Riccardo Muti: Today, the musicians are often better prepared than the conductors
OrchestrasFrom a pre-tour interview with El Pais:
Q. Your name is not usually associated with contemporary music, but one of your early initiatives here was to create the CSO Mead Composers-in-Residence program, which has brought in composers like Anna Clyne, Elizabeth Ogonek, Missy Mazzoli and Jessie Montgomery.
A. That’s true, but I want to stress that I didn’t choose these women based on race or gender. I simply found their compositions more interesting than the men’s. I don’t care about what’s politically correct, but about quality. For me, we are all equal – black, white, yellow, tall or short. Of course, I think it’s wrong to discriminate against African Americans or Latinos. But I believe it’s a mistake to prioritize that over quality. In my latest album, I’ve included a composition by Jessye Montgomery and a wonderful piece by Max Raimi, a violist in the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. I did this to highlight a poignant truth: in today’s musical landscape, the musicians are often better prepared than the conductors.
Q. You also recently conducted Florence Price’s Andante Moderato during her Concert for Chicago. Price was the first female, African-American classical composer.
A. Yes, and on the European tour, I will conduct her Third Symphony. But I didn’t choose it because Florence Price was a woman or because of her skin color. It’s a very beautiful symphony. I also find it culturally interesting to show Europe that there were worthy African-American composers in the early 20th century.
Q. People often say that you belong to a bygone era. What has changed in classical music?
A. In the world of opera, the main change has been the stage directors. I’ve seen some terrible productions lately. While there are exceptions, opera has unfortunately provided an outlet for people to display their incompetence, lack of preparation and even madness. This is also related to the lack of authority among conductors who don’t know enough about vocal technique. All the great voices of the past were coached by conductors. [Maria] Callas didn’t come out of thin air – she was shaped by Tullio Serafin. Nowadays, musical rehearsals have taken a backseat to stage direction. A similar shift can be observed in the symphonic realm. Now we have all these directors in their twenties who dare to conduct Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony or his Missa solemnis, and even Verdi’s Falstaff without understanding a word of Italian – it’s impossible.
Read on here.
This conductor has a problem in that he can’t keep his mouth shut.
Can you imagine a Carlos Kleiber uttering so much nonsense all in one interview?
We need more people like him nowdays, who speak aloud with common sense
No, because he didn’t give interviews but if you read Charles Barber’s “Conversations with Carlos” (find it on Ebay) you will see he had plenty of opinions that make Muti look exceedingly diplomatic…………..
Except that Kleiber didn’t publish them in a book. BTW, the 19th anniversary of his death is one week away. Unbelievable.
It is “Corresponding With Carlos.” You can read it online. One thing it says that surprised me is that neither Carlos nor Erich had absolute pitch. Does Muti have it?
Perfect pitch is mostly a curse.
I think it might be useful in conducting Wozzeck and especially 12 tone music.
Relative pitch , much more beneficial to musical expression and intonation anyway
From a letter dated Nov 4,1993 (in cited book pg 225) from Carlos Kleiber to Charles Barber: “Always have envied people with perfect pitch and I squirm when they pretend it is a handicap — the way pretty girls pretend they’d prefer to be plain”.
Rank the items from most hated by Muti to least hated by Muti – the top 3 will surprise you!
– wokeness
– Mahler
– me2
– Sam Zelle
– The “Zelle Music Director” title
– Jeff Alexander
– affirmative action
– independent journalists
– Yannick
– the British
– the Americans
– the guy who spilled the beans on his Putin award
– Chailly
– the CSO admin staff
– the CSO donors
– the CSO board
– Price
– those who defame Domingo
– Schoenberg
– did I mention me2?
Try it out …
I feel like you already put these in that order for us…
Paracelsus: You forgot the Joker on this page, “Chicagorat”, unless of course he’s already been mentioned by another name! 😉
I read the entire interview and it’s a sad list of grievances. One would expect a conductor of a certain notoriety to be more gracious and positive, and not end his career on such bitter notes.
Maybe the world is a much bitter place, not only because one gets old…
Ah yeah, he isn’t conducting Florence Price because she is a Black woman. Fair enough. So what was his reason for not conducting her music during the previous sixty years of his career?
Also funny that to the question ‘aren’t you from a bygone era’, his answer is ‘grumble grumble kids these days, and things were better when I was young.’
You could put the same question to all musical directors of the past 70 years. Who had heard of Florence Price even a decade ago?
Indeed – but at least conductors like Nézet-Séguin acknowledge that composers such as Price, Clara Schumann, Samuel Coleridge-Taylor were deliberately ignored and suppressed by prevalent sexist and racist attitudes and systems. They are open about seeking to correct and remedy that, by performing and recording *worthy* women, non-white, and underrepresented composers.
Muti just makes it seem as if ‘oh yeah, I just stumbled upon that while brainstorming ideas’ out of nowhere. The point is, he very obviously would never have performed Florence Price in 1980, 1990, or even 2010, and he doesn’t want to admit it.
He hates Price, by the way.
Could you back-up that statement please.
I don’t dislike her myself, but I also haven’t heard anything that kept my interest. I will listen to her violin concerto soon.
If you can, listen to some of the solo piano works which are wonderful and particularly well crafted. Many of them have been orchestrated by William Grant Still. But her writing in this genre is clear, concise, and full of melody.
Who’s “he”?
The woke way of seeing everything in terms of victims and oppressors is not the only grid to read the world. If you feel guilty about anything some others did, I don’t.
It seems that as soon as you say that you couldn’t care less about the background, race or gender of a composer you are automatically classified as being intolerant, sexist or racist, while if you are part of the woke community of millennials you have all the right in the world to pass a scathing judgment on old grey eminences and their achievements.
That demographic woke community of millennials are all moaning about not being able to afford to get into the housing market! I say to them, “we have the assets; you have the woke”. That’s fair!!
It seems that if you proclaim loudly that you ignore the world around you, you come off as clueless and self-centred. That’s Muti’s problem.
What gets performed, commissioned, programmed is a social product of social dynamics. That was the case for Beethoven (who wrote music for bourgeois masses instead of aristocratic courts), for Mendelssohn reviving Bach and Händel, for Wagner and his rich patrons. That was the case for Fanny Mendelssohn and Clara Schumann. And it’s the case for the eclipse and revival of Price and other composers who were marginalized and suppressed.
To claim that you can’t read Falstaff without speaking Italian, while being proud to say you have no social-political awareness at all, is dumb. Profoundly dumb.
Emil: “Beethoven (who wrote music for bourgeois masses instead of aristocratic courts)” Main patrons: the Archduke Rudolf, Prince Lobkowitz, Prince Kinsky …
About Falstaff, Muti is saying you shouldn’t be conducting a Verdi opera in Italian if you don’t understand Italian. Sounds sensible to me.
Mendelssohn played a part in reviving J.S. Bach (Handel needed no reviving). He did not do so for social or political reasons.
Fanny Mendelssohn was discouraged from publishing her music by her own family, her brother included. Her husband Henselt supported her musical efforts.
Clara Schumann was more celebrated, as a performer, than her husband. Nevertheless, her compositions were published and performed in her lifetime (which was a long one).
Just possibly the works of Fanny and Clara are only average, which is why they were more or less forgotten?
The racial/misogynist explanations are sometimes overplayed.
Emil: again on Coleridge-Taylor, and just for interest, works of his were played at the Henry Wood promenade concerts in 1898, 1900, 1902, 1912 (his violin concerto), 1914. In 1912 for example a selected list of other composers is Ashton, Bach, Bainton, Bossi, Bridge, Dale, Dubois, Elgar, Enesco, Fiocco (arr. O’Neill), Foulds, Glazounoff, Hale, Harrison, Korbay, Korngold, Poldowski (female), Quilter, Schoenberg, Sinigaglia, Wolf-Ferrari. (Source, Appendix ‘A list of the more important novelties produced by Sir Henry Wood 1895-1937’ in Henry J. Wood, My Life of Music, 1938)
Not only the right, but even it seems duty to judge. Well somehow they enjoyed 60s 70s 80s, good for them. I enjoyed aids, massive unemployment, ecologic crises, terrorist attacks, world epidemic etc …I am not sure I can consider them responsible but somehow..
Emil: “… conductors like Nézet-Séguin … are open about seeking to correct and remedy that (suppression for racist/sexist reasons).”
Muti is saying, I think, that Florence Price’s symphony is worth playing for musical reasons alone. Is that bad? Must he also assert that she is the victim of racism and/or misogyny? Is every conductor obliged to declare a social agenda as well as a musical one? In the case of Price, wouldn’t that imply that her works are performed quite frequently now mainly to counter the injustice, not because they are worth it? Equally good symphonies of her (white male) American contemporaries are rarely heard.
I think Muti is paying Price a compliment by not dwelling on the non-musical issues.
Emil: Samuel Coleridge-Taylor was certainly not ignored and suppressed in his day; he was supported and encouraged by the London musical establishment, and made three successful tours in the USA. Nor was he forgotten: his Hiawatha was performed in his native England quite regularly throughout the twentieth century.
This is bullshit precisely because, Florence Price received a premiere by none other than the Chicago Symphony during her lifetime. The program it was included on was “The Negro in Music”. Seems like the Meritocracy has spoken and gave her a hell of an Affirtmative Action advantage based on her race a long time ago. We don’t need that shit anymore, because it doesn’t help.
True. And the reason most people hadn’t heard of her a decade ago is because her stuff is awful. Now she has more performances that Copland. BUT…..as the maestro assures us…. I did NOT choose it because she was a woman or because of her skin color!!!!
Are you buying that? I think he doth protest too much……
Do you think her music is awful and doesn’t deserve to be performed in much the same way someone doesn’t like, say, Boulez? Or are you predisposed against it for the very reasons you assume others are motivated to perform it? I’m as cynic as the next guy but *aside* from changing cultural conventions, one reason performers play repertoire they didn’t play before is availability/dissemination (just think of all the revival of long-forgotten early music repertoire).
Kyle, I believe your comment is exactly ‘right on’ the mark. The revelation of hitherto unknown or underappreciated composers and the performance of their works is absolutely a fair and valid reason to perform her or him. No one ought to dismiss or diminish how important that is. Let’s hope there are more ‘discoveries’, rediscoveries, or unearthing of previously unknown works and composers to add to the symphonic repertoire.
Yes, the woke revolution is certainly scouring archives far and near to find black and female composers and performers.
Hope this yields some amazing discoveries, but several years in…I remain unconvinced.
Who performs Boulez these days?
While he was an important 20th figure in classical music, his music will not live on other than a curiosity of total Serialism in the name of the People.
Meanwhile Wagner, the total opposite, remains in theaters and concert halls, and even has a Revolutionary group named after him.
I haven’t heard anything composed by Boulez from the CSO since Barenboim left. Muti at least played Philip Glass. And people seemed to enjoy that.
And don’t forget Elliott Carter. We got a lot of that crammed down our throats during Danny’s era and it has never appeared on a program since his reign. Perhaps they can play those works up at Ravinia to keep the mosquitos away.
History has a way of sweeping irrelevant works to the side even if we, the public, are told we must enjoy them or just suffer until the second half of the concert.
Most of it was unpublished and/or location unknown.
Exactly. The orchestrated score and parts to Price’s Piano Concerto in One Movement turned up in 2019! It’s a terrific piece, with lots of errors because it was rushed to print.
Don’t forget that Price lived and worked in Chicago and the Chicago Symphony did the world premiere of her First Symphony. So the Music Director of the Chicago Symphony today would certainly have a special obligation to this composer.
I think it was RM’s way of saying “why, yes!”
Grumpy old men being grumpy. Only other grumpy old men care.
The Bill Clinton of classical music does have a penchant for the past Golden age:
“… I remember the first time I went to the Bellini (Theatre). It was 1966, and Catania was filled with the scent of orange blossoms; today you smell only kebab.” (Riccardo Muti)
https://slippedisc.com/2015/12/xmas-message-riccardo-muti-appeals-for-a-spiritual-revival-in-italy/”
Providing the women are willing what does it matter?
Would you by any chance be jealous of our great maestro?
Interesting stance. i wonder if Muti’s wife and May Lou Gorno would support it.
Oh yes, yes!! This is how a true, genuine Muti fan speaks and writes!!!
Vive La Selva Oscura!!!!!
He does have a point.
Ah, but it is you who is interpreting his words in a negative light, he didn’t say kebab was bad or that orange blossoms were good, or which he prefers.
He has a wood burning brick pizza oven at home in Italy, so he could say, approvingly, “today you smell only pizza”.
But he didn’t say that.
Sounds more like the Cadet Bone Spurs of classical music.
I did not know Beethoven 9 was in Italian. But with Muti, we always learn something new!
Beethoven originally set his Ode to Joy melody to the text of Funiculi Funicula.
I would have thought the Oxford comma would have made his comment clear. I guess not.
He’s absolutely right. Far too many conductors are conducting music that they haven’t had time to “season” with…and they can’t speak the language of the piece. How can they get into the heart of the scene if they don’t know exactly what the scene is saying?
“In the world of opera, the main change has been the stage directors. I’ve seen some terrible productions lately. While there are exceptions, opera has unfortunately provided an outlet for people to display their incompetence, lack of preparation and even madness.”
I have to agree here.
In the world of opera, the main change has been the stage directors. I’ve seen some terrible productions lately. While there are exceptions, opera has unfortunately provided an outlet for people to display their incompetence, lack of preparation, and even madness. This is also related to the lack of authority among conductors who don’t know enough about vocal technique. All the great voices of the past were coached by conductors. [Maria] Callas didn’t come out of thin air – she was shaped by Tullio Serafin. Nowadays, musical rehearsals have taken a backseat to stage direction. A similar shift can be observed in the symphonic realm. Now we have all these directors in their twenties who dare to conduct Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony or his Missa solemnis, and even Verdi’s Falstaff without understanding a word of Italian – it’s impossible.”
And I have to agree with all this.
I still miss you at the Met Maestro. Fabulous Tosca, absolutely excellent Wagner etc etc. Lucky Dallas.
Mini Muti?
No, thank you very much.
But when he is right, he is right.
Totally different other than where they were born. You just have to use your ears and listen.
Everything he says here is absolutely true and well-documented.
Right on – good job Muti!
Anyone who has anything negative to say about Maestro Muti’s comments in this interview couldn’t walk a day in his shoes. He is the last vestige of any connection with an era when the music and the direction on stage, had anything in common. You should look directly into your own eyes in the mirror and
and repeat these words to yourself 100 times before you even think of having your coffee and danish, “I am an asshole! I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about and I have no right to criticize a genius like Maesto Riccardo Muti!”
Now Muti can be many things, but a genius … sorry to break the news to you but, no.
Please stand in front of a mirror and repeat 500 times every day before breakfast: “I am a loser”.
Every day before breakfast, don’t forget.
Clearly you have never worked with him.
I have, and he is both a great conductor and a ridiculous narcissistic clown. The human soul can be a big place.
Ha ha……this quote encapsulates the entire pyramid of the human condition.
The man thinks cows make more milk when listening to Mozart, and you think he’s a genius?
A very stable genius, perhaps?
They do!
Wow- he said it! Whatever one’s opinions on Muti- he’s right on that one.
Very funny suggestion DTPIYI, but highly unlikely to be implemented ♬
NL left out the best quote by far in this interview:
“ We possess an innate need to harmonize and reconcile the cacophonies and dissonances that surround us. This extends even to animals, such as cows, who produce more milk when exposed to Mozart as opposed to contemporary music.”
Obviously we are only talking about improved milk yields from cows fluent in Italian
Read the full interview, he comes across as less mean-spirited than his critics.
Thanks for posting this, Norman.
Not only is stage direction in opera terrible but so is formatting in blog posts.
Speaking of B9 and vocal technique, I’d like to once hear a performance of recording where the soloists actually sound like an ensemble and not like four handsomely paid idiots in a shouting match.
Conductors: instead of the usual big names (the piece will guarantee ticket sales on its own) try engaging e.g. an ensemble of young promising soloists whose calendars are not so chock full that they can’t rehearse together until they can make sense of the harmonies Beethoven wrote for them, balance the parts so that the alto can be heard for once (maybe get a countertenor if you deem it otherwise impossible), and match the tempi to the abilities of the soloists and choir to keep the whole thing not sounding like the score to a fight scene between Tom and Jerry.
Karajan’s first BPO Beethoven 9th: Janowitz, Rössel-Majdan, Kmentt, Berry. All members of the Vienna State Opera ensemble of that era, and it shows.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v4PBLwuQu-0
! very close!
(not the greatest tenor, but the ensemble balancing and vocal guidance by the conductor is impressive. so is the diction of the choir.)
Oh yes I was present at one such Tom and Jerry fight scene…(no names, discretion needed…) when a (world famous) conductor noticed that one of the soloists was so drunk on stage, he was being physically supported by his colleagues on either side. They were valiantly trying to sing his parts as well as their own.
Sir Georg Solti, not George Solti…
Maybe he should give some of his outrageous pay to the musicians then! What Chicago has payed him is insane. Just a thought.
“That’s true, but I want to stress that I didn’t choose these women based on race or gender. I simply found their compositions more interesting than the men’s.”
All well and good, but if he had found the men’s compositions more interesting than the women’s, would he have said so? Of course not.