Just in: Indiana suspends chair of brass
OrchestrasStatement from Abra Bush, dean of the Jacobs School of Music at Indiana University:
It has come to my attention that allegations were made yesterday against Professor Demondrae Thurman on social media. In accordance with policy, the university has addressed these concerns immediately. Currently, Dr. Thurman is not serving as executive associate dean, chair of brass, or in any instructional position.
The statement follows widespread reactions to a post by Claire Pollock (below), alleging sexual manipulation.
Believe all women unless it’s Tara Reade, right ladies?
Tara Reade’s story was believed exactly as long as every allegation should be – long enough to examine the circumstances and evidence.
Reade had less than none, then she effed off to Russia. I wonder why.
If a complainant is to be believed, at least up to the point you describe, does that mean that the accused should be regarded as a liar from the off?
No. Why would you think this?
Two things can be true – an investigation can be conducted while reserving judgement until completed.
The problem is that we rarely even give accusers the opportunity to make a case in any official capacity. (While often peppering our “reserved” responses with innuendo and shaming.)
But you know this. You’re just here to “not all men!” and “what was she wearing?” women back into concluding that reporting isn’t worth it. I won’t hazard a guess why.
Nice try at weaponizing those select women who false report, though. I’d believe your concern more if you didn’t routine dismiss every other woman.
So the investigating bauthorities can both believe the complainer and believe the opposite account from the accused. Hmm. Not impossible. It is not possible simultaneously to believe that you are the victim of a horrible person and that that other person is not a horrible person but is falsely accused.
The problem is with the word “belief”. That the investigating authorities should take both sides’ accounts seriously is desirable; but you cannot simutaneously believe both sides.
“But you know this. You’re just here to “not all men!” and “what was she wearing?” women back into concluding that reporting isn’t worth it. I won’t hazard a guess why.”
Ooh! Aren’t you the clever one? You know SUCH a lot about me.
Buit, seriously, do stop making things up about other posters. You are as bad as those who make false accusations, aren’t you?
“I’d believe your concern more if you didn’t routine dismiss every other woman.”
I haven’t dismissed anyone., Look, just calm down, attend to llgic, and stop spraying venom over others. You know, your anger DOESN’T justify it!
That “not impossible” in lines 2-3 should be just “Impossible.” Sorry.
“I haven’t dismissed anyone., Look, just calm down, attend to llgic, and stop spraying venom over others. You know, your anger DOESN’T justify it!”
Damn, you’ve got everything but the tipping fedora here. “What about MEE!! I’m the one being hurt here. Just be LOGICAL bro! Why are you so emotional!”
Even on this topic, it’s all about you. Every. Time. Thanks for proving the point.
No, it’s not about me in the slightest. Its about things like logic, truth and justice, whereas you were pasting some demon of your imagination on me.
“Even on this topic, it’s all about you. Every. Time.”
Telling you to calm down doesn’t make the post all about me. And as for your “Every. Time.” (Ooh, the double full stop!)–I am flattered that you have read all the posts I’ve ever made, but they’re certainly not all about me.
Actually, “It’s all about you!” is #4 in the Desperate Poster’s Playbook.
You might also not that posting a view that is mine is not the same as the post being all about me. You are a little confused there, as in many nother places.
And I have never in my life addressed anyone as “bro”. I am not in that tribe, sweetie.
Seems like you are saying that generally if things are thoroughly investigated and the proper authorities decide there is not reason to pursue further, then the allegation has no legs.
I have neither said nor implied this. What I meant was a point about believing. If the investigating authorities are supposed to believe the complainer then they must disbelieve the accused. This might lead to avenues of inquiry that would support the accused not being followed up.
I don’t know if she’s telling the truth and personally I would give Biden the benefit of the doubt since there’s only one accuser but I did notice that a lot people who you would expect to support her were awol just like they were in the case of Clinton’s accusers. So it seems like a double standard to me. Btw, for the record I’m an independent. I didn’t vote for Trump and never would.
This comment seems to suggest that if allegations are investigated completely and not pursued by the proper authorities, then they are baseless. Just like the other case which Norman has been writing article after article about. We agree here.
No one asked you to mansplain. You are only proving Cathleens point anyway that you harbor bias. If the evidence is evaluated and found to be unsubstantiated, then it clearly proves the current narrative being vomited out by the radical woke mob is an organized and coordinated attack on the institutions.
Just FYI – anyone who unironically uses the phrase “radical woke mob” has nothing to say in good faith, and should be disregarded accordingly.
You gotta call it what it is, buddy.
They may be confused but that doesn’t mean they don’t speak in good faith. You do muddle things, don’t you? Have a little think about what good faith is. (Clue: nothing to do with mere religion.)
Or Juanita Broadrick or Paula Jones. Bill Clinton raped them and all they got was ridicule by late night comedians, who derided Paula Jones as ‘ugly’. Bill still commands 750k per speech and that icon of American feminism, Gloria Steinem, threw the accusers under the bus, no problem.
#MeTooOnlyCountsWhenTheySaySo
Sigh. I grow weary of finding out that yet another musician I once respected acts like this.
I also shudder to think what kind of backlash this young woman will be forced to endure, probably right here in this comment section.
She went back to his hotel room?
She was just 18. She made it clear to him that there was to be no nonsense. She trusted this guy, as a musical demi-god.
And stripped off for him…
And after EVERYTHING, she kept sending him sexts, nude photos, vids. So, in the hotel room she did everything because she was scared and didn’t want to say no to him in the moment and felt pressured. Fine. But after the fact? Sitting at home after time had passed, making spank material for the guy. It becomes tiresome to hear from mentally unbalanced women who make months worth of poor choices, let awful men do their deeds, and then can’t deal with their own shame, guilt and responsibility for their part in the situation.
I’m sorry, please explain, in detail, what you mean when you say this.
No innuendo, please clarify *exactly* what you mean.
I think he means that, after a long flirt at the bar, and an establishing of limits (I mean the depth of her naivety is Mariana Trench level) she did indeed go back to the hotel. And, it sounds like she didn’t flat out tell him no, but instead told him why she was “uncomfortable” with sexual activity BECAUSE.. aka, I’m open to it but convince me that my concerns can be addressed, after which, I’ll strip for you. And she did. And on and on and on, poor decision after poor decision. Obviously, the man is a creep and what he did was wrong and inappropriate. Doesn’t sound at all like he forceda anything. There was discussion, LOADS of discussion amd persuasion. Lost in all of this sordid tale is the girl telling us how she flirted back with him at the bar, if at all. One can only assume she did. They closed out the bar! She was drinking Shirley Temples the whole time?! And don’t tell me shebwas underage amd so, not drinking. Get real.
So she deserved this? Please, say it out loud for the entire room to hear.
That she deserved it dows not follow from what the previous poster said. Logic again!
she took her clothes off
You mean insinuation not innuendo. But I mean neither.
After flirting at the bar for hours (remember, they closed out the bar).
And pirouetted naked for him….
What he did was wrong, regardless of how she responded. For that alone he should be fired.
Now how she responded is exactly as child psychiatrists will describe as consistent with behavior of traumatised children. She was still a teenager.
“What he did” ?
What she says he did.
What does he say he?
Do we wait for that part of what happened?
Exactly. What she says he did and then she continues to engage with him for over a year knowing he was married. Disgusting behaviour on both counts. She’s definitely not a victim and this hurts real victims.
“It has come to my attention that allegations were made. . . .”
A trifecta of language: “It” as subject, passive voice, fully abstract.
What this young woman went through was terrible.
A few thoughts. If I go near a pack of famished dogs, I am more likely to be attacked that if I don’t, right? It’d be great to live in the world where no matter what one does, safety is guaranteed if one says ‘no’ at any point in time, whether after 1 drink or 10. But common sense plays a role. Would you say it’s my fault if I count money in a bad neighborhood on the street and get attacked? I should be able to do that without anyone beating me up, no? I wasn’t hurting anyone.
To paraphrase the great Dave Chappelle, if you are not a nurse, why are you wearing a nurse’s uniform?
So she deserved this? Please, say it out loud for the entire room to hear.
It’s insane how the more things change, the more they stay the same….
That she deserved it does not follow from what the previous poster said. Do try to think a little more carefully.
So in this scenario, Thurman is a pack of famished dogs, and rather than seeing him as a mentor and inspiration, his students (including, presumably, his male students, you know, what with the famished dogs and all) should have seen that he was, in fact, a pack of famished dogs and not gone near him. In which case, of course, there’d have been no reason for him to have a job at all.
Indeed, that might have been a win-win. And all it would have required was Thurman taking off his human costume and revealing himself as a pack of famished dogs!
The guy for sure is a scumbag. And he plays a useless instrument, unless you play in a marching band. I could barely see him in the picture with the girl. Good thing he was smiling.
Seems like he has a lot in common with the sheriff of Rock Ridge…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=493pL_Vbtnc
And he probably has one of these cards in his wallet…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS7GHUOBoRA
His behavior is indefensible so I won’t even go there. But what about her responsibility for her own injury? She spells it out? She has a boyfriend. She knows he has a wife. She feels guilty cheating. She thinks she’s going to pick his brain? Seriously? What first told her something was up? When he said “strip and twirl for me honey?” She told us every mile marker where she had a chance to bail out and she kept going down the road. There are plenty of legitimate cases, re: NYPhil.
I’m sorry but this voluntary meeting between the two is the publics why?and speculating about what she did or didn’t do….?…they’re both adults
My heart breaks when I read stories such as Claire’s – my admiration for the courage it takes for someone to willingly come forward and publicly disclose such a traumatic personal experience cannot be overstated. Support, empathy and compassion are what should be offered to her. It is such an overwhelming psychological and emotional burden to carry, and one which can take such a terrible toll on the lives and relationships of those forced to endure such painful experiences.
Inappropriate sexual conduct (all forms of harassment, assault and abuse) is a predatory pattern of behavior. Where you find one who has been victimized, there are almost certainly others who have suffered similar despicable acts from the same perpetrator. And so many of those who are responsible for such reprehensible behavior continue to prey on targeted victims and remain unaccountable due to their positions of privilege, power and influence or protections afforded by organizations who enable and empower such acts through their disinterest and/or inaction.
We must encourage other victims to tell us their stories and demand transparent accountability for those who are credibly accused of such intolerable acts of depravity.
If anyone doubts what a sleazy piece of work Demondrae is, go over to Reddit and take a look. Messaging teen age girls, dropping a towel in front of a student etc. What is it with these arrogant rapist brass players?
Well, the sleazebags of SlippedDisc have finally shown their ugly faces. Such collective and self-satisfied victim blaming. “She said”, “she did this” “she did that”. From people who have never been stuck in a hotel room, or stuck in a bar, or stuck in a lift with a man that won’t take no for an answer. Never been stuck in a car or a lift with a man transforming into an octopus. Never been in a position where suddenly your idol is taking an interest in your music, and going out to talk music over a drink or two seems perfectly reasonable. That’s the thing about these disgusting creeps, every little step they take is perfectly reasonable. No reasonable woman would refuse the next step, or the next, or the next…. To the sleazebags of SlippedDisc: I wouldn’t wish this on your wives or daughters as they already have the great misfortune of you in their lives. Heck only knows how else you might gain some understanding, though. And yes, I know about this. I’ve been in these situations several times, and managed to flee. Not every woman is so lucky. And no, I am not going to satisfy your prurience by relating those incidences.
The sleazebags know they’re sleazebags, they just don’t care. They like to ‘hide’ in the comments section, but what they say is actually far more revealing than they realize.
This place is a pit of incels and old-timey misogynists lamenting that the old days of treating women like objects are gone before they got to “enjoy” it for themselves. It would be laughable if it weren’t so dangerous and revealing.
You’re not impressing anyone with your inane virtue-signaling and ad hominem attacks, Eric. You’re embarrassing yourself.
I think Eric wishes people to know that he has magic insight and knows exactly the nature of everyone who posts on this site. Isn’t it exciting, that he can do this just on the basis of reading a few words?
I wouldn’t want him on a jury, would you?
She was never “stuck” anywhere!! Her decisions were all entirely her own. I think I could clarify my opinion; I think the euphonium player was totally inappropriate and should be fired. I also think the girl is mentally disturbed and she said she was already a victim of abuse. So, evidently hadn’t learned anything from the first time. Does she not have her own self-respect to answer to? Definitely didn’t respect her own boyfriend! And the thing that doesn’t add up for me is after the fact, continuing to send nude photos and videos. So what, this fat ugly euphonium player exuded a magical force over 5G through her phone that compelled her to strip off again and take the time to sext and send photos and videos? It just runs me the wrong way. Yes, believe all women, but how about they OWN UP to their part?? When will we hear from a woman who says, “ok, I wanted it, he took advantage, I made mistakes, now I regret them, and I realize he manipulated me, I messed up, but he messed up worse.” I just don’t buy into the total victim mentality when someone has 4,000 opportunities to maturely get out of a situation. It’s ALWAYS the “oh, I already know he wants to get naked, but I’ll go back to his hotel after closing out the bar and talk about excerpts and technique” .. are we not allowed to roll our eyes at that?? It’s absurd!! What did this poor girls parents do to her???
Oh please. This is an insult to women. Women can think for themselves. In this case this woman chose to go to a hotel room with this man. No one forced her. She then had a year long affair with him knowing he was married. Now it’s convenient that she shares this story. Her behaviour is appalling and it’s women like this who hurt real victims of sexual violence.
I once had my own chair suspended, literally, because some repairs had to be done at the bottom. Fortunately I could get-off in time.
Sally
Just the tip of the iceberg…..so much more to be revealed from so many other organizations.
And how the hell did a euphonium player become the chair of the IU brass dept. anyhow?
There’s no doubt that women suffer horrible and disproportionately larger amount of violence from men. And there’s no excusing that. It is also possible at the same time, that some people make poor choices, and that not every sexual abuse accusation is the same. Nobody’s stuck in a bar, you can walk out at any time. No-one forces you to drink alcohol or close out the place. Nobody forces you to send pictures and videos of yourself in sexual acts or naked and thus continue participating while at a distance, and for months. This is not at all the same as rape. Conflating the two is an insult to rape victims.
If your solution for helping women is to treat sexual abuse accusations as guilty until proven innocent, then you have to fight for changing the law. At least that’s attempting a solution. Or changing police practices, or an awareness campaign. Start a GoFundMe for this young lady. Do something worthwhile. But mob justice is how the Salem Witch trials happened. It only makes things worse in the long run for women.
Inevitably, some percentage of accusations are false. That requires some type of process before making conclusions. Talk to any HR Profesional, between 5-10 percent of complaints are false. It doesn’t make one an incel or whatever to see events in the context of human behavior. And that context is, no group is immune from fighting for its own interests when given the opportunity and gaining power.
Or, if you think no member of a specific identity group ever lies, perhaps that can be enshrined in the legal system as well.
Note to predator men lurking in the classical music world. It’s over. You will never again have power in our patriarchal industry. Ladies, we’re in charge now!
Ah it comes out, it was never about equality it was always about power
Glad that’s settled then.
I say damn all doubters; afterall, I also often continue texting and send my nudes to the people who sexually assaulted me. (I was trauma-bonded) Making a Facebook post about it as very brave and an example to all. Now women everywhere can feel safer knowing that this PREDATOR is behind bars.
Wow, people hating on men, people hating on women, people hating on Norman, and people even hating on the EUPHONIUM on here! Get a life, folks!!!
He needs to take responsibility for his actions. And so does she.
Both behaviours read like a catalogue of innapropriate, confused and poor judgements.
Is this why she has changed her gender pronouns? It’s obviously THEY according to their FB profile.
Obviously the teacher was a pervert like many of my former colleagues, but what I read on her post tells me they were both intoxicated and were willing to have fun and cheat on their partners.
Sounds like someone wants to take revenge and cash some cheques soon.
Precisely this.
I’m sure this was a very uncomfortable and awkward situation for this woman. Especially since she idolized the man. However, I would like to hear his side of the story. I believe the age of consent in Canada is 16. She was 18 at the time. I don’t see the encounter as being illegal nor did he have any authority over her. At a certain point people must assume responsibility for their actions. After the flirtations, hand on the leg and private message, she probably should have refused his invitation to the hotel room. That’s a good rule for anyone wanting to avoid a situation like this. She had ample opportunity to get away from him. His willingness to cheat on his wife is evidence of low moral character. Unfortunately, these things are all too common today, as they have always been.
Claire Pollock is an adult who made a choice to have an adult relationship with a married man. She is not a victim. I don’t understand how this has anything at all to do with his job at Indiana University. It seems a heartbroken woman looking for vengeance. This kind of behaviour hurts real victims of sexual assault. They should both be ashamed but there were no apparent laws broken.