Rattle’s farewell is the least-sold Prom
OrchestrasUp-to-the-minute sales graphs from the BBC Proms show that Simon Rattle’s forthcoming LSO performance of Schumann’s Das Paradies und die Peri on August 22 is attracting hardly any customers.
His other concert – Mahler’s 9th symphony – is sold out.
It comes down to whether an audience trusts a conductor. In this case, his credit may have run out.
Is this really the ‘least sold Prom’ of the season or just – of SR’s two – the lesser sold ?
I agree with you!
Maybe, or it could be that this particular Schumann is not well-known and people aren’t interested in it.
I agree with you. It’s a question of repertoire the Schumann is not well known at all to concert goers!
It’s obscure for a reason … dull, dull, dull.
I agree! Peri is very a moderate work
Balakiev symphony .concert at the RFH.
With Muti and the Philadelphia. the hall was
Half empty. The work is not popular
I don’t recall Muti performng it with Philadelphia. We attended a Philadelphia Orchestra performance of Das Paradies conducted by Sir Simon and it was wonderful. Don’t remember the hall being half full.
this was many years ago.
i do not remember the year
What was in the rest of the programme ?
Lack of interest in things one doesn’t know
= a non-inquiring mind
= poor education
Well, that’s the Woke covered. What about the rest of the world?
Also covers the majority of pensioners. Didn’t see many 70-90 somethings rocking up to the Ligeti Requiem last week.
A wonderful work in my view. Seeing it performed is best.
You really do seem to be very unpleasant. I suppose you are a Trump apologist.
My musical education, as well as in general, is quite fine, thank you, so that I can easily discern from other cues what music I want to hear and what I don’t. I’ve played some Schumann works to mild satisfaction, while I still remember vividly the night when I was 18 and discovered Mahler, listening to recordings of his 3d and 2nd symphonies in succession.
Exactly!
Yes, I thought that was the obvious reason but then you can’t have the click-bait headline.
That was my first thought as well. Everybody has heard of Mahler’s 9th but Schumann’s work is relatively unknown known.
People are stupid. Paradies und die Peri is an amazing piece. Schuhmanns best imho.
Sorry. Can’t agree. It’s another moderate work.
I like to think I know quite a lot of repertoire, but ‘Das Paradies ..’ is a work completely unknown to me, and unusually among works I don’t know, one for which I am struggling to summon up enthusiasm. It would appear that I may not be alone.
And there you have it. I’ve never heard the Schumann cantata, but I would still listen to Mahler’s 9th a hundred times before sitting down once to hear RS’s maunderings.
IMHO it’s also because this is the LSO. The Schumann would be better suited for, say, a JEG period Orchestra Prom. When you see the LSO at the Proms, you’d expect the likes of Mahler, nothing less spectacular. Don’t invite amazing guest orchestras if you’re going to have them perform mid-tier repertoire.
I am sure its not because of Rattle but of the piece by Schumann which is one of the most boring pieces of music I’ve ever participated in.
not whilst the Carmelites remains extant.
Someone who finds the Carmelites ‘boring’ is, basically, a Great Bore.
The Nuns were staged during a rail overtime ban which has made travelling difficult over the last few weeks. It’s also a demanding work, which is not well known to the public. Yes, the arena wasn’t sold out, but over three hours to stand with no support is a long time (I couldn’t do it due to arthritis). To be honest, the losers are the ones who weren’t lucky enough to see or hear this superb Prom
It would have to be spectacularly boring to be worse than the Franck Symphony or Liszt ‘Christus’, both works I heard for the first time at the Proms.
It may simply be a case of repertoire: the Schumann is hardly likely to fill a cavernous space like the RAH whoever conducts it. The Mahler? Clearly no problem. Trust has nothing to do with it!
Possibly less to do with the conductor and more to do with Schumann’s work not being a crowd-puller? For audiences travelling in from outside London the threat of train disruption is probably also a factor.
both I’d say – the most overrated conductor around
Ah well, the thing is, whatever you think, most concert goers certainly don’t seem to agree.
What criteria do you use to rate conductors ? How many times have you seen him conduct ? Why do you think your opinion is so very different to very nearly everybody else who has either watched him conduct or who has performed under his direction ?
In 50 years of live concerts I’ve heard the Schumann once.
Have heard Simon more than once!
It’s not the conductor’s fault it appears to be poorly sold!!!
I doubt it’s to do with the conductor, it’s repertoire. A prom with Beethoven 9th or whatever will sell out no matter who is conducting. I don’t think conductors are really the attraction people often think they are.
You will find that people in and around Birmingham who are interested in classical music do not share your view.
You’ll find that for the majority of the whole world, the conductor is secondary to the music
While “Das Paradies und die Peri” is not prime Schumann, it is well worth the listening, The Royal Albert Hall should be good venue for such a large-scale work.
Back in the era of “Quadraphonic,” there was an EMI vinyl set with soloists Moser / Fassbaender / Gedda. This must be one of the few major label recordings with the Dusseldorf Symphony conducted by Henryk Czyz ….
Think what you will about the worthiness of Schumann’s and Mahler’s music, the fact is that Mahler symphonies are guaranteed to get butts in seats.
Schumann — less so.
Simon Rattle is a very great musician. He is leaving this country, wisely, with Classical music here slowly dying a death. I’m going on the 27th to say a sad Goodbye to him.
He s above all an opportunist. Les rats quittent le navire. And who has ever listened to a Rattle cd twice???? All what he does, others have done better. I except his Bernstein Wonderful town, but not sure he would like to stay in memories for this…
Having followed Rattle’s career from CBSO days, I find Jobim75 comment both offensive and ignorant. Sadly the Schumann is not a crowd puller.
Name a conductor to whom “all what he does, others have done better” does NOT apply.
How can anyone who only ever works at the invitation of others be described as an opportunist ? Please explain.
I listened two many Rattle records more than twice…Dumb comment.
Very great?
Compared with?
Most conductors working today.
Face it: Schumann doesn’t Rattle enough people to buy tickets!
Haha, er, ha…….
Well the wife’s there again.
Think of all the great pieces he could have programmed….
Delius – Life’s Dance, Maxwell Davies – St Thomas Wake or 5th Symphony, Busoni – Piano Concerto, Roy Harris Symphony No 3, Elgar 1………….
Are you quite sure those works you’ve named are the “great pieces” you think they are? Having heard all except the Delius (who went on my no-fly list after the first half-dozen pieces I heard by him), I acknowledge they have some good qualities, but I’m not going to be reaching for them over Mahler.
Clearly a loony.
Nice try.
Is that Paul Wells of Purley?
I suggest it is down to repertoire rather than Simon Rattle’s popularity. Although Paradies und die Peri is a wonderful work it is rarely performed and Schumann has much less drawing power than Mahler. Bravo to Maestro Rattle for taking on Paradies.
Eyeballing the seat map, it does not look catastrophic.
Often the Met is talked about as “the” example of attendance catastrophe. But the true and only global post apocalyptic poster child is Chicago, as we have already explained.
Tickets sold by the CSO in 2021/2022 were 210,227, a stunning ~25% drop against the 276,166 tickets sold in 2018/2019, the last full season before COVID hit. An absolutely terrifying ~40% drop (!!) against the 347,502 tickets sold in the 2017/2018 season. Remember that the CSO went on strike in 2019, so really the 2017/2018 represents their true pre-Covid level.
Jeff Alexander’s and Muti attendance results are 31% worse than Peter Gelb’s if you look at the 2021/2022 year (25% vs 19% drop). They are more than twice as bad if you compare 2017/2018 in Chicago (their true pre-Covid level) against the 2018/2019 New York year (NY pre-Covid level) (40% vs 19% drop).
And wait until you see the 2023 numbers (coming soon).
I am not aware of any organization with more than $100M in endowment (and Chicago has much double that) who has done worse. I am not aware of any organization who pays its Music Director $45K per concern, who has done worse than Chicago, either.
If anyone is aware, please publish the data.
Despite your obsessive posts, you might be right, and I don’t know either. I am not surprised given they had a relic on the podium, a man without artistic ideas as CEO (who can point to an artistic idea that came from Jeff??), and let’s not forget who is charge of artistic programming: Cristina Rocca has been leading the artistic department and she owns at least a third of this disaster, correct? I am surprised she is not mentioned more often on these pages, as well as the CSO Board – Ms Gorno whose only solution is, just a smaller dose of Muti for the next 2 years.
Ridiculous.
The CSO has $340 million in endowment investments, according to their last annual report. It is absurd that they are doing so poorly in terms of audience. They really should do better.
“any organization WHICH….” Maestro Muti wouldn’t make a blunder like that.
You’r right he wouldn’t. He can barely speak English despite having spent decades in the US and rarely ventures beyond 4-word sentences.
He was so arrogant in Paris years ago, when he was given an Award at the Theatre des Champs Elysees and he said “non parlo francese” in front of the Radio France Orchestra !!!
I am fascinated by the constraint contributors show here in their commentary to this ill founded and distasteful claim.
I’m going. I love discovering obscure or challenging repertoire which is why the proms are so successful
This week’s highlight is Aug 17 György Kurtág’s Endgame
I’m like you. I’d have gone if still living in London, but only just returned from three Proms last week. It’s not the Proms that are expensive, it’s London and staying there. Four more over two visits from Leeds, and that’s my summer holiday.
http://arlingtonavenue.co.uk/
Una
Have you tried this?
We had the double, £50, all brilliant.
Quite right!
The Proms is surely the best and cheapest way of both learning the standard repertoire and also exploring the unfamiliar. When I was younger I had a season ticket for nearly ten years – I used to cycle to concerts and get in effectively free of charge. How brilliant was that ?!
They didn’t turn out for Sarah Connolly’s wonderful singing of what was obscure repertoire the other night. I got upgraded from the £9 Circle ticket to the centre Stalls without even asking. Only so much money to spend with the cost of living crisis and people being selective in a barn of a place to fill anyhow. Never heard of that Schumann. Have a ticket for Mahler 9 for £20, and coming down from Leeds to hear it.
Sadly a £20 seat at the RAH these days is a bit like being in Leeds. Sorry, couldn’t resist making that comment but it’s only borne from constant frustration with the horrible acoustic in which we have to enjoy some of the best concerts of the year!
At a glance, Proms 40, 43 and 47 have fewer tickets sold than Prom 49, the Rattle/Schumann. Finding that out took three minutes of work.
Can’t go wrong with Mahler !!!!!!
What a an absurd programming: I cann’t imagine a less fitting piece for such a concert avenue…
You need to explain and justify your statement, lest anyone think you are prejudiced in some way.
Absurd commenting.
I think you mean venue.
I suppose that for those that want to hear it the broadcast on the third programme will be enough. Sitting by wireless hubby in his smoking jacket with his good lady by his side listening to Schumann without the hindrance of popcorn munchers to destroy the moment. If only the announcers weren’t quite so vulgar.
Schumann is not popular. Paradies is not known. I don’t think it’s much to do with Rattle. Had it been a Boult or Barbirolli performance years ago I think the sales would have been much the same
The work was very popular in Scumann’s lifetime apparently. Simon Rattle has recorded it with the LSO.
I will be going to wave Simon goodbye having missed out on the Mahler 9 and to have a once in a lifetime opportunity to hear this piece.
I hope the concert goes well.
Nonsense. The piece is a real dirge.
The headline is factually incorrect. His farewell is Prom 56 – Mahler 9 – on August 27th. The Schumann is on August 22nd. I bought Rattle’s CD recording of this Schumann work and have heard it once. I’d love to hear it live but, not living in London, it’s just so expensive travelling these days and tickets for Prom concerts is ridiculously expensive now, it’s incredible they get any audience at all. Personally, I would have preferred hearing Rattle/LSO give Elgar 2nd Symphony another performance at the Proms this year. A wholly more appropriate work for the occasion as it is very much an end of an era work.
As for those who continuously knock Simon Rattle; you don’t know what you’re talking about. Shame on you!
Your logic skills have let you down completely here, SD.
My opinion? It’s the combination of piece amd composer that doesn’t draw people or inspire “trust.” Wrong for the giant venue. And the piece is an endless ramble. Musical archeology – it often resurrects the deservedly deeply buried. Maybe Rattle wants to get us out of our comfort zone? Or make a recording? Or just be different at all costs…. The balance sheet’ll suffer on this evening.
Nevermind the piece, watching Rattle conduct is excruciating torture. The sooner he takes his ridiculous mannerisms and facial expressions, plus his penchant for totally ignoring the composer’s wishes and instructions in the score away from the UK the better.
1) Rattle’s gestures and expressions are not for your benefit, they are chosen to help his performers. 2) Out of nearly 5,300 seats in the Albert Hall, less than 400 face the conductor. 3) Please specify instances of Rattle ignoring composers’ wishes. 4) Please compare his rate of deviation from the score with other well-known conductors.
No problem, nobody is forcing you to go. You can stay at home and watch Eastenders.
Nothing to do with trust, otherwise Mahler would also be selling poorly. Everything to do with repertoire. Mahler 9 will always appeal more than a little known Schumann work. Do you even think through such remarks or is the intention merely to be provocative for the sake of it?
The latter would be in keeping with the proprietor of this website, the former less so.
I heard this work once, more than 30 years ago, in an incandescent performance by Mendi Rodan, one of the greatest conductors of all time, and his Israel Sinfonietta Beersheva et al. It’s not an especially approachable or enjoyable work, but if you have a chance to hear it, in a first class concert, no less, go for it! It’s Schumann, for one thing. And Rattle. And there seems to be a large audience for new and unfamiliar music in London. Go for it! As with kids, sometimes the difficult ones are especially rewarding.
The Schumann, while very beautiful, is hardly a draw, sadly. it was very bold programming.
He’d have been better off opening with one of Mahler’s lovely re-orchestrations of one of Schumann’s symphonies, coupled with a complimentary choral work in the second half.
Most of us would pass on those icky Mahler Schumann Symphony re-orchestrations.
While I am one who finds Mahler’s “icky” reorchestrations an improvement on the original. The deadwood is cleared outand the resulting music sounds more like Beethoven.
But surely it’s supposed to sound like Schumann?
Schumann and Opera?
Doesn’t lie easily..
Now if Sir Simon had been conducting Porgy & Bess…?!
It’s not an opera.
What essential features of an opera does it lack ? What features does it include which preclude it from being an opera ?
It’s an oratorio it’s not suppoed to be staged. It would be like calling The Dream of Gerontius an opera.
Genoveva (Schumann’s only actual opera) is terrific! I don’t understand why I had to go to Germany to see it staged. Should be standard repertoire.
Well, it wasn’t so long ago that Rattle conducted it at the Barbican. It’s a lovely piece, but if I’d heard it then I wouldn’t be buying tickets now.
Quite obviously it’s the piece. The average concert goer knows what they like and likes what they know. Anyway most Schumann, possibly aside from the piano concerto, is unlikely sell tickets quickly.
This would be a lot less sold were it being done by other performers and personally I appreciate Rattle giving it a rare outing.
Some people (me) also hold-off booking until the last minute if this is reasonable availability because you find you can’t go you will never be able to return your ticket.
I also think the seat map can be quite misleading, because the eye is drawn to the seats still available. If you want to see what a poorly sold concert looks like check out Prom 43, which is also coming up sooner!
The bottom line here is that if you turn-up for this Schumann / Rattle concert next week the hall will feel pretty full even if it’s not sold out.
Is that because he is leaving the uk for the EU ?
Why isn’t there more Mozarr Rossini Offenbach Gilbert and Sullivan. Schubert Mendelsohn etc..more melodic tuneful music
Some contemporary music is boring and noisy
Isn’t the real story here that audiences make ticket buying decisions based on the music, not the musician?
Orchestras justify the massive salaries for conductors like Rattle because they supposedly can put butts in seat no matter what they’re conducting. But incidents like this seem to show that they merely benefit from being at the right place at the right time.
This is not an “incident”, it’s a complete non-story. The concert will be well attended and the audience will enjoy it. Far fewer people would take a risk on this not very well known piece had Rattle not been doing it.
I realize it wasn’t due to Rattle, but I’ll long remember him as the guy who played straight man (and his LSO too) at the Olympic games. Many loved the bit and got a big guffaw out of the whole thing. But to me it symbolically (if not technically too) further marginalized classical music. I know It was done to mock the stereotyped stuffed-shirt nature of “classical” and such occasions in general, but the punchline went on way too long.
How sensationalist and glaringly biased can you get?
If it had come down to whether an audience trusts a conductor, the Mahler concert wouldn’t have been sold out.
It’s simply that Das Paradies und die Peri is not that familiar and attractive to audiences, and has few recordings.
https://www.discogs.com/search/?q=Das+Paradies+und+die+Peri+&type=master
Meanwhile, Ed Gardner attracted a full house for Ligeti ….
He attracted a full house for Also sprach Zarathustra but the Ligeti Requiem was definitely the highlight of that concert.
Absolute nonsense.Once again, you contradict yourself in just two sentences.If they wouldn´t trust him ,they wouldn´t buy the Mahler too…..The Schumann piece is wonderful,but quiet rare.
Of course you “forgot” to mention that the Mahler 9 IS his actual farewell concert, 5 days after the Schumann.
I’m all for bringing out obscure repertory for audiences. It is important for music which is not well known to be brought out for the public. That said, The Proms is not the audience for this sort of programming.
Well the concert took place last night and the hall was full… so much for the gratuitous negative post.