Not a male chorus any more
OrchestrasIn our report on Wednesday’s performance of the Babi Yar Symphony at the Royal Festival Hall, we found cause to praise the ‘impressive performance of the London Philharmonic male chorus’.
This drew a prompt request from the chair of the chorus to remove the noun ‘male’ when describing the LPC.
There are apparently two trans-women in the LPC’s tenor and bass sections.
The original edition of the Shostakovich score was published for ‘bass solo, male choir and orchestra’.
Some editions have now adjusted that to ‘bass solo, bass choir and orchestra’.
“You couldn’t make it up” is the only comment that springs to mind. Sad indeed when one remembers what a great work this symphony is…
Now I am (even more) confused. So the trans-women (originally men, yes?) are now trans-women (part of a campaign that demands access to women’s sports trophies and women’s toilets) but they still want to be in a male choir? Presumably their voices suit the tenor/baritone/bass parts still? And now that the choir mentioned have dropped the “male” part of their name, can all women whose voices match now join freely? Of course any of the afore-mentioned could join a mixed choir with little attention or fuss paid.
A salutary tale about pumping up the tyres of fringe dwellers, filling their heads with super-important levels of entitlement.
Should music not be welcoming? And accessible? They sounded great and were an impressive part of the work – if you listened to a recording how could you tell.
If someone’s voice matches what is artistically necessary, who would care what they look like or what they call themselves?
I would like to know if any women assigned female at birth sing tenor or bass in top choirs
Have you never seen a choral society with women tenors? Mine has about as many women tenors as it has men. We have all been familiar with this concept for decades, until suddenly apparently you lose all contact with reality. People singing whatever voice part is appropriate for them is normal.
Future of classical music is in Asia…
And thank the deity of choice for that!!
I’ll have you know that the bright future of classical music involves Putin sympathisers like Gergiev raking in lots of money from touring China every year
Doesn’t the objection by the chorus chair confuse sex and gender, which, we are sometimes told, are distinct?
No. Happy to help.
The Choir notes that singers are classified by voice type/range, not sex/gender. Or have you never encountered a score that says “for upper voices”? I have, and not recent printings…
I suggest you look again at the words of the choir chair. That was what I was talking about. *Those* words appear to confuse sex and gender, via the claim that it should not be called a *male* choir because of someone’s *gender* identity. Which seems to imply that a female gender identity means you’re not male
If the trans community has their way with young kids, the long-gone tradition of castrati may make a comeback.
Castrating boys is reversible, except for being sterile, with testosterone. However, “gender affirming” surgery is not.
Still a male chorus. Two confused dudes doesn’t change their basic biology (only their bizarre social construct needs affirming).
Given that this comes down to only two specific, if unspecified, individuals, why don’t we all keep calm and respect their privacy and (legal) right to define their own identity.
And listen to the music which you found cause to praise.
What about the same right of all the others?
Yes, Paul, you also have the right to defining your own identity and to your privacy. No one suggested otherwise!
And that identity may be…male!
Though the modern talk of identity is pretty well a mare’s nest anyway. A generation ago we could say all we wanted to say about ourselves and others without every using “identity” or any of its cognates. Alas, “I’m British” has become “British is (part of) my identity.” (This change runs parallel to swapping “It’s what I am” to “It’s who I am.”
I don’t know what ‘defining my identity’ means. There are facts about myself that I can mention, that’s all. Beyond that, I don’t know what is contributed by wittering about one’s ‘identity’.
Yes, Paul, you are free to define your own identity as male. I promise, not one is questioning that.
When I applied for my current job, just to be sure I got it, I identified as a brilliant secretary with a track record of 5 highly-paid earlier positions, it was not true of course but I have the right to identify in the way I want, being a modern woman. So I got the job and now I am identifying as a PA who struggles to meet the standards because otherwise I’m fired again.
Somehow I don’t find it all fair but don’t quite know in which way. Identifying is more difficult than I thought.
Sally
They have obviously used their legal right; I’m addressing the logical and scientific truths.
The science is settled.
Absolutely, can’t see any Welsh male voice choirs changing to bass baritone and tenor choir any time soon.
You could use the term “lower octave”.
Interesting that you reference to Shostakovich’s understanding of sex and gender. I’m reminded of Rossini’s instruction that “Douze chanteurs des trois sexes” should be used to perform his Petite messe solennelle.
Sounds more like an instruction by Erik Satie!
When it comes to sex and gender madness, the classical music world failed to fight against the camel’s nose in the tent: the “gay men’s choruses” that started to be widely booked for concerts almost half a century ago. So, no surprise that now this is what we get.
Being gay and being trans are entirely different.
Way to be a homophobe. And a transphobe. What are you scared of?
Oh good lord, you twit. Get over that witless crap. Nobody’s afraid of you. We just think you’re daft and totally inept in the sciences.
If that is addressed to me…
1. Oh, that sad old polemical move of accusing another person you disagree with of being ‘scared’ of something or other. So many below-the-line commenters go in for this sort of amateur psychiatry…
2. Distinguishing gay and trans is not remotely a way to be a homophobe, nor to be a transphobe. I’m gay. It never crosses my mind that I might be a woman. Nor does it cross my husband’s mind that he is or might be a woman. Everything is what it is and not another thing (as Joseph Butler said–not Judith.)
To be clear, I was referring to ‘disgusted classical fan’s’ comment. I agree with you. I hate the suggestion that a gay men’s chorus is a bad thing.
Yeah, banning people from singing is definitely how we’ll fight the decline of classical music practice. A+, you’ve definitely cracked the case here.
Do these trans-people dress as women or men? Few male choirs can afford to turn people away if they can sing the pieces, but all this one needs to do is impose a choir uniform.
Of the members of that choir, some may be gay, most are probably straight, there may be the odd bisexual. Should they be defining their sex lives to Slippedisc too?
The London Philharmonic Male Voice Chorus faced some dilemmas when these two turned up.
Seems to me you’re imagining “dilemmas” where there are none. What exactly in the choir’s response suggests anguish and torment?
To be even more specific, and to correct an inaccuracy in Lebrecht’s report, the London Philharmonic *Choir* (not Chorus) is a mixed-voice choir (with only the lower voices performing the Babi Yar, of course); so why you imagine they would have had “dilemmas” about concert dress and membership is…odd.
The score calls for a male chorus. If the two individuals no longer identify as male, perhaps the simplest solution is for them to skip any performance or composition with a male chorus.
Does identifying as not male mean you really are not male?
Tail wags dog. Read all about it!!
Why in the name of heaven do they give in to the demands of these crackpots?
Rename it: The London Philharmonic XY Chorus.
This comment section is atrocious – how dare you be so bigoted. What difference does someone’s gender make – the chorus sounded impressive no matter the makeup and that should be the only metric of judgement.
I’m as woke as anyone (or so I thought), but that’s just silly.
If Shostakovich called for a male chorus why were women, trans-gender or not, included? They took up spaces that could have been used by men.
Do they have the right voice part? Does it sound as it should? If so, where’s the issue?
I swear, some of you are just desperately looking for reasons to be miserable.
“Male” refers to their sex, not gender – even if their gender is female, if they sing tenor or bass their sex is still presumably male – which is nothing to be ashamed of!
It _is_ written for a bass chorus, though. There are no tenor parts. I know a few first tenors who have skipped a chance to perform it because the parts were uncomfortably low for them most of the time.
Doubly curious is that the Guardian review is accompanied by a picture purportedly of the rehearsal for the concert which includes a complement of the LPC’s higher voices as well… There are no altos in DSCH13 or in Schoenberg’s Survivor, so what’s going on?
Answering my own question: the picture, incorrectly captioned by the Guardian, is of rehearsals for an earlier LPO/LPC/Boreyko performance.
If you get to force me to call you any gender based on what you are comfortable with, why can I not call you the gender you are since that is what I am comfortable with? This is all a perversion of science and of life. It’s very sad to watch this delusion grow.
Why not rename the chorus thus: For singers who own a penis, who used to own a penis, who no longer wish to own a penis, and who would rather like to own a penis.
During a break in a rehearsal with the choir, one of the singers asked the conductor Andrey Boreyko to avoid addressing the singers as gentlemen, as some members of the choir did not like this form of address.Probably the FB reaction was caused by a complaint from some of these singers?
Yes, and of course we can’t have that anyone says anything ever that possible might not be liked by someone else! Dear God, an opinion! Or worse, a statement of fact!! No no no NO!! It might melt a snowflake!
And so woke nonsense intrudes in the sphere of extremely important and pertitent works of art. The term ‘politically correct’ originates from the Soviet Union, where thinking was something controlled by the State. No doubt DSS would recognise quite a bit currently taking place in the free and democratic Western world. I am amazed the performance was ‘allowed’ to take place considering the first movement speaks of the mass murder on Jews in Ukraine during WW2 and throughout history.
Once again the denizens of SD prove the old saying that the amount of time spent on something is inversely related to its importance.
So you have two trans individuals – male by birth who feel more comfortable as female – who have tenor or bass voices. So of course appropriate to sing that part. Generally we’ve associated “male” with tenor, baritone, and bass, and “female” with soprano and mezzo, and thus the label on the score.
I would think the world could survive just fine with leaving the “male choir” label on the score, and let anyone who can sing it, sing.
So what exactly is the issue here?
The issue is why they need to delete ‘male’.
Really, this is SO FAR down on the list of things to worry about.
Get real!
If men can opt into womanhood, then white people can identify as black.
When I taught at Westminster Choir College, we could, in a general way, draw a direct correlation between the amount of Petulance dribbling out of a would-be singer’s vocal cords and the amount of talent a neglected Pavarotti had to offer. There should be a license required of all those who wish to reform art in their own worthless matrix. This preoccupation with sex (or lack thereof) has become a disease.
Just wait until you find out about countertenors…is there no end to the woke mind virus in the liberal arts?
An awful lot of bigotry and ignorance masquerading as common sense or science here.
If the choir doesn’t wish to identify as male so what.
Apparently they made a remarkable contribution to a masterpiece.
What happened in the Schoenberg?
An even more harrowing and striking piece perhaps.
Are you forgetting what this music is about?
If you’d said “Men’s voices” they might have had a point. “Trans women” are male.
How remiss of a composer to be so thoughtless in his requirements. That said, I admire this work. I had the good fortune to be present at the first performance in this country.
Get with the times boomers…
Is there necessarily any merit in ‘getting with the times’, whatever vthat may mean?
It is not in the least unusual to have female tenors in a choir. They are still tenors!