Student orchestra rebels against ‘intimidating’ director
OrchestrasThe University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign is in turmoil over a student protest that is rather closer to home than the Middle East.
The target is Carolyn Watson, an Australian who is director of orchestras on campus and music director of the La Porte County Symphony Orchestra.
Here’s what the kids are saying on Reddit:
Our director of orchestras, Dr. Carolyn Watson, was hired on two years ago and immediately given tenure. Since then, her students and TAs have experienced abuse, intimidation, and retaliation at her hand. For over a year, multiple students have tried to go through university channels to correct this abusive behavior, including Title IX, HR, OAE (Office of Access and Equity), and two School of Music Directors.
After a year, these patterns of behavior have only continued, forcing the student body to take action and demand change. We started a petition for her removal, and got over 500 signatures in one week, including 83% of enrolled orchestra members!
Watson is conducting the academy orchestra this week at Monash University in Melbourne, altogether a quieter place.
Remember this?
https://slippedisc.com/2017/10/university-suspends-solti-conductor-for-intimidation/
I remember this one:
https://slippedisc.com/2019/05/us-conductor-charges-university-with-racial-discrimination/
What does that have to do with this case?
That guy came on this blog to defend himself and it became obvious that he had no people skills. So I’m not just dismissing this as a case of snowflake students. I would still like to have Dr. Watson’s side of the story.
We have asked for it.
I met Dr. Watson at a conference, and she was one of the more intelligent and empathetic conductors I’ve encountered. I don’t know what she said.
But I would bet money that everything the petition accuses her of would be considered “passionate” and “inspiring” if a male conductor behaved the same way.
Read the reddit. You have no direct knowledge, yet feel the need to comment?
Read it. Please.
Stop saying that and link the Reddit.
I was in the orchestra when she interviewed for the job. She did come off as kind and passionate which is why she was a lot of our first choice to become director of orchestras. However, the way she has acted since coming to UIUC has not been what we expected. She treats the entire orchestra with disrespect and has used her power to treat her TA’s with abuse.
Again, please actually read the petition. Myself and all of the orchestra members I’ve talked to about it were very excited to work with a woman conductor. Please do not place blame on the students who have been treated poorly. Every thing the petition describes would also be considered abusive and disrespectful by a male counterpart.
I read this article and I read the petition. Neither got into specifics or mentioned sexual harrassment. It just came across to me as “The mean lady conductor hurt our feelings by having high standards.” I am also aware of another woman conductor who was a great teacher, but got fired from a university job after criticizing a narcissistic student. The student in question (a woman in her 50s who went back to school as a hobby) bragged to me “I got that b**** fired.”
Conducting happens to be a profession where certain emotions are coded as “powerful” for men and “unhinged” or the B-word for women. And those double standards are keeping a lot of women from achieving what they deserve.
But I had no idea that the issues involved sexual harrassment and am very disappointed to hear this about Carolyn. I am sorry that you all had that experience.
Typical Christian abuse-affiliate.
Care to elaborate
love this quote!
The truth is that on college campuses, the inmates think they run the asylum, and many times they are right. People just out of high school arrive at universities and start telling the teachers (often people who have enjoyed significant careers in music) how to teach and what to teach. This “student-centered learning” just affirms narrow, uninformed worldview of the student and ends up frustrating both the teacher (who is unable to impart any skill or correction) and the student (who wants to the just be coddled and affirmed.) If you don’t believe me, as any music school professor who has to deal with undergraduates. It is a crisis.
Before commenting, maybe read the source (reddit in this case). Do it. Please.
If you do, and still feel that this is just a bunch of inmates trying to take over the asylum, then comment with your rebuttal of their claims with your own personal experiences in the matter.
Otherwise, why do you feel the need to comment?
Gets the kids ready for the pros.
Stop whining and start practicing.
How much of it is real and how much of it is snowflake, coddled student perspective that they are being told they stink and have to hit the practice rooms?
Here is yet another reason tenure should be abolished by every college and university (and orchestra) everywhere. No professor, an employee of the university should have the luxury of tenure to fall back on for bad behavior. It’s time has come and gone. Give them a contract for a fixed period with a morality clause and the ability to quickly fire for cause.
Yes. No one should have a job for life. I remember professors not even bothering to show up to class because no consequences if they don’t. Meanwhile students ( and parents) wondering why they paid $60,000 to be here. So yes, students should complain and walk out and find someone who actually is worth giving $60,000. And that’s just 1 year.
No tenure= no academic freedom. Mine as well make faculty report a quarterly forecast of student income based upon their daily class objectives.
Can’t really say anything because the petition lacks even a single example of Mrs Watson “intimidating behavior” and “abuse”.
I agree. The writer of the petition is certainly very angry by something she said, it would help to have examples.
I’ve seen Ms Watson work over several weeks at the Aspen Music Festival, I’ve never witnessed anything remotely objectionable. Quite the contrary, she was skilled, generally cheerful with a gentle sense of humor.
Take a look of this
https://www.reddit.com/r/UIUC/comments/1ci0k2x/our_orchestra_director_has_been_mistreating_her/?share_id=VnHBYjdI8G5wxfxyRomBf&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&utm_source=share&utm_term=3&rdt=38039
Carolyn was a disaster at the University of Kansas. Just before she left, the students rebelled. They told the faculty that if she returned the following year, they wouldn’t play for her. I know faculty members who gave her great recommendations for the Illinois job to help get her out of Kansas.
That reminds me of a hilarious episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm…
Foisted!
It’s a good thing that scary, impatient, intimidating conductors never happen in professional life. I’m so pleased that these children have managed to remove, hopefully, the last bastion of slightly emotionally intrusive conductors from the world. Now all of us can relax knowing those children will sleep easy in their Spongebob PJ’s in the dorms.
There is a big difference between an educational setting and a professional setting. No one in either situation needs to be coddled, nor do they need to be intimidated or otherwise abused.
Just respect and hard work. How difficult is that?
It wasn’t like this at band camp!
Many years ago, at the opening of a high school music institute at Northwestern, the conductor strode to the podium, raised himself on his toes and announced, “From this moment on, this podium is the center of your universe, and I am your god.”. None of us dared say a word. Times have changed, I guess.
Yes, they have. And thank goodness.
No one should be forced into idolatry just to get high-level musical training. The students should have laughed that blasphemer right off the podium–or gotten up and walked out.
They certainly have. Any self respecting student would just laugh in the face of such a ridiculous, pompous ass.
Conducting a school orchestra makes you a ‘god’? Delusional.
Its 2024. If you can’t teach with respect for your students, find another job.
Clearly there is an issue. Time for operational oversight to step in.
Caroline Watson used to work as a teacher at the University of Kansas. However, during her time there, she had conflicts with the dean, faculty members, graduate teaching assistants, and students. Many people found her to be difficult to work with. I can attest to this as someone who played in the KU orchestra for several years. Therefore, I am fully supportive of the University of Illinois students who are taking action on this matter. The orchestra at Illinois has many doctoral and graduate students who can attest to the genuine quality of her work, which is different from the University of Kansas, where most of the students were undergraduates pursuing other majors.
While these students seem to be refining their sensitivities year in year out, the toughest lesson hasn’t changed one bit as of 2024. If you suck, you’ll be out of a job. I’m sure they’ll tell you nicely.
Totally not the job of a teacher. A teacher teaches.Obviously, this one can’t. Its not the NY Phil.
What A bunch of Wusses students . Give me break . As a graduate of Juilliard that takes no prisoners stop babying yourself in the real world is not like that. If you’re playing in a studio orchestra in Los Angeles and you missed notes and you flub it on the first then 2nd take of recording, they’ll never call you back again . Stop being babies it won’t help you in the real world. The conductor should kick ass, so it helps you get into the real world of cut of competitiveness
Q: How do you know if someone went to Juilliard?
A: They’ll tell you.
These mid level college orchestra gigs are magnets for megalomaniacal mediocrities whose careers didn’t go the way they expected. I had one (white guy, for the record) who carried an electronic tuner around to each wind player and made them tune individually, narrating “sharp” or “flat” (as if that were helpful), while the whole orchestra waited. At another school the guy (white, again) sent out a whiny email to the entire orchestra complaining about bad student evaluations. It read like a drunken email sent to an ex after a breakup. It was so pathetic I almost felt bad for him.
I had a few good ones, too, but the losers are even more obvious when you’re already gigging professionally while in school.
Here’s another way to look at the situation. Conductors of university orchestras, bands, and choirs are there to produce outstanding performing groups, but they have another important role.
They constantly model behaviors and other rehearsal practices, and ensemble members (consisting of future performers, teachers, conductors, etc.) watch closely. The young performers might not always like what they see, but it’s very easy for them to start emulating their director’s less-than-desirable practices once they begin their careers. It never works. A young teacher who loudly berates his or her students when things don’t go well (just as the university conductor did) will quickly find himself/herself out of a job.
Non-music majors are often in these university ensembles because they want to enjoy the experience. Some go on to perform in community non-professional groups and/or become major donors. There is no good reason to alienate these individuals.
The best university conductors (and I have seen many) have high standards. They are firm but fair, and understand they’re directing a university orchestra (or band or choir), not a major professional orchestra. Some will stop during a rehearsal and say something like, “For all of you future teachers and/or conductors, here’s a great way to handle a difficult passage in the music like the one we’re encountering here.”
I have been a university band director and a high school orchestra director. Teachers have no right to intimidate students for any reason. The function of the teacher is to serve the students. The students are not in the classroom to serve the teacher. But many teachers and administrators view students as commodities that enhance their careers. Congratulations to all the students who have had their voices heard. I hope the administration is listening!
I wish I was surprised, and this seems to be the reaction from everyone who sees this story in Sydney. I played under Watson in Sydney years ago, and she was abusive and uninspiring to everyone, especially the violins.
Hi, I’m a writer for Illinois’ school newspaper and was wondering if I’d be able to use your comment in my article or if you’d be able to provide more information. You can reach me at ms98@illinimedia.com
To me the issue is more with the school itself than with the conductor. What kind of university hires someone for a music faculty job and immediately gives them tenure?!?!?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TETziQGSGqI….
Well, err….kind of…
So, to translate the petition into simple English, there are four complaints:
1) she expects the Teaching Assistants to put effort into assisting with teaching,
2) she expects students to play to a high standard, rather than lowering standards to allow for claims of disability,
3) pointing out where students are not playing well enough
4) expecting players to have learned their parts, and be ready to rehearse.
It’s easy to forget that a University is a place to learn, to be challenged, and to overcome difficulties.
Oh dear, a mismatch of expectations. This is not going to end well.
Poor things.
Grow a spine…. She demands standards and people take it personally
Read the entire petition. A primary complaint is her musical
incompetence.
Immediately given tenure?
Who is that good and that proven?
The conductor of a small town orchestra that gives five concerts per year?
Everyone here is presuming the students are silly woke snowflakes, but… it is entirely possible for a college to hire some for a position who is not fit for the job.
I’ve observed it multiple times. The people making the hiring decisions in these setting are rarely expert in the field they are choosing a candidate for. Yet they must have imagined they were to give immediate tenure.
It’s absolutely infuriating that so many commenters who have minimal knowledge of the situation are so sure the students here are in the wrong. I’m a UIUC student with personal friends who’ve been mistreated by Professor Watson. This is NOT about high expectations. This is about unprofessional behavior that would likely not be tolerated without the power dynamics involved in teaching. There are many extremely demanding professors in the music department who haven’t generated this kind of student response–because this is about abuse. You shouldn’t get to keep your job if you’re abusive and can’t even teach effectively.