Underrated English maestros (and some overrated ones)
OrchestrasThe sad death of Sir Andrew Davis brings to mind several compatriots whose phlegmatism, or levity, was mistaken for amateurism.
A couple of lists to play with:
Underrated
1 Albert Coates
2 Sir Adrian Boult
3 Sir Reginald Goodall
4 Vernon Handley
5 Raymond Leppard
6 Richard Hickox
7 Sian Edwards
8 Rudolf Schwarz
9 Norman Del Mar
10 Iona Brown
Overrated
Sir Malcolm Sargent
Sir Thomas Beecham
Wyn Morris
Christopher Hogwood
Jan Latham-Koenig
Gareth Malone
Your call.
Overrated:
Ed Gardner
Underrated:
David Parry! Just the most wonderful musician, who hold audiences enthralled, and should have been made far more of by our industry. Insight, entertainment, a spontaneous conductor who musicians love.
Agreed on the wonderful David Parry
Parry, not really. Played under both, Parry can´t hold a candle to Gardner…..
Sorry, there is no comparison. Parry is workmanlike but Gardner is brilliant. His ‘Midsummer Marriage’ with the LPO and ENO Chorus in 2022 was simply superb; he had total control of this very complex score.
When i interviewed him, Andrew Davis singled out Basil Cameron – now virtually forgotten
interesting…. highly capable but dismissed by the gatekeepers as workaday.
Gatekeepers indeed……
I still have Basil Cameron’s superb LP recording, made in the early 1960s, of John Ireland’s magnificent Piano Concerto, with Colin Horsley as soloist. I gave the premiere of this superb work in the countries of the former Soviet Union with the State Academic Symphony Orchestra of the Republic of Kazakhstan, conducted by the late Tolepbergen Abdrashev. Cameron’s reading of the orchestral part of this work on the 1960s LP recording is really inspiring. On the subject of seriously top-class conductors, Tolepbergen Abdrashev, or ‘Tolep’ as he was universally known, was most certainly in the very highest class of conductor. I don’t know if he ever conducted outside the countries of the former Soviet Union, but wherever he conducted he was hugely appreciated.
Overrated
Thomas Sondergard
Not English
Let’s open this up to all nationalities – should run and run!
Likewise Rudolph Schwarz, though he provided a memorable chunk of my musical education when he came to Cheltenham with the CBSO
Neither was Schwarz, albeit he became a British citizen.
Not an English conductor – or even a British conductor!!!
I would agree with many on your under-rated list. Doesn’t the Vienna Phil still have a large photo of Boult in their offices – I saw it once.
Add Jeffrey Tate
Take Chris Hogwood off the over-rated list, please. His Martinu, and much else, was special.
Add to the over-rated list:
N Marriner (captain of HMS Dull as Dishwater)
Norrington (no vibrato, please!)
JEG (podium punch up artist)
Sally, have you ever had the privilege of working with Sir Neville Marriner, or have you listened to any of his hundreds of recordings, objectively?
yes, I saw him at work on many occasions and have heard several recordings – it’s magnolia music making. Acceptable and competent, but I just don’t get excited by it (and, yes, I fully accept that says more about me than anything about NM)
Rattle definitely most overrated but definitely not Hogwood nor Norrington! Both much more exciting than Simon
Norrington was definetly much more than “no vibrato”…
Hogwash’s Martinu was dreadful; fart oo fast and uncontrolled.
Sally: Hogwood’s Martinu was disastrously hasty and uncontrolled. Ugh. In his true element, early music, period instruments…he was fine!
Almost perfect list of the over-rated, just missing Mark Elder …
Come on. The most overrated English Maestro has to be Sir Simon Rattle. How can you forget about him?
Maybe because Sir Simon is not overrated (although his effort to be “popular” and his “conga dance” episodes can be annoying).
So true! I was astonished by the applause he received from the Berlin Phil and the warmth of the audience reception at the Philharmonie when he conducted a concert of Dvorak and Gerhardt.
Do these people not know how overrated he is I wondered.
You can see similar displays of exuberant audience response to Sir Simon’s work in the Digital Concert Hall. This because every alternative row of seats is occupied by employees of The Gramophone, who are nursing automatic pistols with long silencers. They are the ones who are holding their programmes upside down.
Nowt so deaf as those as won’t listen.
absolutely correct – never understood the hype for so little
Yes, as a perpetual. whinger! The difference between him and Andrew says it all.
Who ever listened twice to a Simon’s record? Maybe he’s a conductor to be heard live. He can make a Janacek Sinfonietta sound great.His appointment to BPO, what a bad joke….
Ask a BPO member whether he was a bad joke. They mostly adored him.
so true
Underrated and Overrated? Who did the ratings? Most conductors have their acolytes and their detractors.
As far as Wyn Morris goes, he was reputedly a difficult person, which might account for his low profile and his being virtually forgotten by now. But his recording of Mahler’s ‘Des Knaben Wunderhorn’ with Janet Baker and Geraint Evans alone puts him in the Pantheon.
As for Beecham, his recordings of Delius guaranteed his place there, let alone many others. Sargent too, beneath his ‘Flash Harry’ image, was a fine conductor too.
In my own personal opinion (and I risk being flayed for this), one of the most overrated conductors is Karajan. His performances were chromium-plated flawless feats of technical perfection but without the slightest hint of warmth or humanity – totally soulless.
OK – I’ll take my punishment like a man.
As far as I’m concerned, Sir Thomas Beecham was one of the most stylish and unique conductors of all time. His Haydn recordings still hold up in spite of their age and anachronisms, his Wagnerian rendition of Handel’s Messiah is a hoot, his final (unintentional) recording of Richard Strauss Ein Heldenleben is both powerful and touching. Let’s not forget his direction of La Boheme.
And whilst you are on a Richard Strauss kick, don’t forget Beecham conducting Elektra
Beecham’s (Goossens’) Messiah, with its massive orchestra and chorus, is a blast and much more enjoyable than the wimpy versions that prevail today, and his was my introduction to Ein Heldenleben, with a luscious sound rarely encountered since. I can do without his (or anyone else’s) Delius, however.
The thing about Beecham is that orchestras – usually the severest critics of conductors – adored him.
Absolutely agree about Tommy B.
I don’t think you’re in danger. I struggle to think of any conductor whose stock fell so dramatically immediately following his death. Only now is he going through some kind of rehabilitation. I’d agree that a lot of his recordings and performances were brilliant but cold, but his Bruckner really was something special.
I agree with Anthony Sayer about Karajan. His Bruckner is wonderful, as are his first recording of Verdi’s Falstaff, his Walküre with Vickers and Janowitz, and his Prokofiev 5.
I also have a soft spot for his (several) recordings of Mozart’s “Lodron” Divertimento K. 287. I know that the performance style is anachronistic, but the horns play like angels!
His three B’s – Beethoven, Brahms, and Bruckner – are spectacular.
Some fine Strauss, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius, and Shostakovich, too!
(I know, HvK doesn’t need my support)
“Brilliant but cold” applies to his Sibelius, but in that case, those are both virtues. As regards his Bruckner, the problem is that there are so many conductors whose Bruckner is special. Case in point – George Tintner. In some ways HvK was his own worst enemy, re-recording to excess, dissipating the energy of earlier recordings with all of his remakes.
Not English!
My take on Karajan: unquestionably among the greatest conductors, but also overrated: his unrivaled fame wasn’t in tandem with his talent. Other conductors around born within fifteen years of 1908 were arguably less famous and overall better. Erich Kleiber, Ferenc Fricsay, Guido Cantelli instantly come to my mind.
Never saw him live but I cherish recordings of Sibelius 6&7 and a Mozart D minor concerto with Kempff before the publicists really got to him.
Who did the ratings? Obviously Mr Lebrecht. I don’t even know what he means by over or under rated. Must be a not enough real music news to report.
Underrated Robin Ticciati
not by himself.
Very overrated
Underrated:
(Sir) Edward Downes
He turned his BBC Philharmonic into a world class orchestra.
He was one of the greatest conductor’s and musicologists of the last century and early 21st century.
Fully agree about Edward Downes, who conducted the best performance of Turangalîla I ever heard.
His Rachmaninov 2 that came with a 1994 edition of BBC Music is the finest performance of the work I’ve heard. His performances of Respighi fill a void, as do those of Gliere and George Lloyd, if you’re into that sort of thing…
George Hurst and Bryden Thomson were responsible for that.
Yes; 2 of my favourite conductors from my teenage years; my second ever concert (of now thousands) was ‘Jack’ T with Szeryng in the Brahms. Mr A…..many years ago I met you in Cranleigh when I gave a prize to your son for his poetry!
Downes made those great Gliere recordings too. I don’t know why he liked Gliere so much but I’m glad he did.
I quite agree. He brought a fresh approach to the mainstream repertoire as well as championing the works of contemporary.composers. 17 June 2024 marks his centenary although it is doubtful that it will receive the same attention as that of Neville Marriner!
Add to the underrated (but not in his own estimation) Frank Shipway. A wonderful Alpine Symphony with the Sao Paolo orchestra among other things…………
I fully agree with John Kelly
Could never understand why Shipway wasn’t more famous, even just here in Britain. I sang with him on several occasions and, although he consciously modelled himself on Karajan, with whom he worked, and could be difficult to work with, the musical results were something really special. He was completely unafraid of big scores.
Yes, I did a Rachmaninov Bells at RFH with him…dud like him, a lot.
Criminally underrated- Bramwell Tovey
agree
Always loved his appearances with the NY Phil.in Summer and his wry commentaries — sorely missed
Overrated:
John Wilson
Pushed by the demented BBC like a posh parent pushes their snotty child. The endless recordings on Chandos show a complete lack of depth.
Underrated:
Wyn Morris
His Mahler 8 recording is one of the greats.
“Pushed by the demented BBC like a posh parent pushes their snotty child.”
Well that doesn’t sound at all unhinged. Definitely an opinion to take seriously.
Isn’t it surprising that so many front desk musicians are happy to play for John Wilson? Would I be right in suggesting that here is another man who has relied on personal connections and avoided the Arts Council like the plague (to quote another commenter in this thread) and has done very well in a surprisingly short period of time?
From John Wilson i expect brilliance, precision, légèreté….and get it in his chosen repertoire. Certainly not all is equally successful (Enigma Var..), but “depth” can come later.
Judging from recordings, Beecham, Boult, Goodall and Coates are the only good ones.
Let’s be clear, “underrated” does not automatically mean good, “overrated” does not automatically mean bad, and one isn’t automatically equivalent to the other; King Charles is underrated and Queen Elizabeth was overrated, but King Charles is still no Queen Elizabeth, however you rate them.
Is it a given of English music criticism that every conductor is either overrated or underrated?
Would seem so. Here are two more to conjure with: Bryden Thomson, Norman Del Mar
Yes and that applies to the critics as well
Underrated: Sir Charles Mackerras? He moved to London in 1947 so he was practically English, right?
Oh dear……………..
Mackerras was no household name. That’s the only way he was “underrated”. He was, however, a connoisseur’s choice. He was very much a musician’s musician and rightly so, I think.
Depends on your household
Totally agree.
Was Mackerras ever naturalized, or did he remain with only the Australian Citizenship?
If we are to include naturalized conductors (which Rudolf Schwarz certainly is), then Constantin Silvestri is criminally underrated.
He was fabulous and for instance much better than Rattle who only profits from the sick woke atmosphere in London
As quoted elsewhere it’s worth considering the words of the great Kathy Burke-‘I love being ‘woke’. It’s much nicer than being an ignorant f*cking twat’.
Certainly those who use that ridiculous expression unironically are always worth ignoring.
You could argue similarly that Klemperer was an English conductor.
There were reports that Mackerras was hampered professionally by his Australian accent, which is odd because from what I’ve heard he didn’t have one.
Klemperer, as far as I know, never acquired British citizenship, unlike Silvestri.
Beecham overrated? OK, he’s been dead a long time, but a lot of the recordings I’ve heard of his are delightful. And the source of some of the best quotes.
Interesting thing about Beecham: Clara Haskil said she did not like working with him, finding him cold and not communicative in rehearsals. But she loved working with Barbirolli.
Many people enjoy Coca-Cola as well.
I have a Beecham rehearsal lp: “I may not be the finest British conductor but I’m a damn sight better than any foreigner!”
Both Richard Armstrong and Edward Downes are/were criminally underrated internationally. Richard Farnes is also very much underrated.
Completely agree that Jeffrey Tate and Edward Downes remain underrated. Richard Hickox too was wonderfully musical.
I’d also add Norman del Mar.
If we can extend the ‘English’ to ‘British’, how about adding Alexander Gibson and Bryden Thomson to the underrated list?
And amongst living conductors, there’s of course the pioneering women – Sian Edwards especially struck me as good – and people like Mark Wigglesworth.
Agree on all counts, John.
Agree with most of this but could never warm to Hickox. He recorded far too much and it all sounds the same!
Shamefully underrated:
George Hurst
Absolutely Hurst was an inspirational conductor…
He was also a major influence on a whole generation of conductors through his teaching.
Yes, that cracking BBC PO Elgar 1 on Naxos!
Performed Brahms with George Hurst (1992). His comment: “The last time I was here, thirty years ago, you hated me….I wonder if you’ll still hate me…”
A great Brahms’ 4th…..
George Hurst (1926-2012) is much underrated as a conductor, despite having had an enormous influence as a teacher of conducting, with pupils including the late Sir Andrew Davis, and also Sir John Eliot Gardiner and David Atherton (so far not mentioned here). His performance of Mahler’s Symphony No. 2 inspired Sir Simon Rattle to pursue his conducting career, and Rattle gained much in his period as Assistant Conductor during the period in which George was with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra as Artistic Advisor and founder of the Bournemouth Sinfonietta.
George Hurst’s leadership of what is now the BBC Philharmonic from 1958-1968 was crucial in its development, and contributed to its standing as an orchestra of international renown.
Aside from his undoubted influence as a teacher, he was perhaps one of the finest interpreters of the music of Brahms and Elgar of the last century.
His considerable musicianship has been lauded by conducting students and orchestral musicians alike.
His recordings for Saga Records and Naxos demonstrate his considerable gifts as a much underrated conductor, and his radio broadcasts of the standard symphonic repertoire were full of insight and admirable musical integrity.
His impeccable conducting technique, his teaching, and musical insights, have been valuable to many British conductors who now enjoy international fame.
Absolutely! One of the best Rite of Springs I ever heard was conducted by him and, visually he might have been conducting a Haydn symphony. And don’t forget the generations of conductors he taught at Sherborne and elsewhere on summer courses. Quite a lot of impressive first performances too.
Overrated?
What about Daniel Harding? He was known for being rude even to the best orchestras (like Vienna Philharmonic) and the nicest players. Despite being a son of an Oxford don he failed to pass entry exams to Cambridge University, then got accepted through connections, only to drop off after the first year (if I remember correctly). How far would he go without following in the shadow of his mentor Simon Rattle and Rattle’s agent who pushed him from one project to another on the “youngest ever” ticket? (Mind you – unlike Harding, Rattle went on to complete his university studies at St Anne’s College at Oxford University even after his early conducting successes, but also completed a full 3-year music course at the Royal Academy). He never completed any conducting or music studies, never had to compete against his peers in any conducting competition.
Is it fair to say that Harding was the first one of many young and under-educated conductors pushed by agents who were eager to find a suitable repacement for the likes of Salonen, Rattle or Barenboim?
What do you think?
Agree. Harding is and always was a fraud.
Harding’s career trajectory continues to puzzle me, he continues to conduct the world’s leading orchestras, filling in at the drop of a hat (see recent post on replacing Barenboim with the Berliners), seemingly completely free of any duties that an airline pilot’s busy schedule might preclude, so either Air France pilots are on perpetual strike (which doesn’t sound that crazy for the French) or his colleagues are the most supportive co-workers in the world…
But the most puzzling thing is, Harding quit the Orchestre de Paris (because he didn’t like their sound), which allowed the ascension of Makela, which gave Makela the platform to be appointed to the Concertgebouw, which gave him the imprimatur to be appointed to Chicago….
Does Harding regret his decision one bit? Does he look at Makela and think, you know, I was that wunderkind, the Concertgebouw by right belongs to me?!
Yeah, but he’ll give you flying lessons any time
But can Simon Rattle fly a plane…….?
Rattle studied (English?) at Oxford for a year and didn’t take a degree. I’ve always thought he was indulged by the University authorities. This, of course, does not affect his status as a great conductor.
The people who employ Harding music be fools, according to your estimations. Perhaps he became confused between “legato”, “fermata” and “V1: rotate” and “minimums: retard”!! “Pull up; terrain”!!
I don’t think Harding is rated at all neither over or under. Boring concerts and repertoire. Mahler 9th…..6th…who cares….A conductor who can make Planets sound dull….
Agents push their clients. It is what they do.
I don’t think finishing at Oxford or Cambridge is any way the mark of a great conductor – most don’t set foot there you know! What relevance has that got? And conductors never used to do any ‘formal’ conducting studies at all. I don’t really know if Harding is any good but Oxbridge credentials are no guide to anything, that’s just silly.
I think you are a little unfair. I knew him a little when he played the trumpet in the NYO. Even then it was clear that he had a sense of drive, and the determination to conduct. If my memory serves me correctly he organised and conducted some of his fellow musicians in Pierrot Lunaire and it was something of a triumph. He was in his mid teens. Whilst Oxbridge and conducting competitions are useful for some they are not the be all and end all. I’m not at all surprised that he’s made it in a tough and highly competitive world.
Sir Colin Davis has not been mentioned. An interesting situation with him because while I always felt him to be underrated – or simply taken for granted, which comes to the same thing – in Britain he was somewhat overrated in Europe. This is a strange paradox because some would feel his best work on both record and in performance was achieved in the UK. What’s the view out there?
You cannot say that Sir Colin was underrated. I would say he probably had the most perfect career amongst all conductors in history. He was a legend during his lifetime. He had long partnerships with the best orchestras in the world like Boston Symphony, Bavarian Radio Orchestra, New York Philharmonic, Staatskapelle Dresden – very careful selection. Ok, maybe he could spend more time with Vienna Philharmonic, Berlin Philharmonic and Concertgebouw. But the real envy of any conductor were his positions with London’s top music institutions – Royal Opera, BBC Symphony and London Symphony. He managed to keep his high international profile while working with world class orchestras in one city. Ok, I know that he did not always have easy time at Covent Garden, but still, for most of his illustrious professional life he was able to go to his own family home after each performance and rehearsal and still be well known around the world. How many conductors (mostly jet-propelled these days) can claim that?
His best work was captured, briefly, with Boston in the 70s
No Pritchard, Leppard, Handley, Gibson, Groves?
Colin Davis did great work in Boston.
Yes to Charles Groves! Even (even!) Dave Hurwitz, who has some odd hang-ups about British conductors, tends to speak well of him.
I agree with Mr Munro about Sir John Pritchard.
His achievements at Glyndebourne, Liverpool, the BBC and Köln alone should have ensured his inclusion in the list of under-rated.
He was also Kiri te Kanawa’s favourite conductor despite his insistence that she pay more attention to the partitura than learning new roles from listening to CD’s.
Handley is there in the underrated list.
Add Jeffrey Tate to underrated.
Thank you.
Underrated: Bryden Thomson, Sir Alexander Gibson.
Were you considering Gibson as rated? Even if so, terribly underrated!
Agreed, though the Scots on here might perhaps point out that he wasn’t English….
Underrated: Sir Charles Groves.
I would not call Boult underrated. He has a solid and deserved reputation.
I heard Sir Charles Groves a few times in the 60s and 70s. I wasn’t impressed, and my view was reinforced when a London orchestral musician told me the following joke:
Q. What’s the difference between a Radox foot-bath and Sir Charles Groves?
A. One bucks the feet up, the other…
I can only judge the recordings, mostly of British music. He also improved the Liverpool Philharmonic.
He was very useless indeed, it has to be said.
I wd have thunk Sir Charles Gropes was rated correctly!
You’d have to be quite silly to take Sir Thomas Beecham entirely seriously, but a great deal sillier not to.
Beecham once referred to Toscanini as ” that Italian band leader” .
He brought the works of Delius to light but little else.
His recordings are by and large Reference Versions. Scheherazade, the Balakirev 1st, Peer Gynt suites, Carmen…his French lollipops are without equal. His Mozart and Haydn superb. His autobiography is quite good, too.
Try listening to his live Elektra from 1947 in the presence of the composer Sir…….
..”the Italian bandmaster..” And his Berlioz, Bizet, Balakirev and Puccini…..?
…”the Italian bandmaster!” And Beecham’s Berlioz, Bizet, Balakirev…?
William among other things his German “Die Zauberflote” to many audiophiles is the best on records of that opera. Beecham was quite extraordinary with many more things than Delius. Read his autobiography “A Mingled Chime” if you have any interest in posting about him without benefit of knowledge.,
And those works by Delius are incredibly dull.
He was right. Toscanini was atrocious after WW2
There’s more to a great conductor than simply churning out benchmark recordings of so-called “core repertoire” (just as there are more useful and necessary things that conductors can be doing than performing yet more Mahler and Beethoven cycles so that a small coterie of obsessives can geek out over whether they’re three minutes faster or slower than the preferred dead German maestro’s account from 1965).
It’s arguable that there isn’t a single major orchestra or serious conductor in the modern world whose style isn’t influenced directly or indirectly by Hogwood. You don’t have to like his recorded interpretations to acknowledge that they were absolutely dominant in their field at the time that non-specialist early music conductors started incorporating “period” elements into their work with symphony orchestras. The fact that it’s almost unthinkable now to do Messiah with a full string section is down to him. The existence of the OAE – the first major period instrument orchestras to work and record with non-specialist conductors as a matter of routine – is also indirectly down to Hogwood.
His model of orchestral funding (make your own friends and contacts; stay clear of the Arts Council at all costs) is looking increasingly prescient too. In every respect but as an interpreter, he’s startlingly underrated.
IC225’s comments about Christopher Hogwood are very perceptive. HIPP has developed enormously since his day, and I no longer enjoy his performances as much as those of – say – Richard Egarr. But Hogwood’s role as a pioneer should be celebrated forever.
Depends on who’s doing the rating. Sargent got routinely roasted by Beecham and was just the other day trashed by an American YouTube critic for being a working class kid who made his way up. But his best work was really remarkable even if people only remember him for the Proms today.
Boult is another interesting case. Record critics (in the UK, at least) always find something to rhapsodize over, his Nikisch pedigree was to be cherished, and he really knew the business. But much of what he did was kind of dull.
And just how many of Sir Adrian Boult’s recordings or live performances have you heard? Give a listen to his Schumann, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Berg, Mahler, Beethoven, Sibelius, etc., and his multiple performances of English composers and then tell us he was “kind of dull.” His intent was to give us what the composers intended, but that is not to say he always followed that maxim. His performances are some of the most satisfying available and I have saying that since the 1940s when I began collecting records.
…”routinely roasted…?” Examples please! Beecham certainly enjoyed joking at Sargent’s expense but it was always received in good spirit and surprisingly, the two got on splendidly, unlike Sir T and Sir A Boult, who descrobe Sir T as “loathsome as a man and musician…”
Tod Handley once told a good story about Boult. He was once one of a panel of judges at a conducting competition but, after they’d all worked, had to leave early, so decided to start the ball rolling by declaring, ‘I liked the American’. ‘Oh, but, Sir Adrian, he was so dull!’. ‘Well, everyone knows I’m a dull conductor – maybe that’s why I like him!’.
That American YouTube critic wasn’t our old friend Boxed Set Bernie by any chance? The man whose list of Greatest Living Conductors included two lady Americans but no Britons at all?
I would say Norrington is overrated but his current, quite dismal reputation, wherein most have come to accurately peg him as a charlatan, I think has him rated more or less rightly. I would have said JEG some years ago on the basis of his Beethoven (HIP or even HIP-lite Beethoven will always be an abject failure regardless of who does it), but his Bach cantata cycle is far and away the best that’s ever been done, and that alone is a monumental achievement. Just listen to Es ist Vollbracht from BWV 159 and compare it to any other recording of the piece. Blows everyone else, most of whom play it much too fast, out of the water. Only competition is Fischer-Dieskau, though thanks largely to the singing as opposed to Forster’s largely indifferent conducting.
Putting to one side the two lists for a moment (overrated conductors…surely that’s some form of tortology in itself?!), we really should call out the fact that ALL British musicians are grotesquely underrated by the society they seek to enrich.
The notion that Beecham is overrated is laughable. His Haydn and Mozart recordings alone are among if not THE very best that have ever been done. That’s without even mentioning his top-notch Berlioz or peerless Delius.
Alexander Shelley?
Underrated: Trevor Pinnock
From: Richard Stanbrook.
22nd April 2024.
I’d add the late, great Vernon Handley to the underrated list. Alongside Richard Hickox, David Lloyd – Jones, Martyn Brabbins and, of course, Sir Andrew Davis, he helped champion so many British composers who, otherwise, would still be languishing in obscurity.
I don’t know if he is from the UK, but I’ll mention Richard Bernas, not least for premiering the complete “Odyssey” by Nicholas Maw, with the BBC Symphony Orchestra on 8th April 1990. (agreed: the aforementioned are personal choices of mine and others may disagree).
I think conductors are ‘overrated’ full stop Norman. Not just English ones & those you list seem fair enough- they were good in some repertoire less so in others. I do think the current, over hyped, crop of home grown conductors under a certain age (nameless- but we can all guess who they are & several have already been mentioned in not exactly exalted terms on this thread!) have egos not matched by their talent levels on the podium. Somebody mentioned Charlie Mackerras- I agree underrated & a lovely man. Also George Hurst- a truly inspired conductor at times- but sadly held back by him being a psychopathic & nasty little man (wholly miscast as conducting pedagogue- but this thread is not about teaching but performing). Most present day conductors are merely ‘overrated’ in the sense that the orchestras they conduct play better than they conduct. Also- long gone are the days when such charismatic figures as Bernstein, Karajan Carlos Kleiber ( also Abbado & Jansons to name but two) actually got their own unique sound & character out of an orchestra. Now it all sounds much of a muchness.
That’s exactly my recollection of George Hurst. I really did learn a lot from him in my two encounters, however.
Vernon Handley certainly underrated. I find so many of his recordings to be truly remarkable.
Does Bryden Thomson qualify as English?
Underrated – Downes, Tate, Groves, Del Mar, Lloyd-Jones, (Stokowski)
Overrated – Rattle, Norrington, Harding
Underrated:
Sir Adrian Boult
Sir John Barbirolli
Basil Cameron
Sir Edward Downes
Elgar Howarth
David Parry
Leopold Stokowski
Overrated:
Sir Reginald Goodall
Stoki underrated? He’s the best known of all of them, though his conducting career started in the US.
You are quite wrong about (overrated): Sargent, Beecham and Hogwood.
Overrated: Sir Colin Davis. His Mozart is too heavy, his Berlioz too British, and his Sibelius cycle in Boston is one of the most overrated “classics of the gramophone”. And I will never forget an anything-that-can-go-worng-will Bruckner 9 with the New York Philharmonic.
There used to be one John Barbirolli…
All musicians at whatever level are capable of good and bad performances as judged by “the critics” including us. Surely the important thing is that the music may uplift us whatever the performance? If the conductor achieves this they are to be applauded. Recordings have given us a culture of celebrity rather than appreciation of the hard work needed to build any performance.
Harold Gray with the CBSO in the 50s and 60s produced superb yet underrated Sibelius – music which is now familiar to all.
According to some very very old orchestra members the Concertgebouw under Haitink sounded best when , before Haitink came, they worked two weeks with Colin Davis
Jonathan Nott…a distinguished career on the continent.
Absolutely agree. I travelled to Geneva last week to hear him conduct Messiaen St Francois. Superb and his conducting was a masterclass in clarity, detail, empathy and sheer stamina. Breathtaking.
somewhat left field, but, for different reasons, both under and over rated-Stokowski.
I always thought Barry Wordsworth to be a very good and underrated conductor.
I like Barry- underneath the casual exterior is a fine conductor- pity he’s still not with The Brighton Phil.
Underrated: David Lloyd-Jones. Made some fine recordings for Philips, Naxos, etc.
Barbirolli, where art thou?
Doh! Sorry, Norman, I forgot these were only British conductors on the thread. Please just delete my Falletta post. Thanks …
The most underrated British conductor active today is Anthony Negus. If I could only hear two conductors in Wagner for the rest of my life, they would be Negus and Thielemann.
Barbirolli is on a league of his own, neither underrated nor overrated, special, sometimes disappointing, many times magnificent. The kind of conductor that I much miss these days…
I don’t think anyone could accuse Albert Coates of being “phlegmatic” – the man’s recordings all sound like he had just injected liquid crack into his veins. To be fair, he was a big guy – Toscanini called him “the fat man.”
Nonsensic ,Geraldo Rivera like post.
Agree that Boult, Handley and Leppard are underrated. The rest I would say, belong where they are.
As for the overrated, agree with Beecham and Sargent but whats wrong with Hogwood?
James Loughran was once in vogue, though my impression of him is vague.
Eugene Goossens was generally well rated.
Landon Ronald played the rep safe, but was quite a recording star in the 20s.
Henry Wood?
I saw Wyn Morris’s last concert. Mahler 6. Brilliant, but orchestras didn’t want to hire him.
What a waste of time!
Wynn Morris, Jan Latham-Koenig, Gareth Malone?
They must be overrated indeed since I’ve never heard of them……lol
Overrated: Man United.
Underrated: Man City.
I have performed several Piano Concertos with Sîan Edwards conducting, including the Gershwin Piano Concerto with the Hallé Orchestra, and ‘Rhapsody in Blue’ with the Milton Keynes City Orchestra. There is NO-ONE – and I mean NO-ONE – who conducts Gershwin better than Sîan Edwards. Absolutely no-one. I often describe performing Gershwin’s Piano Concerto with Sîan Edwards conducting the Hallé Orchestra as ‘the most fun I have ever had with my clothes on’ Sîan of course studied in Russia, and she is also one of the very few British conductors to understand that Shostakovich is actually NOT all doom-and-gloom. I performed Shostakovich’s First Piano Concerto with Sîan Edwards conducting, and she found a range of emotion in that work which one rarely hears, even in Russian performances. Sîan Edwards has of course received considerable recognition and respect for her performances, but in a ‘just’ world she would receive a great deal more.
IMO while I respect everyone’s opinions, one cannot dismiss Sir Colin Davis, Sir Charles Mackerras, Sir Thomas Beecham and, especically, Sir Adrian Boult as not something special. In the case of Boult just listen to his recordings of, inter alia, the Brahms serenades.
Vernon Handley certainly deserves greater recognition
Leppard is easily the best conductor the Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra has had. My opinion.
James Loughran? much admired in Brahms
Martyn Brabbins is to my mind extremely underrated. Very good musician with an enormously wide range of musical obsessions. Fearless in solving the problems inherent in many an intractable modern score. He worked after all with Andrew Davis on the truly excellent performance of Harrison Birtwistle’s ‘The Mask of Orpheus’. Many fine performances of new and not so new British pieces over the decades.
I’m rather surprose that Jan L-K is rated at all!
Underrated:
Hilary Davan Wetton
Not by himself!!
One of the most underrated conductors of all time is James Loughran. During his time with the Halle the Free Trade Hall was always packed and his Beethoven and Brahms were unforgettable. I remember a performance of Brahms 3 which was quite breathtaking and in 30 years I have still to hear a better performance in the concert hall or on record.
Overrated: Roger Norrington and John Eliot Gardiner
Odd that nobody’s mentioned Sir Eugene Goossens amongst the underrated Maestros…
No mention of Sir John Barbirolli?
Underrated: George Weldon. Tended to do lots of popular stuff, the Halle Proms, Industrial Concerts series, Royal Albert Hall Sunday evening Tchaikovsky Nights, etc., but could pull some magical performances out of the bag, and lots of premieres, such as Humphrey Searle’s Second Piano Concerto. His Elgar was particularly distinguished. He conducted the very first concert I attended as a schoolboy in Nottingham, including the Enigma Variations – never forgotten. Lots of commercial recordings survive, mostly the more popular repertoire, but immaculately played.
I LOVE Beecham!
Really, anyone who takes on von Suppe, Delibes, the Gounod Faust ballet music, etc. and many other pieces of that ilk, and make them sound like absolute masterworks has to be considered in the top rank.
In addition to Delius and Haydn as previously mentioned, check out his 1932 Don Quixote with the New York Philharmonic and Alfred Wallenstein as the Don. Many renditions are better played, but the humor is unmistakable.
Then there is his 1927 Beethoven 2nd with the LSO. The Columbia producer must have asked him to take it quickly to keep the number of 78 RPM sides down.
And he must’ve responded, “Very well, my dear boy, you want fast, here you go!”
Total fun to listen to!
It might be that Beecham was significantly underrated, in fact, his ability to master the most complex scores was remarkable; though there were times when he didn’t bother, sadly.
No one remembers that Coates had a huge career as a conductor in Russia before he moved back to the UK. Born in Russia to British parents, he at one point studied with Rimsky and later in Leipzig with Niskisch. His Wagner records are truly exceptional.
One of the greatest of British conductors was Sir Frederic Hymen Cowen, also a composer and pianist. He became a regular conductor of the Philharmonic Society and took over as principal conductor after the resignation of Sir Arthur Sullivan. There are a range of recordings from 1903-1930, though mostly as orchestral accompaniement to singers.
A quick search reveals that that really was his middle name. How extraordinary.
So if I understand the thesis of this posting correctly, not a single British conductor is being rated correctly. They are all either underrated or overrated. Somehow, I suspect the opposite is true — that most are rated reasonably accurately, with a few outliers. And most “underrated” conductors are not genuinely underrated (in the sense of being rated more negatively than their talents would warrant), just underknown. Underappreciated in other words.
Sir Dan Godfrey’s time at the Bournemouth Municipal Orchestra and his championing of English music deserves to be better remembered.
Underrated: Meredith Davies
I’ll add Anthony Collins and Sir Charles Groves.
I’m not sure if Boult is underrated or not. For me he remains in that Pantheon of great conductors.
Roderick Brydon.
Totally ignored/forgotten and trained under Celibidache.
Also a wonderful likeable personality.
“never be afraid of a good tune!”
Do you have a list of conductors who are appropriately rated?
…& nobody has mentioned S’Mark!
James Loughran
Another fine Scottish conductor who should be remembered.
Nicholas Cleobury and Howard Williams both shamefully underrated.
I agree Paul on both. I worked with Howard only last summer- fine man & musician.
Variation on a theme: a coming man I very much rate is Adam Hickox.
What about Charles Groves, John Lanchberry, James Loughran, pretty good conductors from the records I heard
Loughran is an excellent shout.
I’m certainly not going to make any negative comments here – it would be wrong for me to do so. However, purely personally, I’d have Vernon Handley, Sir Charles Groves and Sir Edward Downes on a list of those Brits who didn’t have a huge international profile who were underappreciated. However, tomorrow’s list might be different!
I can think of a number of conductors whose abilities have been overlooked, or whose star has risen in a surprising way, purely due to quirks of circumstance. In the case of the former, it might have been that there was an early-career clash with an influential opera director or administrator. Equally, in the case of the latter, there are those that have risen stratospherically due to the promotional or mentoring skills of others, whose actual skills are somewhat lacking.
However, let’s go back to where this all started. Sir Andrew Davis did have an international career, was a great British conductor and deserves so many accolades. Among many concerts and recordings of his that I love, Tippett’s The Mask of Time (whether you like the work or not) is brilliant.
In the main strongly agree. Particularly Boult and Tod Handley who was adored here on Merseyside and not only for English music. On the negative ratings a big yes to Sargent!
Surely in our world how one is rated is rarely to do with ability. It’s all about presentation. If you look good and can talk you will be highly regarded by the media and lauded by the ignorant. Of course its not just in the music world. It applies everywhere. Style over substance. Just remember our greatest peace time PM was Clem Attlee. I recall once watching Boult conduct. Complete control. The slightest twitch of that long stick got a reaction. He didn’t need to jump up and down.
Ah yes, Jan Latham-Koenig, overrated by no musician ever, a truly appalling conductor, an even more appalling person and now an admitted sex offender. Hope he’s never seen again.
A good pianist in his day, to be fair.
Rattle overrated
He’s a seriously nice chap who genuinely loves music. Sometimes that’s more important than anything else.
Underrated
David Atherton
Richard Farnes
Underrated: Martyn Brabbins, Andrew Manze.
I find Boult overrated. His Vaughan Williams cycles are accurate but uninspiring, his Brahms cycle frankly dull.
Wyn Morris I think underrated. His Mahler recordings can easily stand comparison with more recent efforts, and his Beethoven cycle is a worthy member of my virtual music library; excitingly bold and forceful where appropriate.
Underrated and totally forgotten: Hugo Rignold
Tremendous recordings with the LPO of Dvorak New World Symphony (1961) along with DeFalla Three Cornered Hat and El Amor Brujo (1960)…Wish there were more offerings from this totally underrated English conductor…
Sir David Willcocks was a superb conductor. His many performances of the St Matthew Passion may not have used HIPP but they were thrilling nonetheless. “Have lightnings and thunders their fury forgotten?” was visceral!
A silly topic, I fear. The short answer is that all these conductors are or were simultaneously both under and over-rated. It is the importance of the position itself that is unarguably overrated; the conductor’s job is to beat time to assist the musicians in their job of actually playing the music.
Most conductors at the ROH are overrated. No one really has the language skills for that kind of job. A lot of inflated egos!
Only disagree with one call – Thomas Beecham. For some things ( French Romantic, certain operas- Bohème etc, sublime.His recordings of Scheherezade, Mozart Clarinet and Bassoon concertos wonderful. Creating two orchestras and championing Richard Strauss among others. Without the Beecham stories the music world would be a poorer place.
As a professional viola player (played to solo part in the Telemann concerto with Rattle when still a student ) who worked with several on the list. Colin Davis-versatilty , Todd and C Davis- understanding how an orchestra works – ie not time-beaters. Hickox- nice but oh, so predictable. Rattle is a puzzle. I have a good friend in BPO : they liked him for diversifying the repertoire, but knew he was problematical. Mahler 2 here in Amsterdam – best live performance I have ever heard, but he had a bad habit of interfering – not necessary in front of the world’s best orchestra.
When I started in the profession, many players said the best concert was Schubert 9 with Boult on 10 minute’s rehearsal !
Sadly never played with Barbarolli.