Another absence from Winchester
NewsThe Dean of Winchester was supposed to be at Bury St Edmunds today to preach on the 30th anniversary service for the ordination of women.
She failed to show up, send instead an inadequate video address.
Clearly the crisis that is shaking Winchester is having wide ramifications. The Precentor failed to show up in Winchester to conduct the service….
UPDATE: Or to solemnise the wedding of a Cathedral colleague.
I’d be interested to know when this was recorded. Anyone know?
Guilty silences. I feel sorry for the other clergy trying to keep the show on the road. But how many of them were complicit?I pray that some were blindsided.
She (& he) should be persona non grata in any place where decency, humility and sense are paramount.
Let us all continue to shake this tree until the rotten fruit falls to the ground.
Something tells me it won’t be long now, God willing.
Indeed
Ogle is being heretical when she invokes “the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Saviour”. It displays ignorance of the indivisible nature of the Trinitarian and Triune God.
You don’t expect a modern Anglican Priest to be theologically sound do you? You expect too much.
These guys said it all first, and better;
https://youtu.be/GIUbwY9cbto?si=htyPprxrXMEGxsl1
You see the band on this one.
https://youtu.be/ytY2sqn76q8?feature=shared
Like all female Deans of Cathedrals, she should go and they should all stop causing chaos, out of control finances and distrust under their incompetent watch and in the process destroy the buildings they curate and relationships with towns and communities they serve.
Ouch!!!!! Overt misogyny. What a ridiculous thing to state
It is however worth exploring the general differences between a man and a woman for these leadership positions
Not ridiculous or overt misogyny Viv! I can tell you of a dozen female Deans in Cathedrals in both England and Wales who have a known track record for destroying the buildings and chapters under their incompetent watch.
Want me to expose them and their unChristian antics on here?
No, this is not correct. Female clergy are not inherently worse than male clergy. Sadly, they are not proving to be inherently better either. The one reason I can think of which may cause a distortion is that the church has eagerly promoted female clergy fast, so as to achieve diversity aims more quickly. And this may have lead to either 1) some inexperienced / incapable people being put in senior roles, or 2) the speed of promotion has given some female clergy the impression that they can do no wrong – and they are busy proving that to be false.
But be clear, in terms of the things that matter in a priest – honesty, intelligence, empathy, ability to communicate, ability to lead and inspire – women and men have the same potential.
But, oh dear, in this situation both the men and the women are letting the side down.
Absolute truth. Well said!!!
Very stupid and insulting thing to say!
There was no female Dean at Wakefield and look what happened there!
Or at Liverpool Cathedral some years ago, as I remember only too well.
Sadly a very unhelpful comment Lapsed Organist. The situation is abhorrent. The Precentor at Winchester is an awful, narcissistic bully and I’ve seen this in action firsthand. The Dean is weak and has chosen to go in a direction she cannot come back from. One is a man. One is a women. gender has nothing to do with it. So let’s stick to the task at hand and get these awful people removed from the positions of care and authority that they should never have been given in the first place.
He needs to be at the very least put on leave pending an investigation into his alleged behaviour.
Andy Lumsden – who would blame him if he went off sick for the rest of this term? But no. He is a true professional, doing what he does best, in what must be intolerable conditions. Directing his beloved choir. The Dean and Trenier should watch and learn, then be booted out. He for inexcusable bullying, and the rest. And her for utter incompetence.
Very concerning that this should go on in a house of God, the current Dean and canons are the custodians of centuries of tradition that could be lost in a day and the cathedral become an empty museum. The precentor should seriously consider his position and do the honorable thing. The Dean has showed insufficient leadership and should also consider her position.
If the desire within Chapter is to change the way music interacts with faith at Winchester then that is their prerogative. Whether it be for financial, societal or some other reason then if they feel it is a right step forward, do it. One would hope that those who would have to live with the possible change (the congregation for example) would be part of any process.
However, achieving change by bullying, lying, making life difficult and uncomfortable and forcing people to walk away from a career and maybe their faith then that is not alright. It must and has been called out and I for one see no way in which those that have initiated and supported this approach can stay in place.
Following the reforms of the Second Vatican Council and the subsequent publication of the Novus Ordo, there was a brief vogue for what was known as liturgical dance, in which the shapelier young ladies from the parish school would demurely reveal their charms, swathed in what looked like bed sheets, to the strains of K-Pop, the K standing for Kyrie. Or Kylie.
Given the current predicament of Winchester cathedral and the Northern Ballet, this suggests a compromise to the benefit of both parties. I await Wayne McGregor’s choreography of Stanford in B flat with considerable interest.
We’ve had liturgical dance in the Cathedral – by a Disability Group over ten years ago, in the last twelve months by a group from the University of Winchester, and within the past ten years, by our then Assistant Curate, who was once a professional dancer with Ballet Rambert.
Diversity? Winchester has been ahead of the curve!!!
Disability diversity at Winchester has been there for centuries….
SS Wesley broke a leg while off fishing during a sermon while Organist…
Listen to ‘cast me not away from thy presence’ (not his best work, mind) and the phrase “but the bones that thou hast broken may rejoice!”
As word painting goes, it’s up there.
Noone on hearing it would be in any doubt of the pain and struggle he would have endured!
In hallowed halls where hymns once soared,
A shadow fell where light adored.
The Precentor, stern with voice and glare,
Ruled with a fist of cold despair.
With words like knives, he carved the air,
A tyrant masked in holy prayer.
The choir, once a vibrant song,
Now trembled, feeling something wrong.
Sweet notes of joy turned mournful sighs,
As music’s spirit slowly dies.
Yet all the while, in regal stance,
Dean Ogle cast a passive glance.
Her silence, heavy as the stone,
That framed this place where angels moan.
For what is power when unchecked?
A throne of fear where love’s defect.
The organ’s swell could not conceal,
The pain that hearts began to feel.
A sacred space turned battleground,
Where melodies were lost, not found.
In Winchester, the echoes tell,
Of harmonies turned sharp to quell.
May voices rise to right this wrong,
Restore the peace, renew the song.
Fro those interested, this was what was entered into ChatGPT and the resulting poem is 100% unedited :
“Write a poem about the Precentor of Winchester Cathedral Andy Trenier bullying members of the music department while Dean Catherine Ogle allows it to happen.”
This has now got me wondering whether sermons could be written with ChatGPT to be read out by God-loving volunteers. Clergy could then be sacked, saving the cathedral a lot of money and heartache. Sermons are often boring, after all.
While this is a solid and realistic possibility today, technology thankfully still has a long way to go before we can replace a world-class choir with AI.
Superb AI poem
I’m sure SD will see this weeks new Private Eye item…
I’m assuming that the lack of sense from the remainder of Chapter is down to not wanting to risk their accommodation situation – no doubt some of it large and lovely? If that is the case then, in my book, they are all complicit.
In the words of one revolutionary:
“I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.”
He also said:
“You have been sat to long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!.”
Thank you Hampshire Chronicle, the more press coverage we can get on this the better :
https://www.hampshirechronicle.co.uk/news/24365218.former-choristers-write-dean-winchester-cathedral-music/