NY Philharmonic suspends two key players
NewsThe management of the New York Philharmonic last night issued this blunt note to players in the orchestra: ‘Please note that for the time being, Matthew Muckey and Liang Wang will not be at rehearsals or performances.’
Muckey is the associate principal trumpet who faces accusations of raping another player in July 2010. Wang (pictured) is principal oboe who was named as his accomplice in the alleged offence.
This is a developing crisis for the orchestra. Its president Gary Ginstling, appointed last year, told the NY Times that his hands are tied by a ‘binding aribitration’ that required the orchestra to readmit both players in April 2020 after they had been fired for the alleged offence – a dismissal supported by a judge-led investigation. Suspension was his only option.
But Ginstling cannot just take them off the roster temporarily and hope the issue will go away. Feelings are riding high among New York musicians. Their union, Local 802, which backed the two men, has changed its tune. A new president, Sara Cutler, elected last year, said: ‘As a woman, a musician and a new union president, I am horrified by what was in the story and we are committing the full resources of Local 802 to erase the culture of complicity that has raged at the N.Y. Philharmonic for too long.’
UPDATE: NY Phil crisis deepens
God´s mills grind slowly, but steadily.
God’s mills are Model 800BCE. I expect Samson is still there going in circles.
Anyone reading about the Union’s part in this farce has one good very good reason to walk away from them for good. They are little more than mob mercenaries, acting regardless of merit or morality.
Unions represent women as well as men.
If unions are mercenaries, then let them be mercenaries for women’s rights now.
10 years ago, the union president was a man, the orchestra was controlled by male players, the arbitrator was a man, they all shared the same male ethos that boys will be boys and that what happens in Vail stays in Vail and that a man raping a woman is hard to prove.
Today, the union president is a woman, the orchestra overwhelmingly believes Cara, that proof of rape is not hard if you apply the correct legal standard of consent, and draw all the correct inferences from Muckey refusing to testify by taking the Fifth against self-incrimination.
Unions represent the ethos of the members. That ethos has evolved significantly in 10 years.
What? It was the Union led arbitration that sought to raise the bar for evidence after judgment had already been passed in order reinstate these two. So much for women’s rights.
That’s a very extreme accusation! “A mob of mercenaries?” – Doesn’t even make sense. I’m a 35 year member of 802. And when I show up to work, I’m glad I have protections and won’t be taken advantage of. I’ve experienced non union gigs where we were forced to play longer rehearsals and performances for no extra compensation. -And nothing we could do about it. It’s not perfect, but it’s an organization that can help protect workers.
You might be surprised to hear this Kyle, but out here in the real world unpaid overtime is the norm, especially among salaried professional staff earning the kind NY Philharmonic musicians earn. They also don’t receive “tenure” after a couple of years. The current model sounds great for musicians, but its done nothing for the quality of the orchestra.
A) playing music for money is living in the “real world.”
B) tenure isn’t in every job, but it certainly exists in other professions besides music. It’s not tenure’s fault this person wasn’t held accountable.
C) just because your crappy job forces you to work unpaid ot and cons you out of legal benefits doesn’t mean mine should (or frankly yours either).
So you should have protections and not be taken advantage of by a long rehearsal, but a woman has to put up with being raped?
The AFM is always one step behind and a quart low.
Never pro-active and always reactive.
If all the US orchestras were to withdraw and run themselves (ICSOM without the AFM), the AFM would wither and collapse.
By necessity, they need to pander to the Orchestra Committees of these orchestras.
Hopefully the orchestras will figure this out and dump the AFM.
This is an affront to due process and confidence in any sort of legal or quasi-legal arbitration.
THE CASE WAS CLOSED!
The arbitrator was agreed as BINDING.
This is a which hunt. Or perhaps a D*ck hunt. Everyone who knows those guys knows that they are a couple of arrogant pieces of crap. BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN THEY RAPED ANYONE.
If there is no faith in binding arbitration then we should have no faith in the management not the ruling.
If Rape is a matter of civil dispute, sure Arbitration decision holds. But, if Rape is a crime and statue of limitations have not run out, the matter can be sorted out by the law enforcement and the court.
Apparently there was no criminal charges!
“were”…
The statute of limitations has run out in Colorado, where charges would be filed.
The statute of limitations has not run out in Colorad. 20 years when DNA evidence is involved, which it is. The District Attorney at the time declined to prosecute despite there being proof for a case.
The DNA only proves there was sex. It does not prove rape. The hair sample, unfortunately, does not provide evidence, either, because in this case, according to The Article, she tested her hair 7 months after the event. Not only is that considered too late for accurate lab results, it doesn’t establish who gave her GHB, nor when.
This study says you cant get accurate results on hair samples for GHB more than 5 months later: https://analyticalsciencejournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/dta.3423
Now, if there is any evidence that either of the accused had EVER obtained GHB, then there might be enough circumstantial evidence to bring charges. GHB is used legally in drugs treating alcohol or opiate withdrawal, and also for treatment of insomnia and narcolepsy, so if one of those men were ever prescribed it, that would help build a case. But if Ms. Kizer had ever been prescribed it, that would be a whole new ball game.
What it comes down to is this: without clear evidence of the accused being anything more than disgusting assholes (which is not breaking any laws ), we’re left with some people deciding that vigilante justice is acceptable in he said/she said situations.
That’s incredibly scary. Sure, it may seem fine if they’re going after total jerks who may very well have committed the crimes they’re accused of. But what happens next time, when the vigilantes go after someone who never did anything wrong, but is hated by someone claiming to be a victim?
Oh for goodness sakes- there is evidence of sex. Please tell me under what circumstances a woman agrees to sex while wearing a tampon?
Hopefully not the same Colorado DA who refused to charge the Ramseys for their daughter’s death despite the recommendation of the grand jury.
The statute of limitations in Colorado is 20 years, so no, they are still within that window.
Colorado Criminal Code CRS 18-3-402
Best not to make declarations of fact without taking 30 seconds to do a simple Google search.
Conviction rates for r**e are scandalously low.
These guys have clearly got away with in it in law with something very serious. They were fired for it but reinstated on technicalities with Union help. That doesn’t mean they should live their lives without their world judging them. If they don’t like that and are so sure if their innocence, they can sue anyone. If not, they’ll just have to put up with society’s repulsion of them.
If it makes you feel better, you can observe the closure of the case.
Many of us believe a heinous crime occurred and will not blindly accept the arbitration decision of an inept clown.
Guess what, I “believe” in Santa & the Boogey man.
Itsjtime, due process is being honored here. That’s why these two still have their titles and salary per the arbitrator’s decision. They are simply getting paid to not do their jobs. Something will give eventually and they will probably reach very high-dollar settlements with the NY Phil and leave. Or perhaps there will be years more of litigation.
Having read the New York Magazine article, I find the alleged victims’ telling of the events far more persuasive than that of the two alleged perpetrators. If you are so ready to concede they are “arrogant pieces of crap,” is it impossible to believe they are also predators?
So, lemme guess…. Liang’s sock puppet account?
The case has NOT closed, the statutes of limitations have not expired in Colorado, the right district attorney can re-open the case and present to a grand jury.
I believe you’re not correct about Colorado law: https://www.shouselaw.com/co/defense/laws/statute-of-limitations/
It’s closed in the sense that the Philharmonic had to restore them to their positions and to pay them. It doesn’t foreclose the possibility of a criminal case and it probably doesn’t oblige the orchestra to actually let them play, so long as they have their positions and get paid.
But seriously, even Wang and Muckey are probably astute enough to realize that at the moment it’s kind of untenable for both other members and the audience for them to be on stage.
Oh fuck you, you pig!
This is a reason why unions should be abolished…..
Which witch is which in this scenario?
Rape is a serious felony, NY Phil under previous administration should have handled this as a crime, just like murder, a matter belongs to the jurisdiction of law enforcement, instead of private dispute. Union was also wrong to insist this to be handled through the civil arbitration. The fact that both parties didn’t do the right thing initially shows the lack of respect to the morality and women’s dignity in those who were in charge. The error should and can be corrected.
Law enforcement/district attorney declined to prosecute. So, if NY Phil left it to “the jurisdiction of law enforcement,” that would have assured zero consequences. Which begs the larger controversial question–Should crimes be investigated and punished in the civil administrative context of internal employment/workplace complaints (or the civil administrative context of internal school disciplinary procedures, as in the case of Title IX sexual misconduct grievances)?
In the UK, at least, I believe that an employer is at liberty to initiate disciplinary proceedings once police and criminal investigations are completed. I would imagine that that is what happened back in 2010, even if the outcome of the disciplinary proceedings is not widely seen as unsatisfactory.
Unfortunately, it appears that NYP management did nothing in 2010 to investigate or even protect Kizer from further contact with her alleged assailant. Malpractice of the highest order.
There is an unintentional double negative in the previous post, which inverts its meaning. Please read ‘widely seen as unsatisfactory’.
It would be interested to find out if the decision by an authority not to file charges had any external influence.
I would be shocked if the NY Philharmonic had any influence over a DA in Colorado. It’s a big deal in US classical music, but otherwise… not. The reaction would be more like extreme indifference, which is also what the alleged victim experienced.
When the NYP personnel manager was told what happened by the victim, law enforcement was immediately informed by the physician he called in to help her.
But, the question was did DA decide not to file criminal complaint because it involves NY Phil players?
The problem is that NY Phil admin violated union policies by initially firing M and W when they had not even been charged with a crime, let alone convicted of one.
The union was correct in insisting on binding independent arbitration. We don’t want managements to fire musicians based just on accusation alone.
Now, I’m not saying that M and W are not guilty. Based on what I read in The Article, it sure looks likely that they ARE guilty, but NY Phil admin shot themselves in the foot by firing M and W without getting all their ducks in a row.
If NY Phil had done things right, there would have been an immediate and thorough police investigation, including the previous allegation mentioned in The Article.
It does seem odd that The Article says that four people “familiar with the matter” said that CK “signed an NDA before accepting a six-figure settlement and leaving the orchestra.” Which 4 people? Why were they familiar with the matter?
How could 4 people be “familiar with the matter,” yet not themselves be bound by the NDA? That’s just weird. So is the fact that there was a settlement (if that is indeed fact). If CK was denied tenure through the normal contractual protocol, involving a vote from a committee (from which M was removed), then why would the orchestra feel a need to offer a 6-figure settlement? Or any settlement? That’s not typical. Settlements are not offered when tenure is denied.
Also, it really nags at me that The Article didn’t get into WHY the hair follicle test for GHB did not meet the standard for litigation. The DA’s office was correct. CK didn’t ask for a hair follicle test until 7 months after the event, which is too late to be considered accurate. GHB wasn’t in the bloodwork done at the hospital because they were already past the window where enough GHB could have been found in the blood.
And I didn’t know this until I looked it up, but apparently all mammals produce GHB. So it’s a little suss that The Article says that a six-centimeter hair sample was “positive for the presence of GHB.” How much GHB, and was it a higher concentration than newer hair (closer to the scalp)? Those tests are supposed to show a timing window for chemical exposure. Did they?
NY Phil management continues to be obtusely naive.
Nothing in law is “binding” — if you litigate the shit out of it with the right lawyers and the right resources for long enough and keep appealing high enough — not 50 years of “binding” precedent for abortion, not 25 years of “binding” precedent for affirmative action, you can and you will get things overturned, if you keep fighting until you get the right set of judges in front of you willing to adopt your interpretation of the law.
Yes, it will cost money and it will take time, but if you believe in your cause, you will do it.
I can’t imagine that if Borda or Ginstling had to go to work everyday with 2 executive vice-presidents who were previously fired for rape, had to share with them the same executive suite, the same executive bathroom, required to travel sharing the same plane and the same hotel, required to socialize and drinking with them at the same events with board members and donors, etc, that Borda and Ginstling would not have found a way to get rid of those 2 hypothetical predatory executive vice-presidents.
But when it comes to the women of the orchestra, oh, no, our hands are tied, we are bound by a non-judge arbitrator in a non-judicial arbitration.
First of all, Deborah Borda has left the Philharmonic. She did the right thing back in 2018 by firing them. And Gary Ginstling is new; he has inherited this mess, so cut him some slack. Previous decisions/actions have tied his hands. I’m sure the management are talking with their lawyers and the musicians’ committee and there’s agreement that these guys can’t stay in the orchestra; the question is how to get rid of them. Most likely it involves paying them to go away. Stay tuned.
Despite Ginstling’s proclaimed accomplishments and degrees, unless he fires the two immediately without 802 standing in his way, which will require real finess, he’s done.
That’s what should have happened in the first place – a substantial payout (however unjust that might have seemed) followed by a permanent parting of ways. Given the circumstances, reinstating them was madness.
Not so sure of that. It depends on union rules and their contracts but NY is an At-Will state and being the cause for continued disruption and lower donations and ticket sales should be reason enough. I would be very surprised if that was not in their contracts.
Exactly, when your adversary knows that you have a greater will and greater resources to fight and appeal until your last dying breath, they will settle with you, they will gladly negotiate an out.
I think it’s sick that it took the NYP 8 years to suspend them in 2018. It’s sick that the 2 ladies were not given tenure which was obviously because of this story. It’s sick that the musicians union got them back in and supported them.
On the same token I think it’s sick that OJ Simpson that obviously murdered two people managed to live out of jail because of lawyers and court rules. Life sucks this way.
Two things I want to know
Do the two musicians get paid while suspended?
Was there ever a talk about some compensation to the victim and her friend for wrongfully being denied tenure?
The two women were paid off to leave with NDAs. Their careers were sidelined. Truly a sad state of affairs.
Thankfully, they were not sidelined. One is now a member of the St Louis Symphony, and the other is a regular sub there; both travel frequently to play with major orchestras across the country. Sure, it’s not the New York Philharmonic- rather, it seems better than that.
Actually,there are many evenings when the SLSO plays better than the NYPO.
Hopefully the women are doing well. However, no compensation can negate the guilt of the perps. We have a justice system.
The answer to your last question is that the victim signed a non-disclosure agreement. Most of us infer that she received compensation for doing so.
Sammy, OJ might not have committed those murders. But if his son did, OJ took and deflected the heat to protect his boy. This is starting to emerge now that OJ’s died. Look up William Dear. There’s a piece from 2001 in the Dallas Observer and more from a few days ago, on distractify.com.
Thank you for writing this comment. I’ve been afraid of the truth of what you wrote since that whole awful mess went down.
14 years later….sick
Unions are a problem in the US. Local 802 does more bad than good these days and are killing the institutions whose musicians they represent. The stink at the New York Philharmonic will linger for a long time unless Dudamel is allowed to make wholesale changes to the orchestra and public enough for the ticket buyers to understand that the orchestra is no longer a group of brats.
What a mess.
People keep mentioning that these 2 perps should get paid by the NYPO to walk away. Why?
They need to be held accountable in a court of law and either keep their job by way of Due Process or get fired due to criminal behavior and pay the penalty that the court mandates.
The NYPO should NOT pay off these perps to go away. That only condones their actions.
Yes, and there are other reasons they could be justly fired.
Whatever the legal status of the complaint, the arbitration result has no binding effect on anyone’s decision to attend philharmonic concerts or send the orchestra money. I love classical music and grew up with NYPhil concerts, but I have no plans to attend or support until this is remedied.
I am sure this comment will be met with cries of censorship. But the philharmonic at the end of the day is selling tickets for a high price, and it’s on the band to earn the fee. Listeners have the right to decide what they hear, and credible allegations like those in the article are relevant to that decision. Why would I pay a hundred dollars to see the trumpet section on 65th street with an obvious residue of sexism when there is another trumpet section on 57th (or on PBS or WQXR or streaming or vinyl etc.) that didn’t tolerate this stuff?
On hearing an orchestra play, can you judge by sound which of them are offenders and which are not?
It’s a very sad situation but I am still not entirely sure WHAT Liang Wang did in this case? There’s no proof that he put any drug in that glass of wine?
He gave Kizer the drugged wine, according to the article.
I completely agree with this.
Is it official that they were suspended? How do we know they didnt request time off as soon as The Article hit print?
They presumably haven’t seen suspended, because that normally indicates that some disciplinary action is to be taken. They are simply being kept out of the spotlight until they and the orchestra hope that the controversy dies down, because their presence on stage would be a distraction. Where this might leave Liang Wang’s concerto performances in 3 weeks time, I don’t know.
1) The Union will protect its own blindly. I’ve seen a case where they supported a musician who threatened the life of a colleague.
2) Where was Debby Borda in all of this? The current new administration can hardly be blamed.
3) There are 40+ women in the NYP including several who have high-profile names and positions. Where have they been? Are they really claiming they would have all been fired if they’d spoken out?
You are correct about the AFM. If it involves a high profile musician they will spend money to fight without any moral compass. But reforming the AFM is near impossible. The leaders are entrenched and want the status quo.
Deb Borda did fire these musicians so it’s not on her. It’s on the leadership of Local 802 that fought to reinstate them.
The funny thing is the AFM is supposedly all about #MeToo these days but it’s all words. No actions.
Time to sweep out the scum in the AFM leadership ranks and get new people in that are true leaders.
It was under Borda that the two were fired. She did the right thing.
Since they cannot fire them (again), they suspend them with pay.
How can I get a union job?
Wow, sandbagged by their own union. Regardless whether these guys are guilty, and they probably are, they should still be entitled to representation by their won union, otherwise what are they paying dues for? But I guess in Local 802 under Sara Cutler, since she’s a woman musician (wtf?), i.e. she has a vagina, she’s not necessarily going to fight for due process for you. For the record, based on what I know, it’s probably a shame these guys won their appeal….but they did. And I don’t know how the NYP can suspend them for an issue that’s already been litigated. If they win this round, will they suspend them again in a few years if someone writes something about this story on the internet?
Just because you pay dues doesn’t obligate the union to represent you in all matters. Going to arbitration is not cheap, and the union is within its rights to crease representing members in matters for even the simple reason that it thinks your case is a money loser.
You claim that they’re not obligated to take every case to arbitration but you just pulled that out of your butt. Have you read their CBA or that local’s bylaws? But even if they aren’t, are they at least obligated to provide them with representation to make sure the process is fair and that their due process isn’t violated? Of course. And not only have they failed to do that but their cowardly, virtue signaling union president has adjudicated them guilty in the press. Granted, I think they’re probably guilty and should have been kicked out but I still think they deserve representation.
It’s great to know raping someone will bear zero consequences.
Incredibly scary that two fundamental core tenants of American society, freedom of speech and innocence until proven guilty, are no popular amongst the majority of Americans. Instead we “believe all women” and want to the government to censor “misinformation.” The historical precedent for abandoning these principles is grave.
Completely agree. It’s alarming, but then again….can’t say I’m surprised, with the way corporate media has altered the narrative so much over the last 8 years. Cancel culture is the new witch-hunt, and these people are foaming at the mouth for it.
That’s simply a specious argument.
“Proof beyond a reasonable doubt” is only applied in criminal matters.
With civil matters, the standard is lower: a preponderance of the evidence.
This is why it’s easier to win wrongful death civil lawsuits against alleged murders than convict them in court.
When employers make decisions about terminating employees, they operate under the preponderance of the evidence standard. That’s what the NYP did based an investigation.
Did the US ever hear of the term due process?
Disgusting!
The mob taking the role of courts is really a scary and most worrying sign of our times.
Without DNA evidence and prosecution, this will simply be another spin on the carousel. The orchestra’s decision to suspend them may indicate that there is imminent prosecution…we’ll see