No US conductors, no women, in Carnegie Hall season
NewsCarnegie Hall’s season launch last week was a rickety affair, with much of the limelight stolen by a sabotage announcement from Lincoln Center.
Now we’ve had time to examine the offering in detail, three black holes emerge.
Not one American conductor has been engaged*.
There is only one woman conductor, Mei-Ann Chen, in the entire portfolio of Carnegie Hall presentations, and that in a peripheral concert without any promotion of her presence.
There is also a dearth of American music – only three works in 12 months, as far as we can ascertain.
These are major omissions, as if Carnegie Hall has quit the American continent and the 21st century. Coincidence, negligence, or calculated strategy – which one?
And can Lincoln Center do better under new leadership?
*UPDATE: We have since found Tito Munoz, performing unpromoted with the American Composers Orchestra.
How does one woman conductor become “no women” conductors?
In the current PC climate, who gives a ****?
Clive Gillinson does not view either Carnegie Hall or New York City as “of America”, for he views America as a cultural backwater. Rather, he views Carnegie/NYC as being “international”, just as London, Paris, Vienna, Amsterdam and Berlin are “international”. The number of American orchestras appearing at Carnegie Hall annually dropped precipitously after he came, by his stated design. He feels Carnegie Hall has no more obligation to America than most elite European presenters like the Lucerne Festival, Salzburg, and the BBC Proms, for example. It is their programming that he seeks to emulate, if not lead by his example.
you are exactly right and, regarding America, so is Clive G.
The proportion of US orchestras seems to be about the same it has been for the past 20-odd years that I have been going to Carnegie off and on. The usual residencies of Philly, Met, Boston, Cleveland, Chicago, with a few others tossed in. Pretty normal. Keep in mind that a few US orchestras are in the midst of looking for new music directors, so they don’t have the same promotional pull they might have in other seasons.
mk, you have proved my point. You offer the past twenty years as a sample, and Clive took over at Carnegie nineteen years ago. The so-called “Big Five” orchestras you mention are viewed by Clive as “international orchestras” because they tour internationally and appear at Lucerne, the Proms, and those other international venues Clive values. But before Clive took over one annually saw the orchestras of Cincinnati, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Atlanta, and like cities at Carnegie Hall. Clive put an end to that quickly and intentionally, as was confirmed to me by his top programming person at the time.
anyhow time to step down – there was enough of Clive – move on and get a fresh wind
Wrong. Many many women, tons of American music, numerous minorities- just perhaps not so much in the orchestral offerings which is just a part of their season. And the orchestras choose their conductors, not Carnegie. C’mon SlippedDisc, do better!
But Carnegie implicitly gives its stamp of approval to the orchestras and soloists that it books. If it wants to make a statement about the future, it would stop booking the Vienna Philharmonic and its crotchety old boy’s club. It might instead try the Baltimore Symphony led by Johnathan Heyward, Atlanta Symphony, led by Nathalie Stutzmann or San Diego, led by Rafael Payare, to name three examples of more forward-thinking institutions.
People like you bring the arts down. Vienna Phil is the best orchestra in the world. (and their age structure seems alright by the looks of it).
You want political appointments, comrade?
‘Forward thinking’!!! The main motto of the Chinese Culture Revolution. Also Lenin was big on that.
You know what I think is forward? The f*****g best orchestra playing the best interpretations in the world, inspiring me.
I’d bet that 95% of the public couldn’t hear the difference between the Vienna Phil and San Diego or Atlanta Symphonies. For the 5% who do, they can always stay home and listen to recordings.
However, there is an audience that *might* attend an orchestra concert if they felt like that institution was being equitable in its hiring practices and that its members looked more like society as a whole (and studies show as much – see the League of American Orchestras’ website for more).
You also undercut your argument with the silly analogies to communism or whatever.
Carl, Do you really believe there is an audience that would decide to go to a concert on the basis of equitable hiring practices and the orchestra looking like society as a whole ?
If that’s what I was looking for I’d go to watch the local non-auditioning community orchestra or singing at my local football match, or down the pub. Or even just stare at a bus queue for free.
Doh. I go to watch exceptional people play to the highest standards.
Well said.
Absolutely. People want to see people on stage that look like themselves. It’s human nature. I’m guessing you’re a white male (like most of the right-wing readers on this site) and have no experience trying see things through another person’s point of view.
I’m guessing you’re a white male who feels the need to condescend to people of color in order to feel better about yourself.
“However, there is an audience that *might* attend an orchestra concert if they felt like that institution was being equitable in its hiring practices and that its members looked more like society as a whole (and studies show as much – see the League of American Orchestras’ website for more).”
Do you really believe this BS or does your paycheck depend on you acting like you believe it? I’m guessing the latter.
Carnegie has to sell tickets. And New York is not nearly as sophisticated an audience as people like to think (the Philharmonic’s audience is the type that walks out on pieces like Nielsen 4, finding it “too modern”). U.S. orchestras outside the Big 5+LA/SF tend not to sell well. And the Montreal Symphony in the Dutoit era, but that’s been a while. You’re absolutely right that Baltimore, Atlanta, and San Diego (and many others) are outstanding orchestras but Carnegie putting them on their program doesn’t by itself sell tickets.
If I switch my radio on in Germany then I listen to 80% anglo-sung songs in pop music. If I look in the Music Universities more than the half of students and stuff comes around the globe, similar in orchestras and operas. If I have a look in the programs of orchestras and operas in Germany I find not only German but also British and US and not so often South-American compositions but also from Italy, Tschechien, Russia, Ukraine, Scandinavia, France and also on big stages sometimes not so often but existing music from Japan, Korea, Taiwan and China and in the contemporary sector you have even a hand of Australian names as composers and artists. Where is the problem? I have the impression the US feels dying if there would be the German/European global mixed music culture. To much Trumpism, to much “we” in the US classical & contemporary music audience?? Yes, in Germany we fight still for more women as conductors and composers… but it becomes step by step really better.
Enough with the TDS for everything
but the best women conductors are Finnish and what Germany produces on stage is an absolute disaster and mostly responsible for the overall exodus as idiots overseas like at the MET has proven the results
What makes Lincoln Center’s announcement “sabotage?”
they should’ve hired Cate Blanchett.
Yannick is overexposed
I get some funny thoughts about this comment
Sally
When Furtwangler died a major conductor to another said” Now who is going to conduct the EROICA”. We want the best man , woman, or any semblance of either. Walter, Klemperer, Bernstein, von Karajan, Svetlanov, Kondrashin, Mitropous, …. The list goes on with NO WOMEN. They must prove themselves worthy of Bruno Walter’s Brahms’ Second Ssymphony. None on this planet have done so. They are tokens. Marin Alsop is OK BUT NO LEONARD BERNSTEIN.
When Furtwaengler died, Klemperer said: ‘Now I raise my fees’
His first recording of the Eroica is certainly as good as any by Furtwängler. I have read somewhere that Karajan once travelled to London just for a concert where Klemperer conducted it.
Proof that the new SD commenting policy might ban attacks but it obviously doesn’t exclude sexist remarks such as this and others on this page.
Says who?
So you’ve dug skin deep into the issue — you said the list contains no women, let us examine why. Women have been highly discouraged from entering the environment, building their resumes, having access to performing opportunities, and have been cheated of respect for as long as Western classical music has existed. Under these conditions, who in their right mind would expect there to be just as many women conductors as there have been men conductors? Women are just barely being allowed in the field at this point and we cannot compare names when men have hundreds of years more of increased access and privilege. Please think logically and then you may be able to come to a valuable conclusion to share with the class.
Rubbish. Just being a woman almost guarantees you a decent leg up into the conducting business these days, regardless of whether you’re any good or not. I look to the likes of Sîan Edwards, Hazel Vivian (later Victor Morris), Jane Glover, Simone Young and Anne Manson as female conductor role models – women who had to fight in order to make it on the podium – rather than the largely talentless bandwaggoners we’ve been saddled with these last ten years or so.
she is poor indeed but Susanne Mälkki is fabulous and by far the best – the German Joan’s Mallwitz totally overrated and only hyped by the German press like the pianist Igor Levit (such poor interpretations) – Simone Young made it to Bayreuth this year next to Madame Stutzman
Still Mälkki is the by far the best in my opinion
My God, is everything measured by quotas? Its this mindset that has all but killed classical music.
The Carnegie season is brilliant and if you survey the entire program and dynamic curve season to season you will discover it programs on the highest classical level and meets a good standard even if you apply an ‘edi’ standard.
Does Eric Korngold count as an American? His Violin Concerto is performed on 12 Feb. 2024 with the National Symphony. How about Black History Month Celebration (Feb. 13)? How about Gregory Porter? (2/16) Or, Bluegrass (2/18)? Or, Third Coast Percussion and Roomfull of Teeth? (1/25) By the way, Brad Wells is an American conductor.
Only 2 months covered, no need to go on.
I switched off after Korngold.
Why does Carnegie Hall need to have more women conductors?
I for one am sick and tired of having
all of this “woke” nonsense being forced on us. I have never in my life heard a female conductor who could conduct anywhere near as well as a male conductor.
I’m deeply offended by this comment. And I’m not even a musician. We simply don’t get the chance to develop!
Sally
Norman’s new rules for comments say “no racism”. But do we assume from Will’s comment above that blatant misogyny and sexism is still ok?
You do it, then, Will. With your predisposed maleness.
For goodness sake. I don’t care if conductors are male or female or whatever they may identify as. They are there to conduct music, not to have sex. Their gender doesn’t matter. Nor their blood group. Nor their star sign.
Same for just about every other profession.
JoAnn Falletta is fully the equal any conductor and superior to the likes of YN-S.
The program has plenty of wonderful music and great performers. I look forward to going back (I don’t live in NY).
Carnegie used to present many more U.S. orchestras. This year, it was strictly the “Big Five” plus National. My orchestra, the St. Louis Symphony, used to play two programs annually. Those days are long gone, and we’ve been told there is no room at the inn. Sad.
Very sad, I used to look forward to hearing so-called “not Big 5” orchestras like yours. We sometimes got also the excellent Detroit Symphony, Pittsburgh Symphony, Houston Symphony and occasionally the Buffalo Phil or even Rochester orchestra. I remember a sensational concert Litton gave with the Dallas Symphony around 1990. It’s a pity they gave you that excuse, there are available evenings, but of course it costs a lot to come to NY.
On one hand, I think it’s great that European orchestras are touring the United States relatively regularly, not just to Carnegie, even if it’s to only a few cities. But so many American orchestras that aren’t Chicago, Cleveland, Philadelphia, et al. deserve to be heard at Carnegie, even with safe programs. I often say that, representing whole nations, only German orchestras surpass American.
Could it be that male conductors did better in blind auditions?
They stopped doing blind auditions because the candidates could not see where the players sat.
I wish they would bring back the Spring for Music Festival that brought more regional US orchestras with unique programming that would not normally be venturing to NYC to perform. It was not a Carnegie presentation but something very worthwhile.
Spring For Mysic was simply a money maker for the producers. They stopped after making 6 figures a year each. Audiences were mostly very modest and the performances were B-minus at best.
I was born in Queens, NY, and, barring any unforeseen circumstances, I do plan on fulfilling my engagement with the American Composers Orchestra next season.
Also, according to Carnegie’s press release:
Anthony Parnther is leading the Gateways Festival Orchestra.
Marin Alsop and Teddy Abrams are leading NYO and NYO2 respectively.
I hope I didn’t miss anyone else.
There two anonymous comments here obviously insulting to women:
“I have never in my life heard a female conductor who could conduct anywhere near as well as a male conductor.”
“They must prove themselves worthy of Bruno Walter’s Brahms’ Second Ssymphony. None on this planet have done so. They are tokens.”
The new restrictions are about anonymous abuse of *individuals* (i.e. “another person” as the rule says.) If I understand correctly, this means insulting and demeaning women as a group is still allowed and which seems to be a psychological need for some of the SD readers. Without a fairly steady stream of such remarks, the character of the SD comments section would change considerably.
We are not censors. Readers are permitted to hold opinions that are not necessarily yours or mine.
Yes, I know.
But Norman you need to explain why you are allowing misogyny and sexism but not racism. There is a value judgment going on there, and it’s very problematic. Why not just be clear about it and say “racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-semitism, and and other similar forms of abuse will not be tolerated in the comments section.” That would be a huge step forward.
If a commenter believes that nobody, including women, has ever matched Walter’s Brahms 2nd how is that not to be allowed? Banning different opinions is a step forward, alright. A step forward into fascism.
I disagree with his statement but I wouldn’t ban it.
That comment was specifically about women not matching Walter: “Walter, Klemperer, Bernstein, von Karajan, Svetlanov, Kondrashin, Mitropous [sic], …. The list goes on with NO WOMEN. They must prove themselves worthy of Bruno Walter’s Brahms’ Second Symphony. None on this planet have done so. They are tokens. Marin Alsop is OK but NO LEONARD BERNSTEIN.”
I wouldn’t ban the statement either; it is important that misogyny can rear its ugly head and be recognized for what it is.
In the two gratuitous comments I quote, the contempt for women is obvious. And yet they remain because transparently dog-whistled misogyny is allowed, probably because decoding the messages to the extent one should block them runs into tricky ground, is labor intensive, and would reduce the a segment of the readership the blog uses as part of its commercial venture. So this form of coded misogyny will likely remain a regular part of the readers comments on this site. We also see that a contentious atmosphere is often provoked, a common part of journalism, and that it leads to abusive statements also about individuals.
Also in disagreement, once you have heard the very hard to find Brahms 2 recording by Guido Cantelli. And isn’t that the problem really, when proclamations are solely based on what you know?
I didn’t realize Carnegie Hall had quotas they had to meet.
I have the season brochure in front of me as i type. Mitsuko Uchida will be directing the Mahler Chamber Orchestra from the piano, in addition to her other chamber music appearances, Anthony Parnther will be conducting the Gateways Orchestra, Bernard Labadie will be conducting 2 performances with the Orchestra of St. Lukes (Labadie is Canadian, if that counts), Tito Munoz will be conducting the American Composers Orchestra, and the chamber and miscellaneous offering are split about 50/50 between men and women, with many American artist.
Are there female and/or American conductors leading major orchestras at the moment that would fit into the season? Only if you ask the music directors to step aside for the Carnegie Hall concerts. Carnegie has had a number or concerts that fit this qualification in recent years, such as Birmingham and the Met Orchestra with Grazinyte-Tylas, the San Paulo Orchestra with Marin Alsop, the New York Philharmonic and Helsinki Philharmonic with Suzanna Malkki, the San Francisco Symphony with Tilson Thomas, the Lviv Philharmonic with Kuchar, and undoubtedly a few others that I missed.
If we don’t choose conductors based on nationality or gender, how the heck are we supposed to choose them — on talent?
That is manifestly not happening……………
I believe there is a big misunderstanding in the following quoted statement “Carnegie Hall’s season launch last week was a rickety affair, with much of the limelight stolen by a sabotage announcement from Lincoln Center.”
Carnegie Hall and Lincoln Center (here meaning chiefly the NYPO) do not compete, they are complementary.
As someone who goes to Carnegie a lot (30+ times a season) and to the NYPO a fair bit (10+) and the Met (8+) and even occasionally NYC ballet (also at Lincoln Center) as well as other things in NY, I can always go to what I want to hear. I do buy subscriptions sometimes (usually a few performances in each) and if for example I find that say the Cleveland Orchestra is at Carnegie Hall on a night I had bought a ticket for the Met or the NYPO it’s easy to switch those to another date as the NYPO plays each program several times from a Thursday to sometimes the following Tuesday. There is no competition, it is a matter of providing MORE CHOICE in a metro area of 50 million people (the population of England!). Carnegie and Geffen are usually full or almost full (not always true for the met as SD regularly reports). It would have been nice to see more American works, agreed, more American conductors for sure (Slatkin, Litton – he’s at the ballet but is disgracefully underrated here) but US orchestras have “Foreign” music directors for the same reason Americans think BMWs are better than cars made domestically (sometimes yes, sometimes no) – “European = better”. A sad mentality. As for women I would like to see more but often we do – Xian Zhang is doing all the Butterflys at the Met this season, we’ve had Speranza Scapucci (I really rate her) and Simone Young did a great Rosenkavalier recently (with a genuine Viennese lilt in the waltzes!!). We’ve had Mirga with the CBSO recently, this season Karina Cannelakis is doing the Poem of Ecstasy at the NYPO. Marin Alsop guested at the NYPO last year. I would be happy to see more women conductors and over time I think we will see more.
So ‘conductor’ had a subset called ‘female conductor’? And then how about ‘cis female conductor’? And then ‘female identifying conductor of mixed native ancestry’.
Keep cataloguing people and you’ll never be satisfied.
There are conductors and conductresses. Is that better?
Carnegie is in the business of survival. So long as patrons buy tickets, Carnegie should program whomever it wants.
“Alondra conducts Bruckner 6, 7, 8” in one afternoon. Get your ticket before sold out!
Needs more Howard Hanson, George Chadwick, Charles Ives, John Adams, Roy Harris, William Schuman, etc.
Agreed.
Here’s a gripe I have:
The great Czech Philharmonic is playing three concerts, which is wonderful. But Carnegie apparently doesn’t think this legendary orchestra performing its signature work – Smetana’s Ma Vlast – is enough to fill the hall. So instead they have Yo-Yo Ma playing the Dvorak Concerto with “selections from Ma Vlast” on the second half. Of course hearing Yo-Yo Ma is always a great thing, but a performance of the complete Ma Vlast is a rare occurrence in the United States, even though it’s hardly going to unsettle any listener. A real missed opportunity.
On another program Gil Shaham is playing the Dvorak Violin Concerto. He’s a wonderful player, of course, but little if any history of playing with the Czech Philharmonic (maybe he will next season ahead of this performance). How much more bold and refreshing had they featured either former concertmaster Josef Spacek (now a regular guest at home, and an increasingly prominent soloist) or one of their phenomenal current CMs – Jiri Vodicka or Jan Mracek.
It would be nice if Carnegie would not just present the music, but also the way these orchestras do business at home.
Completely agree about the complete Ma Vlast. Nothing beats the CPO in that. Don’t agree about Gil Shaham but that’s because he’s my favorite violinist and he does play all over the world. I well remember a Bruch #1 in Amsterdam, his sound in that hall was absolutely extraordinary.
I am all for it if it helps to restore the lofty artistic standards. I’m a member of ‘underpresented minority’ and do not subscribe to the woke train.
it is laughable what the anglosphere has done to classical music with all the blue hair awake pc nonsense. The us et al, a profoundly sick and dying society
Outrageous management decisions! It’s a myth to think that American women are incapable musicians or that they can’t sell tickets in the most iconic concert hall in the country. The hall was a gift to the American people that must be cherished in the 21st. Century and on.
Carnegie Hall contracts the orchestras, the orchestras choose their conductors.
Carnegie often insists on what conductor appears with the orchestra. They may not tell Berlin or Vienna, but when Charles Dutoit quit the OSM, their Carnegie weekend became endangered (and never fully recovered), with a Carnegie spokesperson saying they prefer orchestras with their music directors. No music director, no Carnegie appearance.
And there was a time the OSM went to Carnegie where they played with James Ehnes at home, but then with either Joshua Bell or Maxim Vengerov playing the same concerto – Carnegie wanted a bigger name than Ehnes was at the time.
Their loss.
who cares?
Here’s my take on the season. First of all, for all its supposed focus on Latin culture, there are serious gaps. No music by Carlos Chavez or Heitor Villa-Lobos as far as I can see, and only a few songs by Revueltas. It’s a good thing to finally hear a complete Estancia live, as opposite to the four dances that we usually hear – and even those we don’t hear live that often. But that’s about it in the orchestral series, except for composer in residence Gabriela Ortiz. With a little bit of planning we should have had at least a semi-staged performance of one of Ginastera’s operas; Bomarzo is a true masterpiece.
And how about Latin American Baroque music? There are treasures to be heard. But not at Carnegie Hall.
Ideally, I would have liked a truly encompassing Latin festival that would include not only Latin America, but also European Latin countries. That would mean Italy and France, whose music is part of the mainstream repertoire, Spain, whose music is not heard as often but still appears in concerts, Romania, where we only hear the odd Enescu piece (the Octet is programmed this season), and Portugal – where is the last time you heard a work by, say Joly Braga Santos live? And even places where Latin culture left a mark such as Philippines, where Spanish was for a longtime official language.
The regretful disappearance of American orchestra other than the Big Five and a few others has been commented and is the weakest part of Gillinson’s leadership. But it’s not just American orchestras. For instance, we used to hear the Toulouse Capitol Orchestra during Plasson’s tenure. OK, Bamberg comes with Hrusa this season. And one should not fill the evenings with every second rate band. But these kind of evenings can be judiciously curated. And many “less prestigious” American orchestras, say Cincinnati or Pittsburgh are almost as good as any Big Five.
Finally, and this has also been typical of Gillinson’s years, some works are played twice in a single season, something that did not happen at least with his immediate predecessors. Do we really need to hear Mahler’s 1st or Dvorak’s 9th twice?
A few more thoughts. For a Latin festival, there are no orchestras from Latin America. Yes, the Chavez-Maduro travelling circus has been exposed as the con that anyone with half a brain knew it was. But Argentina’s Camerata Bariloche and Brazil’s Orquestra Sinfônica do Estado de São Paulo play at international level and should have been considered.
Apart from them, cities such as Ciudad de México, Santiago de Chile, Buenos Aires, and Minas Gerais among others have orchestras. They may not be world famous, but they do play an important role in the cultural life of their cities. They do deserve an occasional tour in major centers, and could be pleasant surprises.
There are also some very good baroque bands in Latin America. Oh, well…
Really, a lot of excellent points. Carnegie Hall could really do a service by presenting musicians and groups in the way they present their music at home. For those who can’t travel to Sao Paolo or any number of other cities.