that. That’s why I think that music may very well be transnational. But it doesn’t have to be. Because composers, being regular people after all, want different things, too. Artists may want to sing in English despite it not being there native tongue, because it will probably mean that there’s a larger potential audience. But then there are numerous artists who decide not to follow this path. In other words, there’s borders where we want them to be. It’s an individual choice and not contradicting trans-nationalistic aspects of music or whatnot. It just coexists.
Good point re. Chopin; he wrote some of the finest music to have ever come out of France… wait… what?
Get over the result ! That blue flag with stars is a symbol of control,inefficiency and failure and the UK electorate gave its verdict !
Much like the red, white and blue one then.
There is nothing in this excellently written post that questions the result. Did you not read all of it, or did you just make assumptions about the content?
I’m all for Cornwall seceding from the Union. I’m sick of the London centralized inefficiency and control. Also the Scots should and will secede from the bloody Union.
Sorry, but this is offensive. The Brexit brigade didn’t accept the 1970s vote so why should people committed to remain accept the leave vote?
And in any case, political debate in a democracy means regular elections. We don’t have one election and then the winner is in government for life “the Tories won the election in 1713, we don’t need another vote”.
You should try to win debates by winning the battle of ideas not by shutting down debate and labelling the other side “unpatriotic”. The electorate do have the right to change their mind.
This was Ken Clerke’s point, delivered very eloquently in a Commons debate. It’s obviously true. The other side has somehow managed to swamp it, along with all thinking.
I’m afraid that idea is specious. I am one of the millions, who voted forstaying in the EEC( note that carefully ) in 1975, and have now voted for leaving the EU ( note that even more carefully ) in 2016. I would still be in favour of the EEC arrangement provided the ever closer union idea were consigned to the flames
On the other hand, maybe leaving the EU will give us a “UK jobs for UK musicians” scenario…..that would be nice.
I’m against the bloody Scots taking up any good English jobs.
Are you joking?
Not at all, Mylady! I‘m death serious.
Dividing between Scots and English is just the beginning. Imagine all the opportunity for ‚divide and conquer‘ within the English districts alone!
Isn‘t that lovely? All that opportunity for hate and xenophobia and false sense of grandezza. Having even too many options to blame others for one’s own misery. Lovely times.
Too true.
It was just such atomization that the crowned heads of Europe dreamed of during the American Civil War. Why, had the South won independence, should the disintegration stop at just two parts? Especially when so many old world states were ready to dive in and arm fresh combatants? Were there not already dozens of what the Americans call States, each with borders all drawn up, lacking only gaily uniformed armies of their own?
But I can’t join Tamino, with the popcorn, laughing at the screen when the British breakup begins. The price of independence will be too high, and never-ending.
Imagine for example, Scotland, now that it’s oil is mainly gone, bordered on both coasts by daisy-chains of golf courses, every single one owned and operated by Donald J. Trump (& sons). My vision of golf-course Scotland is well developed and nightmarish enough to be produced as a series of movies. But even that doesn’t compare to what the future could hold for East Yorkshire… Fly away Kate Rusby fly, twill be no place for nightingales.
What a charmless person you are. And not very bright, either.
Oh ja, Mephistopheles.
Das ewig Britische
zieht uns hinan!
Faust an Wagner:
Du weißt nicht mehr vom Leben, als das Vieh,
Trotz deiner sämtlichen Anatomie.
Very suitable for you, don’t you think?
)And no, not Goethe’s rather anodyne Spirit of Negation in his tediously over-long and over-rated work, but the altogether much more interesting Mephistopheles of Nikolaus Lenau).
I chortled. This is slipped disc comment of the year for me.
“UK jobs for UK musicians”
Like cab driving and janitorial stuff? That’s where the most jobs will be created when the Brexit happens.
Until self-driving cars and floor-waxing robots. Then even this triumph will dissolve.
Good point.
The EU is a wonderful thing. Happy to see some musicians in the UK stand up for it.
Do tell us what the musicians are standing up for, I am sure those in the North of England and parts of the Midlands who voted out (and suffered disproportionate levels of economic discrimination compared to the SE of England) are desperate to be enlightened and educated by their betters who inhabit the classical music cocoon.
Someone over there has bought a pig in a poke, with their obsession over “elites” of this kind or that, with the whip of the scorn of such elites real or imagined.
Those who you are presuming to represent, with your sarcasm, will be the most hurt in the general decline they’ve been tricked into catalyzing.
Good luck with your recovered sovereignty, your empire of accumulated high regard, your lofty isolation, your wave-ruling and the rest of that applesauce; good luck with the tighter new embrace of your American and Chinese pals, as they mosey round to pick you clean.
My, Buxtehude, you’re a charmer, aren’t you?
Nowadays, we have an instrument passport and require a carnet each time we tour, which is usually two months in total each year.( Even when individually travelling this is required.) Simple to attain. Then there’s the endangered species regarding tortoise shell, ebony, ivory etc…on bows and instruments – pre 1920 made isn’t a problem yet one requires proof! (USA is the worst country for enforcing this criteria.) A nightmare, but in good old British fashion it’s a case of Keep Calm and Carry On! Did Handel, Haydn and co have any travel restrictions? The EU shall continue to book us!
“Did Handel, Haydn and co have any travel restrictions?”
No.
I understand the post.and support freedom of travel
Niggle
Can we please find a term other than creative industries? The term implies some industries are non-creative e.g. engineering is not currently included in the definition. Personally, I know of no industries where creativity has not played an increasing part in recent times.
Not only is music borderless, it is also priceless. Impeding the free movement of amateur and professional musicians will surely make performances less frequent and more expensive. Is this what we want?
Orchestras and professional musicians travel to the 94% of the world that is not the fracturing and declining EU.
We’re leaving. Get over it.
90% of relevant opera business happens in Europe. Being cut off that market is excellent news for opera singers..
Where do you get the amazing figure of 90% from? Please provide the evidential source (if you can).
But in any case : did you know that long before the “European Union” came into being orchestras, pianists and, yes, singers travelled throughout Europe and concertized? As far back at least as Haydn, Handel, Chopin, Liszt. From your comment, perhaps not.
Tune in again next year Fuzzy: Those nice blue flags will be back again…that’s a promise.
The latest position of our Government is that we are not really leaving. We are entering a “halfway house” of largely taking the regulations and contributing to the budget. Whether you think this better than leaving or not, I suppose, depends on your position. But, all sides agree, it is clearly worse than remaining.
Kites next,although they will be more difficult to find than,for example, than a decent tailor.
A most interesting article. You are, I fear, entirely right to be worried — especially if the UK crashes out without a deal next March.
Whatever one’s views about Brexit per se, it is truly shocking that the UK Government has provided so little information to citizens whose careers are now in real danger of being derailed. The EU has been far more frank about the matter, and its Notices to Stakeholders are a good place to start getting relevant information. You might also benefit from following Dr Richard North’s eureferendum.com blog. Dr North is a long-term Eurosceptic (not a view I share), but he has a remarkable knowledge of the various EU treaties and hence an unusually precise understanding of the likely consequences when we find ourselves outside their purview. His blog will not be comfortable reading for you, but it is well informed (as are some of the regular commentators below the line). It includes, inter alia, detailed posts describing the likely effect of Brexit on the UK horse racing and Formula 1 industries (both of which stand to be devastated). As far as I remember, Dr North has not written specifically about classical music but, if you were to ask him nicely, it might interest him to do so.
Finally, may I correct one point of some importance in your article? It is not the UK’s membership of the EU per se that has permitted the comparatively free movement of musicians over the past 25 years. Rather, what has made that possible has been our participation in the single European market. It is possible to remain in that market without being in the EU (as Norway does). Indeed, a major theme of Dr North’s blog is that this is now the only way to achieve Brexit without a major economic dislocation (either in March 2019 or, if the Withdrawal Agreement is signed, at the end of the transition period in December 2020).
“A most interesting article. You are, I fear, entirely right to be worried — especially if the UK crashes out without a deal next March.”
And crashing it will.
“It is possible to remain in that market without being in the EU (as Norway does).”
Sure. But Norway accepts the free movement of labor. And that’s one of the things that GB was trying to get rid of with the Brexit. They would look even more like fools if they back off of this promise now (backing off would be the sensible thing to do, but that would mean EU like conditions without even having a vote in the EU). Now they try to cherry pick. And the EU has to prevent this at ALL costs, because it would weaken their position when dealing with its remaining members (threatening to leave the EU must never be a worthwhile undertaking). Simple game theory. GB will struggle economically, then blame the EU… Yep, joyful years to come.
Ah, der deutsche Michel : Überheblichkeit, Besserwisserei und Belehrung.
Also alles wie gewohnt.
As a German émigré I have to say you gotta point.
But its good to lighten up… here we go :
“How many Germans does it take to change a lightbulb ?
Just one, we are efficient and humourless.”
Ha, very good! So I’m sure you will know the similar Polish/Soviet/etc. Communist-era joke about how many it takes to change a light bulb?
Three : One to hold the ladder, the second to change the bulb, and the third to keep an eye on the pair of intellectuals.
“Ah, der deutsche Michel : Überheblichkeit, Besserwisserei und Belehrung.
Also alles wie gewohnt.”
Thank you, we aim to please. Now you’re piss*d because I’m arrogant and you think I know it better and try to tell you, then you’ll be p*ssed because I was right, did know it better and people like you didn’t listen. Oh my.
That may be how they will Feel, but their thinking will come to the rescue: we were screwed, betrayed!
I fear this progression will poison British life for many years to come, the most hopeful outcome suggested by the old Soviet self-parody from the 1980s, its definition of communism in Russia as the slowest and most painful route from capitalism back to capitalism.
But what will casino Britain have become by then? Can it be welcomed back?
“we were screwed, betrayed!”
And the right (right) people will know how to channel this.
“I fear this progression will poison British life for many years to come, the most hopeful outcome suggested by the old Soviet self-parody from the 1980s, its definition of communism in Russia as the slowest and most painful route from capitalism back to capitalism.”
It was their choice. They choose badly, but that’s their prerogative.
“But what will casino Britain have become by then? Can it be welcomed back?”
Why not? But the EU will have to change, too. It’s a bad idea having potential fascist countries like Hungary in the EU without having real means to deal with it. And it’s equally bad that these countries may veto any changes regarding this matter. And we so have to get rid of unanimity. I still think the EU is a great concept. But it must not be exploited by its own members. If Europe wants to maintain its global role against China and the US, there’s not much choice but to speak with one voice. This will mean sacrifices in sovereignty (or, in some cases, expelling countries that do not share this common goal), but the alternatives I see are far worse.
Brettermeier:
Getting rid of the national veto is a bad idea. Insisting on unanimity is what make the EU so powerful in trade negotiations.
in the wrong hands, German humour is no laughing matter.
You are right that EFTA requires freedom of movement, but I would not rule out an emergency application to rejoin if the UK does crash out next March. ‘Looking foolish’ will then have to be weighed against the need to mitigate the economic consequences of a chaotic Brexit. Of course, what the other EFTA states make of this remains to be seen.
“You are right that EFTA requires freedom of movement, but I would not rule out an emergency application to rejoin if the UK does crash out next March.”
Yes, and the EU will not accept it. That’s harsh, but in doing so other countries are discouraged to try the same, hoping for a better outcome knowing they might back off of their respective -xit the last second if negotiations fail.
“‘Looking foolish’ will then have to be weighed against the need to mitigate the economic consequences of a chaotic Brexit.”
But that’s just GB’s side. They would need a second referendum or otherwise they wouldn’t heed the people’s will. In doing so you would undermine the concept of referendums as a whole, thus decreasing trust in democracy and dividing the country even more. And of course it will the EU’s fault because they pressured poor Britain back. And we have learned that you may do a referendum about the same stuff over and over again, so why not once more?
Somehow they achieved to position themselves and the EU in a way that despite the outcome, all sides lose. Well, except Russia. Отлично сработано!
Almost as though Professor Woland and his retinue have been at work again, how else could all these have been tied up so neatly in knots?
“Almost as though Professor Woland and his retinue have been at work again, how else could all these have been tied up so neatly in knots?”
One has to admire this. I deeply respect (while resenting his or her motives) whoever came up with this. A piece of art.
Brettermeier writes: “Yes, and the EU will not accept it [emergency EFTA application]”.
Er…I am pretty sure they will accept it since it doesn’t require the EU to sacrifice any principles. Britain would be playing by EU rules.
Yup
Really joyful, and I am serious ! The doom laden remainers have failed with predictions at every turn!
this will not change a thing it is useless trying the silent majority who sit at home watching the proms have voted that is the end of it
How does the “we are the Proms saboteurs” headline link to the subsequent posting ?
The article headline in today’s Sunday Express referred to “remoaners” as having “sabotaged” the Last Night of the Proms.
An ill-informed and bad mannered manifestation at the Proms by people who were not paying attention to their history lessons at school. One newspaper wrote : Is there anything as weak, as petty or as demeaning to our nation as the waving of EU flags during Last Night of the Proms? Yes, it was shameful.
Brexit will not damage musicians in any way at all – as, indeed, it did not do so before 1972. It is a huge opportunity for us all. I travelled all over Europe from 1957 unimpeded by any formalities – a passport covered it all and I worked 7 years in France & Belgium.
A federal EU, controlled from Brussels by unelected (and over-pensioned) arriviste politicians, is not what Europe needs. We joined the EEC which was the right thing to do but our government tricked us into agreeing to the adoption of steps that have led us into supporting an organisation aimed at creating a Federalist EU (which is now in economic decline). We are so lucky to be escaping now. Get real. And grow up. There’s a bright future out there.
Well said! A sensible and measured antidote to the ever-moaning and whining Europhiliacs in this and similar threads on Slippedisc.
Well said sir. I and many others of my generation actively signed up to, and fully supported membership of the EEC as we saw the benefits of an “economic community”. What we never signed up to was the development of a federalist state that would reduce the country to lap dog status. I remain very pro Europe, I have visited (and still do) many countries and indeed worked in several (and it does amuse me to be branded an insular “little Englander” and isolationist) and I see many people from these countries as both friends and professional colleagues. But I have no wish to become a member of the European Union Federalist State.
“I travelled all over Europe from 1957 ”
If you really think that you can apply these 60 years old settings to today, well, that’s “informed”.
“I travelled all over Europe from 1957 ”</i?
John Deacon said ‘from’. In German the equivalent word is ‘ab’. In other words, meaning ‘since’.
Just to help you with your obviously deficient knowledge of the English language. No need to thank me.
“Just to help you with your obviously deficient knowledge of the English language. No need to thank me.”
That is so nice of you! Would you mind to translate the his whole post, preferable word by word, in bite sized posts?
1957? How about 1947 — red carpet for those Windrushers! No EU needed. Or 1710 — nobody asked G F. Handel for a passport in that golden era. Brussels wasn’t even sprouts in the Belgian soil back then.
But with all due respect to Brettermeier, things may actually remain as was for Mr Deacon, once Britain has devolved to a mere “third party” island washed by a garbage-strewn sea. I imagine his shiny British face as presented to the customs and immigration barriers of Europe, and more important his habit of command, the fruit of many generations’ breeding, the air that sweeps all obstacles aside.
[Cue: the rising sun; bring up Music: Billy the Kid 1. The Open Prairie]
Or would Gilbert & Sullivan be more appropriate?
Look, you can object to being in the EU if you like, that is a perfectly legitimate position. But to complain that the is some Brussels super-state oppressing us is just bizarre.
Pretty much all EU regulations have to be agreed by all the countries in Europe, which includes Britain. What has happened is that the British government has spent the last 40 years agreeing rules in Brussels and then coming to Britain and denying responsibility for these rules when some people find them unpopular (instead of defending the decisions the government here has made). You are just showing you are a sucker for believing this explanation.
I seem to remember lots of foreign musicians working in the UK before we joined the Common Market.
In earlier days quite a number moved to England including Handel.
I presume these Remoaner musicians are not able to work anywhere else outside the EU if so why will things change next year or does the EU have repressive laws restricting entry, if they do then it does not seem to work very well against all the illegal immigrants.
To all Brussels Politburo worshippers: have no fear, Theresa “the Appeaser” May is a hard core remainer and will produce a “BRINO”– Brexit in name only.