On basic pay of $153k, NY Phil players ‘can’t make ends meet’
OrchestrasThe musicians have begun picketing concertgoers at David Geffen Hall over their stalled wage negotiations.
Earning $50k less than colleagues in Boston, Chicago and Los Angeles, they tell the New York Times today, ‘threatens our ability to attract and retain the world’s finest musicians.’
‘Our members are having trouble just making ends meet,’ said Sara Cutler (pictured), president and executive director of Local 802.
On basic US$153,000 a year for a 20-hour week?
I wonder what the NY Times journalist is making for a 50-hour week.
Orchestral musicians are most often simply spoiled, entitled and ungrateful!
Entitled? Can’t speak for the US but so far as the UK is concerned, they’re not in the same league as, say, civil servants.
There are other examples.
Korea and China have plenty of classical musicians willing to immigrate for even less money.
“‘threatens our ability to attract and retain the world’s finest musicians.’”
perhaps the most asinine argument they can make—it’s embarrassing to see this, whether it’s the NY Philharmonic or the San Francisco Symphony. There are 24 year olds, fresh off the competition circuit and tours with Verbier Orchestra who are vying for positions in every kind of orchestra, from Alabama Symphony to Richmond Symphony. And most of these kids can play much better today than probably half the tenured New York players did even ten years ago. They are all competitor for the same jobs. It is possible for one to lose an audition for Dallas and win New York. My niece tells me the inside scoop for auditions; same faces, different places.
Cleveland Orchestra remains the highest paid orchestra.
Well, whom ever won Dallas is welcome to audition for the top 7 in the future.
Touring with Verbier? That group is an extremely mixed bag. Those Marlboro kids are consistently far more elite.
Twenty years ago Verbier did ‘live’ auditions in about six world cities. The resultant orchestra was made up of many nationalities. If not already working in the USA, I suspect many would find visas difficult to obtain. Others for their own reasons would wish to work elsewhere. I know of one cellist who ended up in the Vienna Phil.
No idea if ‘live’ auditions are still undertaken.
At a minimum annual scale of $153,608 for the 23/24 season, the Cleveland Orchestra is not the highest-paid U.S. orchestra.
The article references the salary relative to the costs of living in New York City. Take a look at property prices in Cleveland and then you can recalculate. Same goes for LA and San Francisco. One can save or invest with a lot more money in Cleveland than in New York.
I’m from a musicians’ family, love music and fine arts, but I am an architect. Cleveland is a very inexpensive place to live. Just before 2020 period I was located in Cleveland working on a temporary project. Instead of renting short term, I purchased a home and now rent it out.
Inexpensive for a very good reason! And the rest of Ohio is even worse (as you’d expect of the home of J.D. Vance and Jim Jordan).
Based on the cost of living in metropolitan Cleveland, it definitely is. And it’s a fantastic place to live. Which is why TCO has low turnover.
The key word is retain. Orchestras want to retain members for continuity. The NYPO should not be a stepping-stone job
You are quite mistaken on all counts. Cleveland is far from the highest paid orchestra; probably LA is when you count their “housing allowance” in addition to wages. Cleveland is high only relative to the low cost of living in Cleveland, but this says nothing about the cost of purchasing and maintaining very expensive musical instruments, which cost the same everywhere. I have colleagues with instrument loans bigger than their mortgages. As far as the the ubiquitous “24 year olds” who outplay everyone, why is it that the NY Phil principal horn position, to take but one example, has been vacant for seven years? It’s not the 100 players who show up at the audition, it’s the one player who doesn’t. Competitive wages matter in this field as they do in any other, and truly great musician-artists are as hard to find as they have ever been. The NY Phil needs a massive raise to attract and retain these elite musicians. I wish them well in their endeavors.
And they won’t be “soy” either, I’m guessing.
Having said that, orchestral musicians should be paid commensurate with their efforts, abilities and stature. I’m pretty sure they are in Germany!!
Wow, thanks for enlightening us!!!!
Just so you know, more than half the world wants to come here or Western Europe to work for less wages…..
Word is they ain’t striking so who cares? Also, can’t wait for the Afro-Futurism program…
Such a disappointing remark. I am sure that every one of these musicians works way more than 20 hours a week and does outreach and teaches students privately and also has scholarship students which they teach for free. I was one of those students, and I’m also a lifelong professional musician with colleagues around the country and around the world. I’ve lived and performed around the world and also worked with students as a coach and teacher .. this is heartbreaking to read your comment. Remember the contents of these remarks go out to the world and I see you claim to be a musician. If you want the Arts to continue as orchestras fold and choirs are closing in Britain, as they’re cutting youth orchestras and in the Netherlands and as all of the Arts are struggling in the EU…. we are the only country that has a musician’s Union. To quote Kamala Harris on Labor Day “if you like having a 5-day work week thank a union member, if you like having paid leave thank a union member, if you like vacation time or sick leave thank you Union member”. These musicians are highly trained professionals who won their position in the most difficult way, auditioning against hundreds, and also members of a union.
We are not entitled or spoiled when we ask for cost of living increases.
Do you mean seriously the USA is the only country with musicians union?
It’s really sad that instead of engaging in thoughtful discussion, you resorted to name-calling.
Pay them whatever they want, just don’t raise the price of my tickets.
I’m paying for a concert, not their lifestyle.
Unfortunately, their prices of tickets went so much up,a lot of people can’t afford it any more. Even their customer service told me that.
Jealous?
What do you do for a living??
You try practicing alone for thousands of hours and not develop some idiosyncrasies.
NY cost of living is crazy expensive though, a 2 bedroom flat rent costs over $5K. What exactly is the problem with wanting a good standard of living for an extremely highly skilled and high pressure job?
$150,000 per year can support a single parent with two children living in Manhattan county (including paying for child care). https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/36061
This is a study that doesn’t actually take into account real costs of NYC life. Try finding a two bedroom for under $4000, let alone $3200 (which would be the more appropriate amount to spend so as not to commit a crushing amount of your post tax income on rent alone), in Manhattan. It’s far easier said than done. Sure, you can raise two kids with a heavy rent burden, but that doesn’t leave a lot for retirement savings, let alone discretionary expenses or emergency/college savings. To be clear, NY Phil musicians typically earn quite a bit more than $153K because they have additional work, both at the NY Phil (overtime, extra concert weeks, etc.) and freelancing/teaching, but it’s not like musicians are living a high life on their salaries alone.
As costs in major cities continue to skyrocket, local and larger governments should consider how to make their cities more affordable if they don’t want to drive out the very reasons people come to cities in the first place.
Hardly. What world do you live in?
You can do a lot better than that on price. You do have to be at least a little familiar with NY and perhaps not live in Manhattan but it is still doable. The median wage is ~$75k in NYC, average ~$120k so there are plenty of people living on less and working a lot more hours.
Surely nobody here thinks the 20-hour week is all an orchestra musician works?
THANK YOU
Obviously not. But few work a 40-hour week anymore either. That’s called “vacation” where I work.
Exactly!! Lebrecht knows better. Or should!
Those are low-income salaries which are mostly those of people living a GREAT DISTANCE from Manhattan.
Actually most ONE bedrooms cost that now.
In a new high-rise building. You obviously don’t live here.
If a person wants to live beyond their means, they will continue to never earn enough.
And yet they keep voting Democrat to keep them running up the downhill escalator trying to match the cost of living. If it ain’t working for you stop doing it!!
Stockholm Syndrome, anybody?
You obviously don’t live in the US.
What an idiotic remark. Voting republican will guarantee fund cuts, and the eventual closure of most arts organizations.
Meanwhile in the UK, a top British orchestra pays £33k for a rank-and-file string player. And some pay less. Surely that is the bigger news story, that American orchestras pay through the nose for basically the same quality of musician?
If they are indeed the same quality of musician, they are welcome to come play an international audition to try to join a US orchestra.
I’d rather work for a fraction of the pay but live in a country where I’m not likely to get shot…
Well, they can’t shoot all of us!
Most non-Finance professionals in the UK are notoriously underpaid compared to both the U.S. and most of the continent which is way so ,many emigrate.
Don’t forget, Americans don’t have government subsidized healthcare or higher education or paid leave or childcare. If Americans got all those things, I suspect their salaries would have to be lower.
Ten years ago I had a full-time job on Long Island (Gold Coast). The job description called for a PhD, and I needed a car for the commute. My starting salary was about $50,000. I lived in a furnished room. To me, $153,000 would be a lot of money, even in New York City.
20-hours p.w. doesn’t factor in the hours of practice etc.
They should work in a uk book shop.
The money much lower.
Kind of you to assume that we don’t practice or prepare for work in any way, or perhaps you think that work shouldn’t be paid? Remember that 1/3 or more of that 153k will disappear in taxes. And do you know what the cost of living is like in New York City? 1 bed 1 bath apartments near Lincoln Center are $4k/mo on the low end.
Perhaps some of us have expensive instruments we needed to get these jobs that we’re still paying off? Or expensive educations? Or would like to have children? Or our employers don’t entirely cover our healthcare? Perhaps our wages our commensurate with others in our industry? Perhaps an orchestra that can raise a certain amount of money and earn a certain amount of money has an obligation to ensure that the musicians that are the core product of the institution have enough financial security to focus their attention on presenting the audience with our best possible work?
Sad to see the same for-profit mindset so pervasive in corporate industry present in the Arts. The role of an Orchestra management isn’t to cost-cut musicians and deliver profits to shareholders. It’s to creatively market great music, maintain and if possible improve the product for audiences, and deliver the message that this art form is worth preserving. What Arts Institution has ever cut its way to success? How many have cut their way to non-existence?
If this website is allegedly a place where appreciators and enthusiasts of Classical Music congregate, perhaps it could take the tack that denigrating what musicians have successfully, collectively negotiated is at a minimum unhelpful, and at worst propagates the arguments that have led to the collapse of so many excellent ensembles.
The problem is that the complaint and your explanation is absolutely tone-deaf. People are struggling to find work or to make ends meet on a much lower salary than these musicians. A musician doesn’t need to live in the Lincoln Center area. There are affordable rents a short subway ride away. Everyone pays taxes, so why should musicians be any different? If you want to pay less tax, elect people who will lower your taxes instead of raising them. Those taxes are the price of your virtue signalling. Complaining about the cost of what is essentially an asset is completely tone-deaf. Opera and classical music has priced itself out of the reach of music lovers and no one will be there to mourn when it all finally dies.
The following statement is patently false:
‘Opera and classical music has priced itself out of the reach of music lovers’
A music lover can get into the Met or the NYPhil for less than they can get into Hamilton or Taylor Swift. (I believe the Met has $25 tickets.)
Unless classical music intends to be the pastime of the poor, tickets should get more expensive, not less. Music lovers should stop expecting to pay pennies on the dollar of what it actually costs to put the concerts on.
Unless you happen to be one of the many musicians who doesn’t have a job with the NY Philharmonic! I would be at concerts and plays all the time if I could afford it, but I have indeed been priced out .
@Guest: If you were deciding the prices for NYPhil concerts, how much would you price the least expensive?
I’m always intrigued by the argument of “Well, it costs less than a Taylor Swift concert.” True, but consider that a Taylor Swift concert is something that someone attends once every handful of years – at most. And the majority of people see “Hamilton” once – and those are usually out-of-town tourists who are generally not regular arts consumers. I don’t think the Philharmonic would be satisfied with houses of people who attend once every five years. You want me to come on a regular basis – at least several times a season – and THAT is unaffordable for the average person.
@NotToneDeaf: good point. However, from a purely business standpoint, a patron who pays $250 once a year is more ‘profitable’ than one who pays $50 five times a year. It’s a matter of tailoring (pun intended) supply to existing demand.
On paper, that argument looks good. But you want an audience that becomes habituated to attending. If you price your audience out of the habit, you will be like the Met and have rows and rows of unsold seats in the cheapest sections.
@Brian: audiences have been taught to expect tickets to be cheap. Economics 101 shows that what pushes prices down is excess supply. Years of discounting the tickets to fill empty seats have destroyed the market. If the Met or the NYPhil have too many empty seats, they can only fix it by cutting the number of performances.
$25?? You clearly haven’t been to the Met recently. The prices change night to night, but for a Tuesday Hoffmann, the cheapest price in Family Circle is $47. And, of course, the section is almost completely unsold. There are no standing room tickets anymore, so forget trying to economize there.
@Brian: of course prices change with demand. $47 to see a grand opera in one of the world’s most prestigious houses is pretty cheap, in my opinion.
It might be helpful if you provided advice on how taxes could realistically be lowered by any significant amount, as well as the connection between taxes and virtue signaling, since I don’t think it will be obvious to many people.
Two-thirds of the Federal budget, as an example, is used to pay for programs for the elderly (Social Security and Medicare), interest on the national debt, national defense and veterans’ benefits. The remaining two-thirds do go to roads and transportation, education, and Medicaid, as well as 10 percent dedicated to income support for the poor and disabled.
I guess it is virtuous to pay the national debt so perhaps that is what you are referring to by virtue signaling? Or is it the programs for the elderly or (less probably) national defense?
It might be helpful if you identified for us the line items in the budget devoted to virtue signally, along with the amounts allocated to them so that we, like you, can understand how eliminating them can result in an appreciable reduction in the tax burden. I must admit that, in the absence of that analysis, I assumed you were regurgitating a brain-dead, self-indulgent free-lunch fantasy peddled by one American party over the last 45 years that it is possible for all of us to continue to receive all the benefits government provides without paying for them.
two thirds + two thirds does not sum to one…
Yes. Unfortunately, it is not possible to edit. Two-thirds go to the elderly, defence, and interest. The remaining one-third supposedly contains the vast payments to virtue signalling activity (along with payments for roads, transportation and support for the poor), that can be eliminated without anyone noticing.
Wrong.
The Federal Income Tax has but one purpose:
Our labor is being taxed to defray the cost of interest payments made by the Federal Government to a coterie of private, international banking interests, for the “privilege” of borrowing “their” worthless money that they print out of thin air.
Brian writes: “People are struggling to find work or to make ends meet on a much lower salary than these musicians.” This is a false comparison. WHICH people? With what kind of training and education?
The most relevant comparison would be athletes, who, like musicians, put in decades of training.
Have you compared the salaries of world-class athletes vs world-class musicians?
Here are some Manhattan 150K jobs listed on Indeed:
https://www.indeed.com/q-150k-l-new-york,-ny-jobs.html?vjk=db147acb257d8e61
Do you think world-class musicians should be valued less in our society than … sales reps?
I suggest you are the one not comparing like with like. Many world class athletes are in effect individual soloists – golf, tennis, motor racing, etc. – yet very few reach near the top of the earning ladder. Others are individual stars within a sports team – football (soccer and US), basketball, basball etc. and yet still earn what to the rest of us are huge amounts of money.
Similarly many world class musicians do not perform in an orchestra. Other extremely fine musicians do. The point is that the ‘stars’ in both individual and team sports can earn vast sums in comarison to what others in the teams earn. Similarly in music. Star soloists and top orchestra musicians will always earn more – often a great deal more – than others.
It’s true that no classical musicians can earn anything like what Tiger Woods or Roger Federer did earn. But it’s a matter of degree. Pavarotti – and maybe Domingo – certainly earned over US$100 million. In comparison, an Itzak Perlman has unquestionably earned a great deal more than the average soloist or an orchestral musician in the middle of the string section of even a very good orchestra.
It is surely all a question of degree. How many major world-renowned athletes and musicians are near the top of the tree income-wise in comparison to the vast majority much less well off? The number must be basically minuscule for both.
@Nick2: perhaps we differ in our definitions of “world class musicians?” I’m guessing you are thinking it’s only a few principal orchestral players who qualify based on ability? (Please correct me if I’m guessing incorrectly.). Or are you defining “world class” exclusively by pay scale?
Most people are unaware that last chair second violin pays the same as 5th chair 1st violin. And 6th, 7th, 8th and all the way up to 16th chair first violin.
The contract usually reads “tutti violin” for both sections. Tutti violinists change seats week to week, so that nobody is stuck playing in the back of the section, where it’s actually more difficult to play.
And lterally hundreds of violinists — most of whom graduated from from top music conservatories around the world — apply for a single opening in the second violin section in NY Phil, Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, LA, and Cleveland orchestras.
Whoever is sitting last chair second violin in those orchestras in any given week is a world class musician who passed 3 or 4 grueling audition rounds. Any one of them could easily stand in front of the orchestra and perform Tchaikovsky, Brahms, or Sibelius violin concerto beautifully — in fact, it’s part of the audition process to play one of those concerti.
And the same is true for any musician in any major orchestra, and also for many free-lancers.
In the film industry, for example, free-lance musicians are PHENOMENAL sight-readers. They usually don’t have the luxury of seeing the music before the recording session. And let me tell you, a lot of those film scores are technically as difficult as any solo concerto.
What you may also not be aware of is the fact that most section violinists in the major orchestras trained as soloists at major conservatories, but either realized that the market can’t support hundreds of recent grad violin soloists, or else realized that the life of soloist is actually pretty brutal (living out of a suitcase for most of the year) and makes having a family quite difficult.
In fact, it’s only in the last couple of decades that conservatories even offered orchestral repertoire classes for string players.
I do agree with you that only a few are at the top of the income tree — but I’m not limiting my definition of “world class” to the top of the income tree.
“affordable rents a short subway ride away.” Not remotely true, more like well over an hour away in the least safe parts of south Brooklyn, Southeast Queens, the Bronx etc. And hardly areas one wants to travel to late at night following a concert.
Brian, thousands and thousands of people attend the philharmonic and the opera every week. Thousands and and thousands attend Broadway shows every week too. It’s NYC. Nothing is dying here.
Look at the seating chart for the Metropolitan Opera on almost any night and tell me that. If it weren’t for major donors bailing them out regularly, they would not be able to meet their payroll.
It’s very easy to say your organisation shouldn’t worry about profits if you think someone else is paying. Why not just move to Oklahoma or Tennessee and preserve the art form in a place that doesn’t cost $5k a month to rent an apartment?
There aren’t any world-class orchestras in those states. And no one wants to live there, anyway.
Then explain why those two states are growing, in Tennessee’s case quite quickly, while NYC is losing population the most rapidly in the country, both in raw numbers and as a % of population. And high earners are leaving faster than low earners so don’t try and pull that one.
FYI: most people listening to a CD of either the Oklahoma Philharmonic or the Nashville Symphony wouldn’t be able to distinguish them from the New York Philharmonic. Those two orchestras also happen to play in halls much superior acoustically to Geffen. I’ve never lived in OK or TN but I do know people who do and they love where they live. Much more family centered, lower crime rates, clean air, lower taxes…and cowboys!
TN has a 50 percent higher violent crime rate per-capita than New York State according to recent statistics, with Nashville of course being a major contributor to that.
Nonsense, the lot of you are a bunch of overpaid, cossetted, spoiled showoffs.
It speaks volumes that you chose to resort to name-calling rather than make a coherent argument.
Why would I bother?
Which excellent orchestras have collapsed based on the arguments you deride as unfair?
anger issues???
The NY Phil is so excellent that I stopped bothering with free student rush tickets as I was bored out of my skull by intermission and would always leave. If you have to lean forward in your chair in search of the music, well…Sum Ting Wong is probably a major culprit.
It was a world-class orchestra under Lenny just as the CSO was world-class, untouchable really, under Reiner. Unfortunately, those days are long gone. I went to school with players that are either in the NY Phil or have left the orchestra. They are average-level players. One gave an absolute horrid concerto performance with a regional orchestra. There are literally junior high school students from Asia that many of these NY Phil players cannot touch. In fact, there have been competitions in Asia where teens instantly destroyed a MET principal and the principal of a well-known orchestra in California…the “pros” were so outclassed that it was beyond ridiculous.
The sense of entitlement of many orchestra players in this country is disgusting. It’s as if they were given a huge box of expensive chocolates and then complain about having a tummy ache after eating too many. And if it weren’t for donors these places would be forced to close up shop because they can’t survive as a legit business that is subject to the natural laws of supply and demand.
With the average rent on a one bedroom apartment approaching $5,000 per month, their position on what is a living wage is not unreasonable. Yes, many of the musicians have outside income from teaching, but I don’t know how much that is. As to the 20 hour week, the musicians’ response is that they spend a good deal of time practicing at home, which is not directly compensated.
There’s no law that says musicians have to live near Lincoln Centre. Take a look at the commutes done by London workers. And many, many New Yorkers. My goodness, some people live in Staten Island. I doubt 1-bedroom apartments are $5000/month there.
Do you know how long it takes to get to Staten Island from Lincoln Center – especially with reduced ferry service after midnight? Please!
You couldn’t pay me enough to live in Staten Island!
Most people are not carrying expensive 6-figured instruments on the subway at night after a concert.
Or the Staten Island ferry
We do take the subway my friend.
Would you PLEASE stop using the stupid phrase, “Living Wage!!”
ALL of those people are ALIVE! Read that again! They are ALIVE!!
They are all ALIVE and “LIVING!” Therefore, by definition, they ARE earning a “Living Wage.”
Just like EVERYONE else who COMPLAINS using the inane phrase, “Living Wage, they are ALL ALIVE!!
Stop complaining! And YOU take responsibility for YOUR situation!
Stop your complaining!!!
RIDICULOUS
Are we assuming that all of these musicians live in a one-income household? Are none married or with a significant partner who works?
I would not have the home nor lifestyle I enjoy in Manhattan if I was single. I would probably have chosen a less expensive city.
The Times reporter might be making close to that amount, depending on their experience and duties at the paper.
I do think the Phil musicians need some better arguments than “ability to retain the world’s finest musicians.” I’m sure there is no shortage of applicants when a job opens up.
Norman, I’m not taking sides one way or the other but the standard rule of thumb here in the U.S. is to not spend more than 30% of income on rent. Therefore, a salary of $153,000/year means a maximum of $3,825 per month for rent. A two bedroom apartment on Manhattan’s West Side, vicinity of Lincoln Center, rents for $4 – 5,000 per month.
The West Side is one of the most expensive areas in NYC. Is there a reason musicians can’t commute like everyone else?
Brutal schedules that is typically why. Getting home after 11pm after a concert then needing to be back before 10am the next morning for a rehearsal, often. Show business schedules are not kind at all.
Craig, one reason symphony musicians might be less inclined to commute “like everyone else” is that their expected number of commutes to and from work is not remotely like everyone else’s. A typical schedule might include a morning rehearsal followed by an evening concert on Friday, a children’s late-morning matinee concert followed by an evening concert on Saturday, and/or a matinee family concert followed by an evening concert on Sunday. That’s ***in addition to*** daytime rehearsals Tuesday through Thursday, which also may include evening rehearsals as well, if the program involves a chorus.
This is our lifestyle in a London orchestra. Most musos live an hour from town/concert hall/Covent Garden, as it’s so incredibly expensive for rent/homes; as for the US salaries, it’s laughable. Approx 50/60k a year to raise a family, rent/mortgage, day to day living with average earnings. Your salaries twice, even three times as much. Whinging or what.
Divine to live within walking distance of Lincoln Centre but life isn’t like this.
Commute.
@Musolondon: so you think that the fact that London musicians are horribly underpaid means that anyone not as badly off as the London musicians shouldn’t dare yo ask for more?
Wouldn’t it be better if you London musicians demanded reasonable pay?
You’re very underpaid in the UK which is certainly no model for labor relations since the Thatcher era. No reason orchestra musicians in other countries should have to suffer similarly.
I get that. I haven’t been in NYC since covid, so I’ll assume the subway is no longer an option. I suppose I was lucky I could do that.
I worked Lincoln center for years. Commuted from Kingsbridge in the Bronx. Had lovely affordable 2 bed 2 bath flat on a nice block 25 minutes on the train. Grow up. Plus with OT and recording sessions that base pay is about $185k. If you are principal you are making $225k.
You know any journalist who has a 50-hour work week?
Do you know any excellent musician who doesn’t practice 3 to 7 hours a day? A day, not a week!
Yes! lol
Yes. Me.
It’s unfortunate and marginally insulting to see Slipped Disc perpetuate the myth that a “20-hour work week” represents the job of a professional orchestral musician. It fails to take into account the weekly preparation necessary to perform at a level below which one’s employment could be in jeopardy. With all due respect, SD should know better.
It’s the same lazy statement people make about teachers.
It’s worse than “marginally insulting”. It’s just plain ignorant.
$150K is a lot just to follow someone else’s beat.
$150K for being an automaton?
I mean if orchestra musicians decided any fundamental aspects of their trade, like tempo or dynamic, you know, show any independence whatsoever, then maybe they deserve $150K.
Orchestra musicians are like forever medical residents or legal interns. They are never allowed to voice their own independent opinions.
Pretty much the most ill-informed comment on SD so far this year.
Orchestra musicians are like forever patrons at the library, constantly being shushed by the head librarian with a finger over his lips, lol.
In what other profession are you constantly being told you’re too loud?
Chet clearly does not understand the artistry of classical music ensemble playing. How sad.
Right Chet…how hard can it be? Clueless.
If you think it’s easier to follow a conductor’s baton, and play convincingly, than play with personal freedom, you’ve obviously never played in a professional orchestra.
Rather like highly paid public sector workers in the UK with gold plated pensions saying they have to use food banks….
Take it, or get a job stacking shelves in the real world….
I don’t understand why people continue to equate the sum of rehearsal and concert time per week with the number of hours an orchestral musician actually works in a week. One doesn’t just show up to rehearsal not having looked at the new repertoire or played one’s instrument since the last service. Ask a double reed player how many hours per week they spend at a reed desk; ask a brass player what happens to their chops when they take a day or two off. Then there are the non-musical duties: committee meetings, audition panels, sub assignments, etc.
By the way, have you seen rental prices in New York? If one wants to live alone in Manhattan (without roommates) you are remarkably lucky to get away with $3000/month for a one-bedroom. If you have a family with children and need more than one bedroom prices soar. Many American musicians carry the burden of student loans to pay off. And they must buy and maintain their own top-level instruments and equipment.
If we love classical music (and most of us here do) I would think it in everyone’s interest to respect the actual time and work it goes into producing it at a high level by individual musicians.
“threatens our ability to … retain the world’s finest musicians.’”
So are “New York’s finest” leaving for Chicago or LA in droves?
You’re staying either way, whether you get $150K or $200K. You’d stay even if it were $125K, frankly.
Hmmm…clearly I’m in the wrong field!
I’m a licensed mental health counselor and I make $71,000 a year. Are they looking for another violinist?
I think you have put your finger on the argument. If there is an opening for a violinist, you couldn’t even begin to compete for it. Not in your wildest, most hallucinatory dreams. Not even if you devoted the next 20 years of your life and hundreds of thousands of dollars to qualifying yourself for the position. Even with that effort the likelihood that you would have the determination and talent to succeed is miniscule. And if you did succeed in securing a position how would you afford a suitable instrument and the stress of playing at a world class level in front of conductors, soloists, audiences, and critics?
Indeed. It’s probably easier to become a neurosurgeon than a principal in a major orchestra. It’s hard work, but if you do the work, you’ll eventually make it. No such guarantees in the orchestra world.
Wow…
You’re clueless…
I won my first professional orchestral gig as a 4th year medical student.
Continued to play professionally for 32 years AND practice medicine.
Blanket statements are not inspiring to talented musicians able to straddle two worlds.
I don’t think its that clueless to say that only in your dreams are you going for a position in the NY Phil. If you think its so cushy tell us how your next audition goes.
Good luck to you. And by the way, mental health counselors can work remotely, thereby reducing their commutes to ummm, zero. Can’t do that even in the unlikely event that at this stage of life you begin to learn the violin and go on to win the NYC audition. Next!
Not to mention that the profession PBFiddle24 works in is basically fraudulent – both morally and intellectually.
Yes they are. Do you master all of Paganini 24 Caprices, Ernst Polyphonic Etudes, and Ysaye Sonatas for Solo Violin? Because that’s the kind of level it takes nowadays to win an audition of the NY Phil’s caliber.
Someone elsewhere said that she was not too happy she didn’t pursue music as a career and works at cybersecurity. I told her that she would be competing with people who play the Ernst Erlkönig at auditions and she figured it out
[redacted] When you compare other equally talented and qualified professionals of all stripes (athletes, doctors etc) classical musicians are paid almost nothing. We do it for the love of music. Those of us who have risen to the pinnacle of the profession, such as the musicians of the NYP, deserve to be compensated appropriately for the sacrifice and dedication it takes to achieve that level. Get a life!
What does it mean appropriately compensated? A general practitioner in most of America makes less than a section string player in the Philharmonic. Who deserves to be paid more? Get real. And no-one HAS to live in Manhattan.
But you just said yourself: “We do it for the love of music”. So who are you to demand you be paid more? Shut up and play, if you love it so much.
“20 hour work week?” Shame on you, Norman, you know better than that. Orchestra musicians are expected to arrive at the first rehearsal of every week with that week’s music already learned in detail. Fingerings and bowings for string players, breathing for wind players, all worked out BEFORE the first rehearsal.
And just like learning lines for a play, one has to also learn everyone else’s part so they know exactly where they fit in.
Rehearsals aren’t for learning the notes, they’re for refining and polishing.
Every week is a new programme, and some weeks involve preparing 2 or even 3 programmes simultaneously.
I suggest you edit your original post and delete that offensively inaccurate and ignorant claim.
You might also consider spending a day with an orchestral musician, especially a string player, as that practice at home. And then spend a couple of hours with an oboe or bassoon player as they make the reeds for their instrument. Fun fact: they spend a couple of hours EVERY DAY making those reeds.
So what. You have to make a reed, or fiddle around with a string and some rosin, or whatever. Oh, you have to learn a piece for a rehearsal, what a hard life of leisure you truly live. You’re “playing” – you’re doing what YOU decided YOU wanted to do, a long time ago, when people around you told you that you were special and got you lessons, and you’re doing it on your own time. Your literal entire career is doing something for fun to provide a fun night out for people who actually have important jobs and actually have to work. I strongly suggest you get all the way, way over yourself.
Besides, if we have to constantly hear how music raises our spirits, uplifts humanity and all the other hogwash all you protesting union members would have us believe, then what’s the problem with the low pay? Seems like you would be happy to do it – if all that were true.
Sounds like you need to calm down and raise your spirits by listening to some classical music.
@ Skeptical, let me repeat the points you just made:
1. You believe that anyone who is doing what THEY decided they wanted to do isn’t really working, they’re “playing,” and therefore don’t deserve to be paid.
2. You believe that musicians don’t have important jobs, but the people who come to their concerts do have important jobs.
3. You believe that musicians don’t actually have to work, but the people who come to their concerts actually have to work.
4. You believe anything that raises our spirits or uplifts humanity does not deserve to be paid, because the people who do that sort of thing should be happy to do it for very low pay — but you don’t believe music does that anyway.
So, @Skeptical, can you answer the following questions?
a. What do you think are important jobs that deserve pay?
b. What do you do for a living, and how much are you paid for it?
c. Do you really believe that amateur musicians who have “day jobs” doing something else perform at the same high level as musicians who have devoted their lives to practicing and refining their craft?
d.Do you really believe that classical music audiences would be satisfied to listen only to amateurs?
That sweet smell of profound mental illness…
As all this is going on, the price of NYPO tickets has skyrocketed. I am planning to go on a whim to the concert this Saturday evening. There are a few tickets left, the cheapest being $131 and the rest $200, with a (get this) $20 online booking fee. Carnegie Hall is much less and frankly so is the Met.
True this. I was looking for tickets in December and was shocked at the prices; far more than NSO or Baltimore. If they can sell out at those prices, good for them, though. A $20 online booking fee makes Ticketmaster look reasonable.
Right. $20 is chutzpah. I will show up personally at the box office to avoid it (I’m going anyway). I will get in. I always get in. Have never not got in even when I had to bribe an usher to get 2 of us into Carnegie for Bernstein’s Mahler 5 with the VPO in 1986. Best $20 I ever spent even though I had to stand.
You don’t get paid what you need or “deserve”, you get paid what the market will bear. One of the basic problems with capitalism. It’s the worst system in the world- except for all the others.
Not-for-profit arts institutions are basically exempt from supply and demand. Orchestras aren’t paying their players off of ticket sales, or even government support. They’re paying them from the generosity of a surprisingly small number of mostly over-70 mega-donors.
Nonetheless NY needs to pony up if it wants to keep the world’s best. The Wall Street firms know this, and the orchestras should too.
And how much will they be paying Dudamel for beating time?
More. But a music director, as you well know, doesn’t have tenure, has a lot of responsibilities guiding the institution, and their time/effort just in fundraising activities – hobnobbing with the rich dowagers, Wall St. execs, etc. – probably more than pays for their salary.
To win a position in the NY Phil essentially implies one is one of the very best musicians in the entire world. These positions are extremely hard to get, as there can be literally hundreds of applicants competing for one single position, most of whom will obviously be dismissed during the audition process, despite the fact that many of them are more than qualified to do the job. It’s not about the 20 hours a week, but about the intrinsic value of the kind of caliber a musician needs to have in order to make it into the NY Phil. These 20 hours are the tip of the iceberg: they are preceded by tens of thousands of hours of prior practice, and most importantly by raw talent and natural ability, which no amount of practicing can actually make up for. You either have it or you don’t, and if you don’t, you can practice 20 hours a day and you still won’t make it.
Additionally, NYC is one of the most expensive places to live in the entire world. You have on top of federal taxes, state taxes, New York City’s own income tax. Add to that an extremely high cost of living — a city in which a studio costs often more than 4K a month, a bagel with cream cheese between $10 and $15, and where the ability to purchase property is extremely competitive, often requiring 2 years of monthly costs saved in a bank account just to qualify for a co-op, plus a large downpayment. While a 153K may seem to be a high salary when seen from the outside, it is actually nothing extravagant in a city as expensive as NYC, and even less so when one sees it in the context of elite musicians who belong to the very top of their field. A 50K salary differential with orchestras such as Boston or Chicago, where the cost of living is much lower, is simply unacceptable.
First, $153K is most likely the base rate for a new section player; principals probably make around double that, the concertmaster around $500k, and anyone who isn’t a rookie is probably getting a seniority differential. I would imagine the median salary is probably closer to $200k (just a guess).
Nonetheless, $153k in New York isn’t a lot, as others have noted. For people playing in one of the top orchestras in the world.
For perspective, there are still entry-level admin people there who, in my own personal experience, are making less than $45K for 6 day a week work that includes concert duty. Retaining and developing young talent, it seems, is a challenge at all levels.
I’m confused. Are you comparing entry-level admin people who may or may not have a 4-year college degree with world-class musicians, who have decades of training, at least one college degree, and usually years of experience in smaller orchestras?
I am confused by your comment. As historically, entry-level positions have required a 4-year degree. And are you saying that these entry level sales and customer services reps that ensure that there is an audience through providing tickets and assistance don’t deserve a livable wage, because they aren’t classically trained? And what about the tons of mid-level staff many with advanced degrees who work daily to make sure there is an audience, promoting the Phil, fielding all inquiries, and working overtime to keep people engaged and coming to see the orchestra? Many of the staff don’t even make $100,000.
Yes the orchestra is the draw as people would like to see these world-class musicians. But if there was no staff behind the scenes (who also do not make nearly the amount of the orchestra) there would be no concerts as well.
Additionally, those working on the other side, this is their primary/only role. Many orchestra members have the opportunity to perform additional gigs, teach private lessons, and bring in outside income on top of these salaries.
Let us not downplay the other pieces of the whole that make any orchestra successful. The people behind-the-scenes making sure they have a place and an audience to play to. Because what is the point of being a world-class performer, without having the ability to share your talents with the world.
@NYCMusic Lover, no, I am NOT saying that sales and customer service reps don’t deserve a living wage. I am saying that it doesn’t seem reasonable to pay them the same salary as the orchestra musicians, as their jobs require far less education and training than the musicians’ jobs.
Does that seem like a problem to you?
If you’ve ever worked in the arts industry at all, you’ll be aware that the line between performers and arts administrators is thinner than that. Who do orchestras hire to be their concert managers, personnel managers, and librarians? Highly trained orchestral musicians. You can’t realistically get a librarian job with a major orchestra unless you have at least one degree from a major conservatory. I used to work for a per-service orchestra as the librarian and basically the entire admin team there consisted of people with music degrees from Northwestern, IU, CIM, etc. For every musician who gets tenure in a major orchestra, there are thousands who end up as freelancers or administrators or do other forms of low-paying work.
You may think that the lives of administrators don’t matter. You may think that we’re not people in the same regard as the winners of auditions. But you know what? Concerts don’t happen when no one manages all the logistics required for them. You can’t have an orchestra without someone doing the work of raising the money for it, preparing thousands of pages of bowings, or working at the box office. And if the basic functions of society are not carried out—if people have no food, shelter, healthcare, roads, electricity, and basic services—then of course you can’t have concerts either. The median income in New York is $76,577 and the work done by the average New Yorker is far more valuable than events which make for a nice night out for the wealthy. I as a musician recognize that we tend to massively overestimate the moral value of what we do. Yes, it is difficult, but who is it for? When musicians say that music enriches people’s lives and unified humanity and so on, are they not just saying “let them eat cake”?
I don’t necessarily disagree that NYPhil section musician salaries should be raised. However, it’s massively out of touch to say that a salary that’s 150% of the median even in Manhattan is unlivable when 1 in 5 New Yorkers live paycheck to paycheck. If NYPhil musicians or executives or admins for that matter wonder why concert tickets aren’t selling, they should ask how the average worker regards them first and recognize that there are entire classes of people they shun upon sight.
Boo! Hoo hoo!
These musicians don’t know how lucky they are. At least they have steady income and great benefits. As an artist, myself who studied acting and devoted my entire life earning an MFA struggling through life between incredible roles in front of tremendous audiences I have very little sympathy for these few privileged musicians who are lucky enough to make it through the audition process and land an orchestra position with tenure. Tenure can you imagine?
So … you’re comparing yourself, as a talented stage actor (presumably, if you’re struggling between roles, without world-class status), with musicians who HAVE earned world-class status? Each of the NY Phil musicians won their position after an internationally-open audition process involving literally hundreds of applicants. Wouldn’t it be more appropriate to compare only the top-paid actors with these top-paid musicians?
I don’t in any way mean to disparage your own talent and achievements. It just seems like you’re making a false comparison.
You also seem to not understand that tenure is earned over time; one does not “land an orchestra position with tenure.” Before tenure is earned, the musician can be dismissed for any reason, or even without a reason. And even with tenure, orchestra musicians can be fired for cause. Perhaps you didn’t understand that?
NYT journalists are mostly Marxists who in theory don’t require the material wealth needed for a proper bourgeoise lifestyle
I’ve lived in NY for 40 years and I’ve never met a Marxist. Nobody calling for the workers owning the means of production. Nobody asking for nationalization of banks, General Motors etc etc. not one.
As comparison what does a tabloid editor make in the UK?
You damn-well know they’re not only working 20 hrs a week. That’s only on stage time. Stop being dishonest.
Norman, what ugly words coming from someone who should know better. A 20-hour work week? How long would any player last in a top-tier orchestra if they never prepared?
Only $153k per annum?
Poverini.
Egad. NYT journalists would do well to perform 20 hours of real, published, journalistic copy and 30 hours a week of writing practice to even be on the same page of a Philharmonic musician.
Keep voting blue….lol
You get what you vote for. Dems have been in charge 12/16 years. But of course it has nothing to do with politics right?
I wonder if American classical musicians will ever wake up and face reality: the audience for classical music is miniscule compared to other entertainment options. Yes, living in NYC is really expensive. Musicians have to pay for expensive instruments and they have to practice a lot outside of rehearsals. But there’s not an audience willing (or able) to pay what would be needed to give classical musicians the income they think they deserve. I wish classical music was as in demand and popular as Taylor Swift or the NFL, but it’s not. The Philharmonic is a fine orchestra with a legendary history, but given the severe problems New York has, whether the Phil goes on strike (or even out of business) isn’t a priority. There are other orchestras and what with the wonderful offerings in Carnegie Hall with the world’s great orchestras frequently checking in, would it really matter?
Quite right. It would matter, and does matter, not at all.
Not one whit.
The cost of rent is surely the problem. Rent in Manhattan is exorbitant.
Economical lodgings out of Manhattan will be very distant. Living outside of Manhattan will add an hour and more to the commute time (each way) in addition to the hazards involved. Time wasted that can’t be used for practice or private teaching.
Unlike a NY journalist, the players are expected to be at the workplace on time, every time, without fail.
Can you trust the NYC subway system to get you there on time, every time?
I can’t trust it to EVER get me anywhere on time!
The stagehands at Carnegie Hall famously can earn upwards of $400k p.a. for what amounts to little more than menial labour. Nice work if you can get it.
Well, you have to get the number of chairs right and in the right places and open and close the stage doors for the artists to enter and leave. And move the piano around………….
Saying it’s only 20 hours a week is terribly dishonest, as anyone knows that it takes tons of work to prepare music to the level that playing in the NY Phil requires.
And for context, for anyone who hasn’t lived in NY, $153,000 is not enough to live luxuriously. For that salary, you can afford a decent small 1BR in a good neighborhood where you won’t have much of a commute. Or, perhaps a 2BR in a neighborhood further away. The apartments won’t be luxurious by most US standards, but you’d have a decent place for basic NY standards. You’d certainly need roommates or additional income from a spouse or partner for anything more than that, or if you want kids.
I also understand the argument that the NY Phil may have difficulty in recruiting musicians vs. other orchestras in other cities which are able to pay more, relative to those city’s costs of living. Ok. Fair.
But the disconnect on the other side comes from the musicians’ statement that players are having trouble “making ends meet.” Is that really true, or is it hyperbolic? Rubs me the wrong way and seems unbelievably tone deaf. $153,000 is a serious amount of money relative to what most musicians in NY make.
What might they say to the vast majority of musicians in NY who bust their ass gigging, many of whom work extremely hard and take home maybe half of $150,000, if they’re very lucky? Or even less? If you’re making less than $75K in NY, you really *are* having trouble making ends meet, particularly if you are trying to save money to retire. Guaranteed your apartment is not very nice, and your commute sucks, and you are praying not to have some kind of medical emergency.
I said earlier that $153,000 is not enough to live luxuriously in NYC. That is true. But it should be enough to make ends meet, and who pursued a musical career to live luxuriously? Whether or not that is what the musicians are trying to obtain for themselves, their statement about “making ends meet” is, ironically, a thumb in the nose to musicians all over New York who bust their ass, are unbelievably talented (though may not have been lucky enough to land an orchestral job), and are lucky to make half of what the NY base pay is.
Contract negotiations are a lot about swaying public opinion…and I think that not a lot of people are going to be swayed by the “ends meet” argument. I hope the musicians are able to get what they want, but I’d try an argument that will ring less hollow.
I grant you that $153k might not provide you a “luxurious” standard of living, especially if you are single. But
I wonder how many of these musicians are actually part of a two income family/partner situation. It does not seem to me that these musicians are living in poverty, unless you are talking about ” relative poverty”, i.e. comparing yourself to someone who makes a $1 million in salary.
I was wondering when someone was going to bring up the freelance musicians of NYC, who have all of the same challenges and worse. No consistency, crazy schedules, late nights, no benefits, the list goes on, and they need to have four times the hustle and might be lucky to make half the income as a 1099 with no benefits.
I completely agree. Acting like $153,000 a year puts you in poverty even in Manhattan is incredibly privileged and out of touch. It’s not just a thumb in the nose to other musicians, it’s a thumb in the nose to the millions of workers in NYC who survive on less than half that much while doing the labor necessary for everyone to survive. If classical musicians want to understand why we’re irrelevant in broader American culture, this is why
The argument should not be what the musicians deserve.Top musicians deserve top pay.The real issue is what the organization can pay.
Economists talk about the ‘inefficiency of the arts’: performing a Beethoven Symphony takes about the same number of musicians and the same amount of time as it did when it was premiered. Musicians have to practice as much (or more) as they did a hundred years ago.
Technology continuously makes goods and services better and more affordable all the time, but it does not have that effect on classical concerts. Yet, the cost of living is going up, and wages must follow. Therefore, orchestras have to raise more and more $ every year to do the same job they were doing a hundred years ago.
Tickets pay for only a small part of an orchestra’s annual budget. The rest comes from donations, which are just as volatile. The bigger the orchestra, the bigger the problem.
Instead of relying more and more on donations, orchestras have to figure out how to use market forces to their advantage. They (and the musicians) must also accept the fact that, just like in any other sector, in down times you cut down and everyone makes less money.
To turn the arts around in the US, we need fuller houses. Fuller houses come from cutting down the number of performances, and from programming stuff that a lot of people will pay good money to hear (this is purely an economic observation-not a criticism of anyone’s programming, or advocacy for one kind of music or another.) When theaters are full, ticket prices go up, and you spend less on advertising. You also need fewer marketing people. Which brings me to: orchestras also need to cut a lot of desk jobs, get rid of expensive ‘consultants’ and pay their executives less.
If an orchestra can’t pay the musicians more, it can give them the same pay for less work. In addition to fuller houses, fewer concerts will also give the musicians more free time, which they can use to generate more income.
My two cents.
(Pun intended)
To the fellow who claims there are countless people struggling to find work or make ends meet on a much lower salary, while that is true, first of all, you ignore the fact that this is a job that requires a highly specialized set of skills. It’s not a fair comparison to something that can be done by anybody else. It is one of the top jobs in the country, if not the world. It is extremely difficult not just to get in, but to maintain your skills and be prepared for each concert, which brings me to my second point many people have already mentioned.
Second, the 20 hour week Norman Lebrecht is talking about only accounts for the time the musicians spend on stage(rehearsals and concerts). I promise you not a single musician shows up and sight reads music because we simply cannot afford to do that-we’d be directly risking our jobs. We actually spend more time practicing and preparing than the 20 hours Norman just tossed out there.
Thirdly, I don’t know how much a journalist makes nor do I care but at least orchestral musicians know how much preparation is needed and they actually go through that process, even though nobody gets hurt or killed if they don’t. By writing a negative article like this, you however, have made it abundantly clear how clueless you are, which is particularly embarassing considering how often you write about Classical Music. Your ignorance is your own loss which I don’t care about but negotiations are often influenced by the press and publishing such an article is incredibly damaging because it is simply misleading and false. And no, I am not associated with the NY Phil in any way.
Lastly, NY Phil musicians don’t need to live right next to Lincoln Center but even the New York City area in general is very expensive. Many musicians live outside Manhattan already and if they had to move even further away they would have less time to practice and spend time with their family due to the commute. Why should they be forced to do that?
Next time, please put in minimum effort at the very least before writing such a thoughtless article or do us a favor and don’t write one at all. Just to break it down for you purely mathematically, the hourly rate of 153k for a 9 month season based on a ’20 hour week’ would be 153,000 ÷ (9×20×4) = 212.5 And that would be without preparing a single extra minute outside of rehearsals. Ever cared to research what average-not even top notch- lawyers/doctors/bankers make in NYC? My sister-in-law, a doctor in FL, made over 500k a few years ago and she’s not even a specialist. NY Phil musicians are not even asking to be paid that much.
All obfuscation. The essence of the matter is the echo chamber in which these musicians live, an echo which has in most cases been reverberating since little Johnny decided he wanted to play the violin and was told he was special. In reality, the entire industry serves, exists for, and on, itself, and its absence would be little noticed (let alone mourned) if it disappeared overnight.
It’s a laugh, and a head-scratcher, reading these takes.
Spot on. I spent six years at the Juilliard School and witnessed the entitlement of students, faculty, and admins. People living in the real world can only laugh at how delusional many of them are. The problem is that these people HONESTLY feel that they are better than others, thinking it’s because of their playing that they have become “successful” when, in many cases, it wasn’t their playing that got them to where they are but rather external factors, like support from their wealthy families, politics, etc.
DeLay students acted as if non-string players were subhuman as they sat on a Cheetos-filled couch for 12 hours waiting for a lesson with the “Queen,” hoping that she would open doors for them. Well she couldn’t open doors for all the “sugar plums.”
These people continue to stoop to such low levels too. Imagine an artist or their manager lying on a concert program, claiming that a well-known composer composed a piece for them when in reality the piece was written for an international competition (the composer didn’t even know of the artist’s existence). Believe me…I’ve seen it all.
According to data publicly disclosed by the New York Times in contract negotiations, the median salary of a New York Times reporter is $161,000. The paper’s annual report also indicates that employees receive stock-based compensation as a significant component of compensation, something that would not be available to a New York Philharmonic member. Therefore, it’s not clear the journalist would be shocked unless he or she truly considers the musician’s job to require only 20 hours a week.
Sounds as if the New York Times DOES know what it takes to “make ends meet” in NYC and pays its staff accordingly.
The NYT article is blocked to non-subscribers so I don’t know what it said. But it looks as if SD is “shocked” by this claim by someone who only works 20 hours a week.
Not as shocked as SD readers at this stunning remark by someone we all suppose to know something about the work of orchestras.
Yes, the waiters who serve coffee and the cleaners in downtown offices and a whole lot of the other people you will run into doing their work in NYC earn a lot less. And the Wall Street employees and the middle managers and up of many corporations and, yes, the reporters on the NYT, as well as doctors and dentists and lawyers,, make more.
But I doubt the NYT reporters all live within striking, or walking, range of 620 Eighth Avenue. Or expect to. Like other New Yorkers on various pay scales, they live in Far Rockaway and Williamsburg and Riverdale. Or even in New Jersey or Connecticut. The waiters and cleaners may live in the Bronx, and the doctors in Greenwich, Conn. If NYP musicians want to live around Lincoln Centre, they know what it’s going to cost. But if they want to have kids and room to raise them, they are going to have to commute. Like everyone else.
Every time something like this happens it’s the same old on SD. The perpetual orchestral musician bashing and ignorance re: what top level musicians actually do is baffling. I seriously wonder, what is the point of this site?
Long texts in the comments, but it is a simple matter of:
1) have the money to increase their paycheck?
If yes, fair to increase.
If no, make a plan to increase revenue or go to Boston and alike.
Unlike a major city in Europe or Asia, NYC isn’t too clean, charming or attractive. But for over 150 years, it (like the U.S. itself) still manages to do very well, including a NY Phil.
If musicians of the NY Phil have to commute to Lincoln Center by subway, they use a system that by comparison makes the subways of London, Paris or Tokyo seem modern, pleasant and spotless.
Musicians in London deal with scenery like in a Mary Poppins story. Musicians in NYC deal with scenery like in a Mad Max story.
In a way, folks in the Big Apple (including at Lincoln Center) deserve combat pay.
All too true, but all of us in Manhattan make this choice. There are other choices.
The subway system in Tokyo *is* modern, pleasant and spotless!
You forgot about the part about the Japanese who hate the guts of non-Japanese.
20 hour week???????????????????????
Like Teachers, so much Hidden Prep
Practice, Prep, New Program every week.
It’s an All Encompassing Job.
Non Musicians, at least Here, don’t have a Clue.
I’m not sure I want to hear the Orchestra of 24 year olds
who will work for less.
Each member should receive a bonus of no less than $100k as retroactive combat compensation for having to work with the likes of Jaap Van Zweden.
$150,000+ a year puts a person in the top 20% of wage earners in Manhattan. The medium income in Manhattan is about $70,000.
Think of the other 80%, many of whom have professional training and similar financial obligations.
According to Gusto, 80% of salaries in Manhattan fall between 34,451 and 169,650 so your estimate is quite off. In addition, just even referencing the median salary and comparing it to one of the top jobs in the country is hardly a convincing comparison. NY Phil has a huge endowment, Boston and Chicago aren’t more expensive to live in yet they pay approximately 20-25% more. Is competitive pay too much to ask for?
I would trust official government census data over Gusto.
As for the financial stability of the NYPO, they have an endowment of about $237 million (from which they probably draw less than 5% annually) and a budget of a little over $90 million. They still have a cash deficit of about $8 million.
In fairness Boston and Chicago are much better orchestras.
For people who value talented, excellent musicians, and love and support wonderful orchestral performances, $153k is a bare minimum, especially for members of the world renowned New York Philharmonic.
How odd that no one seems to complain when a pro football player is paid $30 million yearly.
Maybe orchestras should join the gambling populace and offer online betting for music lovers. They could bet on how many attacks the horns missed, or how many times an audience
member coughed in a pianissimo section, etc.
As plenty have already noted, the snide tone of the comment about 153k is pretty clueless about the cost of living in NY. On the other hand, very few NY Phil musicians, if any, are actually taking home only the “base pay.” Orchestral compensation is more complex, with media guarantees, overtime, various other things triggered by individual circumstances.
What counts as “a living wage” or “a decent salary” is also dependent on context — there and everywhere. What kind of social live you lead with your friends, how you need to dress to “fit in,” where your kids go to school, how much living space you have, how far it is from your workplace — all those things are different depending on whether you’re a bus driver, a physician, a NY Phil musician, a schoolteacher, or a delivery courier.
Bottom line, entry-level NY Phil players are on a par with entry-level employees in many fields of work that could reasonably be compared, but below their peers in other major orchestras, and it’s easy to see how it could feel like “not enough.” These folks are not in any sense “spoiled” and not expecting to live like millionaires. But they live and work in a place that is full of millionaires, and that does drive up costs for everybody.
Sorry but as a conservatory-trained musician I don’t care if other musicians think we need to have enough discretionary income to “fit in” to the bourgeois lifestyle. If someone’s biggest financial problem is that they can’t send their kids to the “right” school or go out to expensive restaurants with friends, then they have no idea what real problems are. I don’t think I’m better than bus drivers, school teachers, or delivery couriers. You are arguing for the maintenance of class structures in American society when in fact the one of the greatest virtues of American culture throughout history has been its rejection of class as a metric of a person’s value. The culture of classical music is distasteful to most people in our society precisely because we musicians tend to think of ourselves as special and exempt from the labor which most people perform.
Bottom line the cost of living is rising and the institution like NYC Phil can’t keep up with paying the musicians who can’t miss the notes and stressful living is not helping with the stress on the stage.
The question is do you want to have an orchestra in NYC which is representing the city or not?! I do know that not only tickets support the institution but also rich donors. Dont know if NYC supports orchestra ? If not maybe it should support like other organizations. If you want to have an orchestra support it ! It’s same as going to a bar but on a bigger scale. Generations are changing and new people need to be introduced to orchestral music and tradition otherwise orchestras will become dinosaurs of the old world.
You are correct, but the introduction to music, classical or otherwise, begins with the early formative years of education. It’s a problem in the US now going on for at least a generation, if not more.
What has the NY Phil done to make a real impact on the music curriculum (or lack thereof) in NY public schools?
It is too late for this generation, but some forward thinking needs to take place if we want an audience in 20 or 30 years.
A shiny new auditorium and lobby are nice to have, but does it change the broader interest in the orchestra of the city at large or just the relative handful of its audience?
I totally agree that Outreach and sharing music with families and the next generation is a vital importance to the community and to the future of classical music. I think you would find if you spoke to many of these musicians that in addition to their job with a symphony they are doing just that in teaching and tutoring students. When we go to work we’re a held to the schedule that is given to us and the number of Children’s concerts and Outreach programs often get nixed first and have nothing to do with the actual musician who is sitting in that chair who took the job. We have very little control over this, that is management and the board of directors. So once again you’re putting it off on the laborers who are actually doing the Outreach you’re talking about right now privately. I have been a professional musician my whole life and I have never stopped teaching or tutoring or starting music programs on the side. Many of my colleagues have formed and founded great youth Symphonies and coach and do things on the side for the future of music. So if you think the New York Phil needs more Outreach programs I would invite you to please reach out to the board of directors and the management of the orchestra and tell them this. But once again in contract negotiations, whether it be the misquoting of what we work per hour and how many hours we work, and that we don’t want to do these Outreach programs is just untrue. I have been a lifelong Union member and I stand up for musicians the Arts and education and I feel it necessary to point this out. The musicians who are negotiating their contract do not control the New York Phil’s art programs and Outreach programs. Thank you for reading this
Reality Check: Outreach does do s***.
The cost of living is very high in NYC. Pay them more!
Anyone who makes it into the NY Phil is in the top 99th percentile in their profession. How much are the top 99th percentile of doctors, lawyers, engineers and professors making a year? Surely more than 150K.
Massive raise incomong for NY PHIL.
A musician may only show up 20 hours a week but they need to practice the music off-hours. Also, most musicians DO their jobs. Most journalists these days do not, and are propagandists for the Deep State
I think you are confusing Slippedisc with Q-Anon. Go back to your dark web.
A rare photograph of Robert without his tinfoil hat.
Anyone else wonder how big a check the NYPhil’s management cut Norman to shill their party line?
Hello,
I would like to point out that those 20 hours or hours spent in rehearsals with your colleagues and at the concert. They do not include the untold number of hours we have spent practicing and preparing over years or even the weeks before the week of the concert to perform that music at a high level. It’s not like we are magicians pulling a rabbit out of a hat, there’s a lot of behind the scenes work that we never get paid for so you might as well add double or triple the time we work per week to put out that kind of a high quality product in 20 hours with colleagues. I know of no Corporate Offices, or anybody else for that matter in any business that does such a high level quality product on 20 hours a week, and the kind of skill we bring to the job and the kind of work we do behind the scenes before we even meet with our colleagues never gets acknowledged and that is worth something.
You do not help the Arts when you make comments like that. Every single time we have a contract negotiation people want to do the math they take an hourly rate and they times it by 40 and they say we make way more than we make or they do what you just did which is take the salary and say “but they only work 20 hours a week” which is not true.
You get paid per word I believe…well if we got paid per note we’d be earning negative amounts of money and every note matters and we work hard to make every note beautiful well before we get on stage for that 20 hours that you claim is our only work week. Thank you for reading this comment and considering this the next time you in writing or verbally make a remark like that about the musicians in performance Arts, you’re not helping anybody it would be better to say nothing. These are the kind of comments put in the press in the media that ruin contract negotiations, eventually ending in orchestras closing. I would never dream of making a comment about what you should be paid for your writing.
Respectfully and with a bass in my hand and music in my heart.
Beautifully stated!
To be fair no one in the symphony said that the interim president of local 802 did. A president who is spending too much time with this contract and not other expired contracts in dire need of attention at the moment in NYC with members who actually are in danger of being in a position where ends will be harder and harder to meet.
Is it mandatory to live in Manhattan if you’re in the NYPO? I would think not. Yes, concert nights might be late nights, but there are commutes to NJ, the LIRR to get you to Long Island, etc.
You don’t need to subject yourself to Manhattan rent prices if you don’t want to.
This is ridiculous. What 802 and NYP should really be focused on is the bro culture and expense of having sexual predators currently and formerly in the orchestra which have also severely tainted the tenure process.
You couldn’t pay me enough to play there or send a student to audition, esp. a woman. And like it or not, that is their rep now in the biz, on top of an unbelievably toxic work environment and the legacy of hiring two completely incompetent MDs in a row. A salary reduction and housecleaning of admin would be a good start, starting at the top. Plus it’s really hard to argue that they even sound that good nowadays.
Since when are these musicians so entitled that they have to live nearby in Manhattan? So commuting from Sunnyside Queens or Kensington Brooklyn are simply not options for these prima donnas huh…..?
Change professions. I alternate between being a male stripper and classical musician. I try not to take anything that seriously.
The part of this post that bothers me is you allude to a 20 hour work week. Do you not think these musicians prepare and practice many hours a week outside of their rehearsals and concerts to perform at their best? It’s part of the job…
Perhaps if NYC weren’t a sanctuary city, money spend on migrant care could be used to support important institutions like the NYPhil. Prices rose astronomically over the past 3.5 years but will you still vote in the administration that created today’s crisis? Will you still support no cash bail. Crime is rampant in subways and on the streets. No wonder musicians don’t want to commute and risk their lives and instruments.
Why not include the average tutti musician in a major UK orchestra? Lucky if they clear £30,000. Why is Lebrecht intent on shining a bad light on classical musicians?
why does this shed a bad light on musicians, UK or other?
@norman lebrecht: it’s inaccurate and insulting to call it a 20-hour work week. Are you really unaware of how many hours are required for orchestra musicians to be able to show up at the first rehearsal every week already knowing their parts? Did you really not know that, even with tenure, orchestra musicians can be fired for showing up to that first rehearsal unprepared?
Well I’m reluctant to say this however after my last visit to a city I used to love, why anyone would want to live in NYC these days is beyond me.
Well, let’s see:
NYPO, as here
Met Opera
Carnegie Hall (when was the last time the Berlin Phil came to your town?)
Met Museum*
MOMA
The Frick
Morgan Library
Sure, you can say you can visit for those thing, but I can just hop ona subway or bus.
* Free for us NYC residents
More of the same for performers. The execs and admin will be fine though.
I am curious as to how much the administrators of the NYP make? I don’t think they should be making any more than the musicians. Or not even as much. Then there is the question of where is the money going to come from to pay the musicians a higher salary? If the money is available, then it would be appropriate to pay them more money. If the money just isn’t there, then the musicians should settle for what they earn. The management should open their books and show the musicians the financial state of the orchestra.
All of which goes to show, if you want to understand the basic economics of salary scale, never ask a musician.
Most of them will just tell you what they think they deserve.
If they work a 20-hour week, that potentially means they could spend another 20 hours doing other things, like teaching, outreach etc, to augment income. I’d like to see a breakdown of a player’s monthly outgoings to better appreciate why they can’t manage on $153,000. Forgive me if this seems naive, but I live in the UK and I should think any UK-based orchestral player would be cock-a-hoop on such a salary.
Get real. 20 hours a week is onstage time. Have you any idea what orchestral musicians actually DO?
@ STEPHEN BIRKIN: if you read through the comments here, you’ll see that many of us have pointed out that orchestra musicians are required to put in many hours per day to learn their parts for each week’s concerts. The 20 hours refers only to time required on stage. That reference, therefore, is incredibly misleading.
They have to practice at least 20 hours per week. That’s minimum.
Everyone of them have side gigs with salaries, or the ability to substantially increase their salaries, chamber gigs, teaching gigs etc. Beethoven wrote, “Rage Over a Lost Penny”. Here it is in person. The NY Phil Board well knows every one of their musicians double and triple dips. Eventually the union will run off the ticket buyers as the cost of a ticket becomes more outrageous than it already is.
@Save the MET: Every person in every profession has the ability “to substantially increase their income ” through side gigs. So your point is actually irrelevant.
Every MET musician I’ve ever known is worked to death- have no clue how anyone would fit in an extra gig or job. Was a musician for 4 decades- not sure if I could have ever survived a MET schedule.
20 hour work week????? It is obvious that you are oblivious to the requirements of a symphony musician. Show me a musician that works only 20 hours a week and I’ll show you one that is unemployed very quickly!
I am a retired musician who aspired to perform in the most highly respected orchestras. Alas, my talents limited my ascent to lesser groups, which I enjoyed immensely and that let me to piece together a respectable career and income.
What I learned over the years as I met the wunderkinds who passed me and achieved the most revered positions is that they were consistently harder working, more talented, and among the most highly intelligent people on earth, comparable to our most highly respected physicians. They were blessed at birth and used intelligence and thousands of practice hours to be accepted into the NY Philharmonic. They should be paid commensurate with their highly developed artistry.
I am no musician but an engineer. 20-15 years ago, those top orchestra musicians base payments were about the same level as mid level engineers. I was talking bayarea vs SF symphony members. Now, $150K would be way below what the engineers making now. So, $200K range is not outrageous to me. NYC, cost of living is ridiculously high, so is LA, SF, Boston. Cleveland can’t not compete with these metros in terms of cost, it’s not even at Chicago Phyllis level yet. So, it’s not a fair comparison. Even DC national symphony members likely make more than the Cleveland even though artistically it’s one tier lower. Now, the question is not whether those musicians deserve a pay raise to match their peers from Chicag, LA, Boston…., the question is how do they manage to get those extra money annually. Let’s face it, the phones you were using twenty years ago, the television set, the car you driven back then are trash compared to what it is now. It is us the hardworking engineers to make it happen. Making music? Especially playing the same compositions as they did twenty years ago? What is the merit do they deserve other than keeping align with the inflation?
And their supplemental income for teaching? Come on.
Can’t make ends meet on a salary of $153,000 a year (for 20 hours of work a week), about $12,750 a month? What the heck are they spending their money on? I know it’s expensive to live in New York City but dang. I live on less than $17,000 a year!
“$153,000 for a 20 hour work week” ??? You obviously have no idea about the life of a musician. Add on another 20+ hours per week of practicing, then if you are a reed player, another 10-20 hours or so per week making reeds. That’s 50+ hours before the non paid teaching, chamber music rehearsals and concerts, and touring. Musicians in one of the most prestigious jobs in the world don’t show up unprepared, learn their part at the rehearsal, and then hope-to-God they don’t screw up at the concert. They have to be perfect every time they take their instrument out in public.
Just wait folks.
$135k pay is about what an experienced registered nurse in a hospital in NY city gets paid.Good for them, they are some of the best musicians in the world. Also when not ‘working only 20 hours a week’ they are spending many more hours practicing daily.
Fantastic news out of NY:https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/19/arts/music/new-york-philharmonic-labor-deal.html?unlocked_article_code=1.L04.tg5a.NcYY_IwYl6j_&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb&cbgrp=p
Seems to me that there is an element of personal financial incompetence on the part of some of these musicians ….
For all the people posting here who inexplicably believe the obvious “20-hour work week” lie, maybe, just maybe, this video will help you understand why orchestra musicians put in at least as many hours of individual practice as they spend on stage in rehearsals and performances: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpyzGO2aQzE
A 90% success rate might be considered terrific in many other careers, but it’s a failure on stage.