How Dudamel handles mistakes in audition
OrchestrasLA Phil violist Mick Wetzel has collected a range of insights that he’s gathered from sitting with Gustavo Dudamel in auditions for new players. His thoughts are published on Laurie Niles’s site violinist.com and are worth reading – not least because this is a musioc director who is really committed and present in auditions.
The over-booked next generation hardly bother to attend.
Here’s one tip:
First of all, don’t make a completely mistake-free performance your number-one priority. As Gustavo said, when you are playing “not to make a mistake,” then “there is already a mistake, because the mistake is thinking that way….Change that way of thinking.”
And if you do make a mistake during the audition, don’t panic. I promise that your perception of a mistake is a little distorted. Move on. Make the next note, the next phrase, the next excerpt even more beautiful than anything that preceded it. We give positive consideration to candidates who show poise and resilience.
More here.
All auditions are rigged anyway. Always the son or brother of pal of some white guys. I’ve taken soooo many auditions and never won, so I am obviously an expert here. We all want gigs, so let’s boycott unfair auditions!
Your username speaks for itself, so no wonder you never won an audition and became a sour grape.
Leonard Bernstein: “… one little but loaded hint: Remember that a symphonic concert is not a gig. Enough said.”
The LA Phil hired 7 people last season, 6 of whom were women. Seems like your view of the audition world is a bit off…
Same old story. Look we hired 6 whole women! Wooow See how fair and balanced we are. Please. When your orchestra is at 50% women then it will be ok to speak. Until then, …shh.
In the UK that boat has long since sailed, try counting the ‘white men’ in UK orchestra string sections…..
There was not one non-white face in the enlarged LSO on Sunday night.
Keen observation Norm!
But what a fabulous concert that was…
Orchestra editions really are a hellscape expressing most of the infinite fountain of evil that is the world of classical music. And while I don’t fully believe the lines above are representative of anything, they are at least a positive light in the abyss.
The now heavily under-booked old generation (one name comes to mind, I don’t know why) , in between naps and other type of “trials” behind closed doors at the hotel, religiously attends all “blind” auditions because they have to make sure the daughter of the concertmaster and the pupil of their old buddy get hired.
They also need to make sure that principals who are too good are kicked out of the orchestra lest the old guard gets jalous and made to look – and sound- even worse than they already do.
Seems to be a change in the wind regarding Dudamel around here. About time. So all those orchestras that hired him from the off were not wrong…
I don’t think anyone “around here” ever suggested that GD wasn’t an excellent musician, or even a net benefit to classical music due to his talent, charisma and marketing value.
But that truth can be held aloft, without contradiction, with the other, less appealing truth: that his path to the peak was forged in Venezuela, and involved many, many years of personal and professional collaboration with a brutal regime whose principal actors continue to steal elections and imprison protesters. These people are GD’s friends. And just five days after they stole the most recent election, he played mambos in Carnegie Hall with the regime-owned orchestra.
I’m sorry, but his excellence in music and obvious profitability seem to forgive – even cover altogether – his moral choices in a way that Gergiev’s musical excellence provides no similar atonement. It seems that some allegiances with dictators are verboten – quite rightly – while others are not only accepted but even seen as cool for their anti-US, left-wing sentiments. (Nobody seems to care, of course, that these dictators – Putin and Maduro – are close allies, politically and militarily.)
And what a pity all of this is. Because the world needs uplift and joy, which a GD concert undoubtedly provides. But history shows us that it also needs courage, self-sacrifice and integrity from people in positions of cultural influence and power. That’s just how it is.
Excellent comment.
Actually, my reference was indeed to those “around here” who not infrequently suggested that Dudamel was all hat and no cattle musically, a view seemingly endorsed by the site-owner. I had noticed a slight defrosting in the pieces posted about him lately; this is the warmest yet.
His personal issues were not in my mind. I know you think they always should be, and perhaps you are right.
But Dudamel was already conductor of the Simon Bolivar Orchestra before Chavez ever came to power, and 6 years later he was gone, to La Scala and his international career, still just 25. I think ‘many, many years of personal and professional collaboration with a brutal regime” is a bit of n exaggeration: for one thing, Chavez’ election was a popular win, after the corruption of Perez, and his early years were helped by the oil revenues, which were still high and led to some improvement in conditions for a time. By the time the planned economy began to fail and the repressions that follow protests over such failures started to kick in, Dudamel was long gone.
His keeping on good terms with the governments of Venezuela was clearly inspired by his wish to keep El Sistema, which has survived many regimes, alive. And he has maintained his association with and support of the young musicians of Venezuela’s orchestras. The National Children’s Orchestra of Venezuela is no more “owned” by the regime than any other subsidised orchestra is by its government, and the “mambos” they played at Carnegie Hall included work by John Adams, Ginastera, Estevez — and Shostakovich’s 5th Symphony.
Maybe keeping the music alive is not as important as Dudamel thinks, but he would hardly be alone on the world in believing that even in hard times — perhaps especially in them — there must be some room for feeding the soul as well as the body.
Maybe he doesn’t do enough. I honestly do not know enough about him to be his judge. But what I see is someone fighting his corner. Certainly not someone like Gergiev, who cosies up to his particular leader at every opportunity, and who profits at every turn from that association. Yes, Dudamel was born and educated in Venezuela, but he has made his own way for a long time now, returning only to try to help the successive generations of young people finding hope through music. I do not find him as black as you paint him.
I don’t know the factual sources for the statement that “The over-booked next generation – Klaus Makela, for instance – hardly bother to attend [auditions].” But let’s assume it’s true.
Press coverage of young hotshot conductors tends to focus on their interpretive abilities in individual concerts or recordings.
But as music directors, they’re also going to have a key role in the selection of individual musicians, a process which shapes the future sound of entire orchestras.
So, aside from the question of whether (globe-trotting and over-scheduled as they are) they actually “bother” to show up at auditions for “their” orchestras, I wonder if they actually have the level of experience and perception to make such case-by-case decisions, i.e., to foresee the effect of single new hires on the overall orchestral sound. I fear they don’t — I wonder if they even understand what has “made” the sound of that orchestra — but would be glad to be happily surprised.
“But as music directors, they’re also going to have a key role in the selection of individual musicians, a process which shapes the future sound of entire orchestras.”
Oh, so how is this at all compatible with the enforced DEI with the Vienna Philharmonic?
I’ve seen lots of VPO bashing, including on DEI issues. This the first time, however, I read about “enforced DEI”. Can you please cite any related credible sources of information? This is a sincere question.
If you need an expert to explain to you that focusing on avoiding mistakes isn’t a good strategy, you shouldn’t be a musician anyway.
Easy to say, but why do you think so many musicians in top orchestras take psychotropic drugs? It‘s for the fear!
Those of us who have won auditions but are now experienced artists have come to understand that there is a particular way and accompanying sound of players that have recently rolled off the music school assembly line. They are the ones that win the auditions. A well-seasoned temperament, depth of experience, artistry, all take a back seat. Who in their right mid on the audition committee wants to hire someone who will upstage you? You want someone with “chops” who will do exactly as they are told.
A mistake or two might be good enough for LA. Don’t try it at Chicago or Berlin.
Dudamel’s experience is entirely based on his expectations from and of LA, or his student orchestra in Venezuela.
Once he settles in NY, his standards will rise.
Good luck.
Having heard both the LAPO and the NYPO recently (the former at Carnegie Hall admittedly where any orchestra sounds better than at Geffen) the LAPO is a fantastic orchestra and certainly not in the NYPO’s shadow.
Yes, he’ll expect to be able to get to and from his place of work without being assaulted.
In 40 years of going to concerts and opera in NY I’ve yet to be assaulted nor have I ever seen anyone assaulted.
The only thing rising at the New York Philharmonic is salary. The only way they’ll improve is if the orchestra brings back Bernstein. Until that happens, low expectations.
The concertmaster purchased a better bow, we see? That might help, a little.
Impressing a New York audience is easy. Bring the sound of the streets to Mozart, the sound of the subway to Mahler, and…they’re used to it. Crank it to 11.
One very interesting recent appointment shows more flexibility than I expected – Tondre as first oboe in Philly. He is a fabulous player no doubt but his sound is entirely European (he sounds like he is guesting from the Berlin Phil) and not at all the Tabuteau/de Lancie/Woodhams “American” school. Having been a listener to the Philadelphia Orchestra at Carnegie for over 40 years every time I hear him (like in Mahler 3 last week) I think “Oh that’s not the right oboe sound for Philadelphia.” Soon enough I am used to it and he’s a sensational oboeist – I wonder if YNS had a big influence? I should add that Battalan played like the GOAT in that Mahler…………
I’m surprised to read about all these orchestra-specific sounds; especially from a cohort which has bullied the Vienna Philharmonic into taking more women, more Asians and more of everything THEY see fit.
I’ve spoken to Daniel Froschauer a couple of times (he often chats to people in intermissions of NY concerts). Trust me, nobody is bullying the Vienna Philharmonic…………
I like your interesting, intelligent comments. Never bitchy.
Thank you. As I have said frequently to anyone willing to listen, in the Classical Music world you meet some of the smartest, nicest people on the planet, and, some of the nastiest, most bigoted, most opinionated ones too. You see that on SD every day.
Just like in any other profession or field.
What does GOAT mean?
Greatest
Of
All
Time.
e.g. when it comes to composers, J.S. Bach (or insert other name) is the GOAT.
Greatest if All Time. It’s internet-speak.
Greatest Of All Time. Commonly applied in the US to sports.figures. A bit of hyperbole from me I admit and I expected fans of Bud Herseth (of which I am one) to be all over me with the thumbs downs……but Battalan is a phenomenal trumpet player.
In the first audition to replace Woodhams, Nathan Hughes was the finalist and offered a trial weeks (he was principal at the Met at the time so he played for YNS) and they decided not to offer him the job. I’m not sure if/when a second round of oboe auditions was held, but Philippe guested and there were FB/Insta photos of him eating at Parc with many members of the orchestra and then it was announced he would be the next principal oboe.
Perhaps not coincidentally the same thing just happened with principal trumpet. Twice they held an audition to replace Bilger, Oct 2022 – no hire, May 2023 trial weeks offered, no hire. Next thing there’s rumors of private auditions, Batallan is guesting as principal in Mahler, gushing Insta selfie posts with him from the Philly brass and then it’s announced that he’s hired.
Right. They took Battalan for Philly Cheese. I am one of the guilty tweeters being enthusiastic about his playing in Mahler 7 when he guested. He is the closest I’ve heard to Herseth with a similar sound and reliability. Plus he has character and doesn’t just “sit there and play” he “leads the orchestra ” like Maurice Murphy at the LSO.
Conductors should NOT be on orchestral auditions. Nor have a say in orchestral appointments.
We don’t care what Dudamel thinks , we care what the musical colleagues think who will have to make music with that player for decades potentially. Yes there are problems with the system, but having conductors and their egos wade in is not the solution .
It worked in Cleveland…..
That‘s some partisan aggressive hyperbole. Of course the conductor should be part of the selection process, if only as one voice among many, but that at least. Conductor participation in auditions should be encouraged, in these days of the absent jetset conductors.
Also go talk to Cleveland. They think it‘s best to leave the selection of new musicians exclusively to the chief conductor (after general auditions and a list of recommendations to the chief). And they believe it worked very well for them over the ages, and they don‘t want to change it!
Hard no. Conductor needs to be listening to auditions from the start. 99% of no hires and trial periods that go nowhere are the direct result of the committee presenting the conductor with options that they don’t like. If the conductor has a voice from the start of the selection process, the few who remain in the final rounds will more likely have universal agreement between committee members.
So I should feel free to audition for Dudamel. Does LA need any trumpet players?
“First of all, don’t make a completely mistake-free performance your number-one priority, there is already a mistake, because the mistake is thinking that way….”what a philosopher, which makes Nietzsche so bland in comparison ….one can only be amazed by these summits of thinking.
[redacted] As I understand it, Maestro Mäkelä was in Chicago a week ago overseeing the finals of two days of auditions in a week he was not scheduled to conduct the CSO, making a special trip in order to participate in the process. [redacted]
He has not done so in Paris or, afaik, in Amsterdam.
And that’s why Mick is a damn fine musician.
Gustavo trying to change the deeply imprinted musically negativistic and specifically US-American orchestra culture: „We do not do mistakes“. Bravo, very difficult to change though, but over time…
As an orchestral musician myself, it’s interesting to me to see how often a primary focus is placed on the issue of “making mistakes” when it comes to orchestral auditions. This is a personal viewpoint, but I feel this obsession with cleanliness and technical perfection has resulted in many orchestras sacrificing artistry and personality in favor of a cookie-cutter, generic and sterile approach, and this includes many orchestras enjoying a worldwide reputation. We do have many legendary recordings from about 40-50 years ago which have rarely been equated since, and in my opinion that is due to a very different selection process for orchestra musicians, as well as to a radically different ethos prevailing in classical music. I am confident that an overwhelming majority of the musicians playing in such recordings would be rejected outright in the first round of an orchestral audition today, because their level of technical proficiency would simply not be sufficient. And yet, the overall result was so much more thrilling and inspiring than it often is today, because we were looking at that time for a full-fledged musician, as opposed to an infallible machine. Likewise, the practice in some auditions to focus solely on orchestral excerpts may simply be wrong, as it reduces musicians to simple cogs in a machine. An audition where one has to play a couple of concertos is so much more telling on what one has to offer musically, and the argument, often made by fellow colleagues, that some people can play very well a concerto but fail to fit into an orchestra is simply hogwash. Someone who can master a major concerto can definitely find a way to become a very good orchestral player, whereas the opposite is not necessarily true — some people may play excerpts quite well and fail miserably in a setting requiring to show one’s full musical personality. In any case, we have very few inspiring orchestras nowadays — the sound is often generic, the inspiration is missing, players often seem to be bored out of their minds, which is why I personally rarely attend orchestral performances, except for the few remaining orchestras in the world which have somehow managed to be spared from this overall trend. And often, the most inspiring performances tend to come from groups made up of young players, for they have still kept their enthusiasm intact and have not yet been damaged by the soul-sucking demands of more established orchestras.
While I generally agree, I have had the experience of playing with young musicians who could pull off a brilliant concerto performance, but were completely lost at sea if asked to sit down and read a Mozart string quartet. They’d been spoon-fed every phrase of their concerto repertoire by their teacher and learned how to play it back as reliably as a CD player. No reason the same can’t happen with orchestral excerpts! There’s a good reason why winning an audition usually only gets you a probationary period, not a tenured job.
What about people who play fantastic but who are a social disaster?
I would never hire somebody from an audition alone. You should extensively try somebody out. Does the new player fit in the group? Is the potential player flexible enough to play all genres, adjust to different ways of playing and various personalities in the orchestra.
French orchestras often ask to prepare a chamber music piece to play with some orchestra members, brilliant because I think that gives really relevant and different information than a solo piece and some orchestral excerpt.
Dudamel was on my audition committee once, I remember playing a really bad first round and hearing him say the thank you. It was really scary.
Whatever one thinks personally about the Dude’s conducting, at least he turns up to auditions and pays those who might play under his baton that respect. That deserves credit in my view.
Sue Sonata Form: “Yes, he’ll expect to be able to get to and from his place of work without being assaulted.”
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Your comment made me both pause and smirk. Although GD does become director of the NY Phil in 2 years, “assaulted” regrettably can apply to so many cities. Or either where GD is coming from or where he is going.
Perhaps only some cities in Asia and a few select ones in Europe aren’t facing a bit of today’s turmoil.
Most orchestral auditions are dog and pony scams. The’yre rigged. Donor’s sons, daughters, orchestral members family, different last names, who’s due, DEI cults, who studied with who, who had sex with someone, etc. How can anyone with a straight face think “blind” auditions are really blind?