BBC Proms fight over presenter’s crotchets and quavers
NewsThe BBC newscaster Clive Myrie, presenting the Proms, let rip with an anti-elitist tweet that has ruffled some feathers.
We’ve to keep pushing on that. This is music for everyone, not a select few who know their crotchets from their quavers!! That’s boring and naff!! #bbcproms https://t.co/nGcyR9xybk
— Clive Myrie (@CliveMyrieBBC) July 14, 2023
Critic Ariane Todes took issue:
Football and tennis are for everyone too, so do you think commentators analysing serves, angles, strategies etc etc is boring and naff, too?
— Ariane Todes (@ArianeTodes) July 16, 2023
Writer Stephen Johnson:
Yes to your first point Clive. But my grandfather conducted choral societies all over industrial Lancashire. Large proportion of working class members. All read music. Many taught themselves.
— Stephen Johnson (@BehemothMusic) July 16, 2023
Pianist Stephen Hough: But without crotchets and quavers there would be no @bbcproms and no Beatles and no hymn tunes and no nursery rhymes … Semiquavers though? Now you’re talking
Critic Jessica Duchen:
Here is a note called (in UK) a crotchet: ♩
A quaver ♪ is half that length
One ♩equals two quavers ♫
Next, a semiquaver (here are 2: ♬) is half the length of a ♪
♩ = ♫
♪ = ♬
♩ = ♬♬— Jessica Duchen ✍️🎶 (@jessicaduchen) July 16, 2023
Academic Alexandra Wilson:
Ah, dear, please don't go down this route, Clive… Music literacy isn't for a select few and it isn't boring or naff. Education empowers people, as the miners, factory workers and unemployed people of the early C20th who taught themselves music theory knew. https://t.co/FxWWnN0x0M
— Alexandra Wilson (@amwilson_opera) July 16, 2023
You have to wonder why a competent BBC presenter feels a need to mock technical knowledge and deprecate expertise, the more so when he can read music himself. He probably doesn’t mean to do it. He is playing to a populist gallery.
Surely Mr Myrie’s point is simply that watching or listening to the Proms should be for everyone, including those people who happen not to know about music theory, music history, and so on.
During the winter Olympics I became entranced by watching the curling despite knowing very little about it. I watched it almost every day that it was broadcast on television. But, at the same time, would I have been interested in watching a one-off TV programme about the history or rules of curling? No.
I do not read music, do not play an instrument, do not sign and I do not know my A minor from an F major, I just listen to music. Someone has to, why are those composers writing so much if not just for me.
I had to switch off within five minutes – no musical introduction to the programme, or even about the Proms and the upcoming season,, just gush from Anna Thingummy the organist, and straight in.
Surely you could have just enjoyed watching the programme – I missed the start but there was certainly plently of information about the second half pieces?
You’re open-minded aren’t you? You gave up before concert started … says it all.
Ah. Ignorance and prejudice come in many colors, classes, shades and quavers.
And social media? You‘d think that, like any large corporation, the BBC would have strictest guidelines on how and when employees may use social media in situations that reflect on the company. But the Corporation seems to be consistently on the warpath with the principles of good governance.
Clive should, among other things, take a course on opera from Zenab Badawi. And otherwise stick to reading from his teleprompter.
PS: Irony? If this episode had happened in the US, and a non-African-American in an official capacity had had the temerity to comment in a public forum, perhaps somewhat benightedly, on aspects of African-American music, that person would have been summarily dismissed.
“If this episode had happened in the US, and a non-African-American in an official capacity had had the temerity to comment in a public forum, perhaps somewhat benightedly, on aspects of African-American music, that person would have been summarily dismissed.”
Happily, in the UK, we are perhaps less advanced in the racist doctrine that the music you can comment on, even critically, is determined by the colour of your skin.
What kind of comment is this?
Myrie’s (ridiculous) comment is made as a British non-muwical man commenting on classical music: nothing more.
It is exceptionally bad manners to drag the issue of skin colour into a debate which has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
I honestly think people have completely misunderstood Clive’s tweet. What he’s saying is naff is to say that you cannot enjoy classical music without a detailed technical understanding. That enjoyment and engagement is clearly a very different thing from the skills that are necessary to perform classical notated music to a high-level – where knowing your crotchets and quavers is pretty much essential.
Hi Stephen. Can you rewrite that please. It doesn’t make sense as it stands.
Twitter character accounts don’t allow for much nuance, plus he was writing and responding to dozens of tweets (good for him), so there was I agree a less good interpretation you could make from his words. But what he was saying is that anyone should be able to enjoy classical music, whether or not they know the technical language. Which is pretty uncontroversial I’d have thought!
It definitely feels like one of those days when classical Twitter has picked the wrong target – thee are plenty of others…..
Makes perfect sense to me. problem lies with you perhaps?
Exactly, Mr Maddock. Is he not correct in supposing that classical music can have an enthralling effect even on people who do not have the technical knowledge to be able to identify and spell out when the music returns to ‘the home key’ or to count the number of ‘chromatic melismas’ the piece contains? Are you really incapable of being excited by the opening of the Sea Symphony unless you can discern, “Aha, B flat minor succeded by D major”?
Couldn’t agree more. I don’t think anyone would suggest you need to be an artist to enjoy an art gallery, or an a actor
to enjoy theatre, or a historian to enjoy a museum, or an accomplished sports person to enjoy football. Concerts, art galleries and museums can be enjoyable as well as educational if handled in the right way.
If the intent behind the tweet has been misunderstood, it is because the wording of the tweet is very clumsy; for a prominent broadcaster, we have every right to expect better. The fact that Myrie was presenting a broadcast of the festival on which he commented so clumsily is an aggravating factor. And however you read the tweet, it is derogatory to imply that the rudiments of music theory and the value of understanding them are necessarily “boring”. It is one thing to argue that “everyone” can enjoy music without understanding the underlying notation; it is quite another to argue that acquiring such understanding would not enhance one’s capacity to enjoy and appreciate music. And to suggest that only a “select few” can possibly understand one of the most basic rudiments of music notation is decidedly counterproductive and probably untrue — many people *do* have some understanding at that very basic level, and it is very unhelpful to give the impression that it is beyond the capabilities of most people (it is actually pretty simple, as others have observed).
But the technicalities about music are boring (as is most in depth knowledge of any field to prior unfamiliar with it, my wife can bite anybody to death taking about geology and I could taking about computing design patterns, everybody may enjoy the fruits of our labour but I’m sure most people would avoid those topics).
I remember my class about acoustics, that bore most youngsters intending to be professional musicians (I paid attention only because it matched my parallel Engineering background) or the repetitive nature of much of building piano technique. These things may be very necessary but anybody saying it is never boring is a better person than me.
Well said.
Stephen – years and years ago we sang in the same concerts. You are absolutely right. You don’t need to understand quavers and crotchets to to get good music. I have colleagues who are, in NL’s terms, musically illiterate, but who love what you and I were able to put across as undergrads.
Clive Myrie speaks for them, not for us. And more power to his elbow.
I’m old. I’ve never heard anyone say you can’t enjoy music without technical knowledge.
You are deliberately misunderstanding what he said. He was making the point that classical music isn’t just for an eletist minority.
No, you (and others here) are deliberately ignoring what he actually said.
Why did he have to include “boring and naff”? If he was referring to perceived exclusivity rather than musical education, he should have taken more care and said so.
Not good enough.
Ignorance is bliss. Literacy & knowledge are superfluous. Educating the masses? Not the BBC.
Faux outrage? It is far too easy to pay lip service to the universality of classical music. In the UK classical music has to all intents and purposes been transformed into a fashion accessory for the middle classes?
Nonsense. There are better ways of spending an evening in the “right” company without having to sit in silence and listen to music you don’t like.
‘cos yeah, it’s just so fashionable.
You could say that a lot of things are the fashion accessories of the middle classes (like sourdough bread, pesto, fine wines, Wimbledon, cocker-poodle dogs, horse riding, holidays in Tuscany, tasteful olive green window frames and wisteria clad front doors, names like Camilla, Saffron and Archie etc.) but I would lay a £50 bet that for 95 per cent of these aspirant and fragrant middle classes….. knowing a crotchet from a quaver is not part of their accessory arsenal.
It’s always a disappointment when someone you very much admire makes a comment that deeply offends you. Notwithstanding the attempts above to ‘interpret’ Clive Myrie’s Twitter comment it is quite clear to me that he knew exactly what he was saying and, as a professional presenter, how best to say it leaving no room for ‘deliberate misunderstanding’.
The disparagement of knowledge is already pretty widespread and it’s a shame that here is yet another example (‘boring and naff’) from a leading, popular and generally entertaining commentator.
He is still top of my list of favourite TV presenters – but only just!
Doesn’t take much to offend some people does it.
A boring and naff comment?
Another carelessly worded tweet.
When will they learn?
Football is loved by millions, of all classes and levels of education. Fans and commentators seem to revel in talking about the technicalities and rules of the game, the players’ form etc etc. It enables full appreciation of the sport, it’s part of the enjoyment and creates a sense of belonging amongst fans. They don’t call this knowledge elitist or dismiss it as boring or unnecessary.
True.
Football fans would never tolerate such poor quality commentary.
Replace Gary Lineker with a gardening presenter and see how it works out.
Having said that, it would save £1m or so.
We’ve already had Alan Titchmarsh presenting the Proms…
Yes, that was the point.
I’m forced to defend Mr. Myrie. These days most people cannot read any music. A lot of people that enjoy classical music cannot read it. Simple as that.
Nobody is saying otherwise.
It’s his negative attitude to people who can read music that people are objecting to.
See the difference?
I missed this comment as I had already switched to R3. I am afraid that a few minutes of light-hearted banter from Clive, Sandi and Anna was more than I could take. It may appeal to a lot of people but please count me out.
A few first night comments on my review…
https://www.colinscolumn.com/dalia-stasevska-conducts-the-first-night-of-the-bbc-proms-2023-including-paul-lewis-playing-griegs-piano-concerto-lesley-manville-narrating-for-sibeliuss-snofrid-and-brittens-young-persons/
Nice piece. I was quite surprised and disappointed that there wasn’t an encore for the Grieg and on this occasion I’m happy to lay it at the door of BBC TV who wanted to be off the air promptly at 9pm for Today At Wimbledon. Indeed, having watched the Prom back on the iPlayer on Saturday morning (having been there on Friday) they were virtually off the air when the baton came down.
Back in the day when I was a youngster watching cartoons at 7:00AM in America, the very thing that Clive is saying was taking place.
https://youtu.be/KZTE9MDoaLs
Many cartoons had classical music underpinnings and were giving a powerful appreciation of the music to kids who had no knowledge of crochets and quavers. And these were kids of all colors and backgrounds.
That Clive is able to expound upon the terminologies suggests that he knows what he’s talking about.
The best music critics are those who are plebs that can simply exclaim; “I like it” or “I don’t like it” without necessarily having extensive knowledge of ‘who, what, when, where or why’.
The best performers are those who can pique at least one person’s interest into finding out about crochets and quavers.
I don’t care who presents the neatly-packaged, sterile, non-live Prom concerts on tv, they’re all rubbish anyway!
This is the nadir of wokery. There wouldn’t even be ‘something for everybody’ (whatever that means) unless the ‘select few” playing playing it knew their ‘crotchets from their quavers’. Come to think of it, isn’t he one of a far smaller ‘select few’ who get to be a presenter at a BBC Prom?
Keep fighting! It’s great for publicity…like the cage-match between Meta and Twitter!!! BTW…love those “crotches” and “quivers” too!
Concert halls and opera houses would be very empty if those who can’t read music are considered not good enough to attend …
‘Knowledge is elitist’. Just what you’d expect the presenter of Mastermind to say.
Save yourselves a lot of stress. Classical music isn’t for everyone. Nor has it ever been.
It’s a myth purported by people invested in and nervous about the future of their own industry.
When something is for everyone you don’t need to go around telling people it’s for everyone.
I think people would be appalled if reading and writing ( the alphabet, books, general literacy) were to be described as boring and “naff”. We all know how useful , enjoyable.and powerful literacy can be! ( eg …. This conversation wouldn’t be happening without it!). Well….. the same goes for musical literacy. Of course all music can be appreciated without musical literacy……. But it doesn’t help the cause of all music and musicians to make negative comments about music theory and education. Classical music is NOT elitist and this myth must not be perpetuated. Music education ( practical AND theoretical) should be prioritised in all schools. It has been proved that classical music helps children to be more disciplined and collaborative…. More content and spiritually aware and enhances academic and personal growth. Music is for EVERYONE ….. and that includes the theoretical and academic side for those that have that opportunity. Let us respect ALL aspects of the world of music and encourage much more of it in our schools! We have to come together to save this essential subject from the Arts Council cuts and a government who seem to have no idea how important music is .
Brava Natalie, always on the money and a fine singer too.
What I object to is that Clive Myrie, Sandi Toksvig and Anna Lapwood (and it is the case with all such presenters) not only present concerts but provide an instant, critical appraisal too. Unfortunately, that means that, if there is a glitch in a performance, they cannot say what any critical listener might, such as “the fugue was exciting but became scrappy at the end” but instead claim that it was inspired, exciting, out of this world because they can’t do otherwise. In the good old days, presenters did just that, present. Let’s see those days return.
He’s entitled to his opinion. Surely. Not knowing your crotchets from your quavers is surely a gender dysphoric metaphor, right?
Music theory is neither boring nor naff and he should consider his suitability to present concerts. He was not expected to be rude about learning. People appreciate many things with little idea of the processes involved , yet show their admiration politely.
I know of a young man, who through illness, was unable to take his GCSEs but later, continued with his practical and music theory lessons. Now having gained grade 8 he is preparing for the ARSM diploma and grade 7 and 8 music theory.
These qualifications are his CV, nothing else, yet he has never been unemployed in the finance industry. What has always impressed employers, is not so much that he plays an instrument to a high standard, but that he can sit at a desk, usually in a school hall, with just an exam paper and compose for any instrument and answer questions on musical scores just using his brains.
It is an impressive skill to be able to read music and hear the composition in your head. Knowledge is power and should be valued, not derided.
Myrie’s comment was insulting, totally unnecessary and disappointing.An apology should be forthcoming.
I don’t think that Mr Myrie was rude. I have a feeling that the impressive young man, who is preparing for his ABRSM diploma, might see Mr Myrie’s remarks in the way they were meant. Of course I cannot ask the young man nor Me Myrie.
I still think it’s good youade your observations….and yes, I admire anyone who can compose. I have tried and didn’t get very far with it even though I had many opportunities in my young life. Now a retired music teacher.
Good on you, Mr Myrie,
You are 100% right. May I add the following, although I realise that I pull the discussion in another direction:
Not enough opportunities for children to take up music at school (hence it is more and more for the privileged).
While people may have taught themselves music theory and -reading in the past and while in theory this is still possible, there are so so many opportunities for some children to explore all manners of hobbies from A-Z, music takes TIME AND SPACE AND PATIENCE to learn. Let’s see when music will feature again slightly larger in the curriculum!
One can obviously experience the joys of classical music, as I do, without knowing one’s crotchets from one’s quavers. Thank God there are plenty who do, not just a happy few!
The highly intellectual role of a TV presenter of the type that started off the Proms is to fill the airwaves with empty blether . Myrie succeeded admirably at that
Of course you don’t need to know music theory to enjoy it, just as you don’t need to know anything about art history to appreciate paintings or the biography of George Orwell to appreciate Animal Farm or 1984. That’s so obvious that it doesn’t need Clive Myrie or anyone else to assert it.
What is most concerning is that Myrie, who presents Mastermind and now the Proms, has decided to contribute this facile banter to the Twittersphere. By entering into this cesspit of toxic persiflage, he demeans himself and his role. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that he brings the BBC into disrepute though, because, to do that, the BBC would have to have a good reputation in the first place.
I believe that this was merely a pre-emptive strike against those who are asking what Clive Myrie was doing introducing the Proms. The answer is the obsession with making everything ‘proletarian’ instead of ‘bourgeois’. During the Stalin era, many of the foremost Russian composers were denounced for ‘formalism’, ‘intellectualism’ and ‘anti-communism’; music had to embrace ‘socialist realism’. More recent was the comic ‘Classic CD’, whose populist image was typified by one of the cover-mounted free CDs entitled ‘Become an opera buff in one hour’. That was so popular that it ceased publication. Classic FM had a presenter called Henry Kelly whose expertise was in horse racing. Nigel Kennedy, who had an impeccable speaking voice, had to be re-branded as a punk classical violinist purely as a marketing gimmick. Where is he now? How many CDs has he released lately? Does a 66-year-old punk no longer appeal to the public?
You no longer need to know anything at all about music to be a BBC music presenter. All you need is a pleasing voice and the ability to read a script. If you have a slight cockney twang or a Northern accent, so much the better.
And so Clive Myrie is introducing the Proms. So what? I have long ceased to listen to all the presenter’s drivel. It’s all about making lots of words fill every second of space available, including the applause at the end. You know the kind of thing: ‘And the soloist Veronica Petrovinanski comes forward to take a bow; she’s wearing a blue gown with pink polka dots designed by the woman who created the Queen Consort’s coronation dress. And she turns to the orchestra, who all stand up to take the applause. And as she turns back to the audience the leader takes her right hand; she raises her left hand to show her sparkling engagement ring given to her by her fiancé, the actor who plays Fred Nirk in ‘East Enders…’.
The only way to spare yourself from this drivel is to go to the concert – and I shall be there tonight to hear Coleridge-Taylor’s Ballade for Orchestra, Bruch’s First Violin Concerto and Bartok’s Concerto for Orchestra. Who cares who introduces it?
Every year the BBC TV Proms presenters seem to have to stress that classical music is not elitist. And every time they do it, they seem to be implying that it is elitist.
At primary school we were played Mars from Holst’s Planets and I loved it. My uncle, who repaired Midland Red buses, bought me the LP for Christmas. My Mum (school secretary) and Dad (gas fire assembler) encouraged me to get to know more. Nobody ever told me it was elitist.
Well said!
It is good to read your comment and my thoughts and experiences are similar to yours.
A teacher played Mendelssohn’s Hebrides Overture for us and I was transported to a new world.
I wanted to hear more and my Dad bought my first LP of Overtures – that piece, Midsummer Night’s dream etc.
I wouldn’t have known “elitism” if I had tripped over it!
same here, Derek. For me it was The Strauss Family series on ITV. My uncle bought me the double album and the classical music world was opened up to me, a working class child living in an East London tower block. I had no inkling that this music might not be ‘for me’…
Well, this has provoked a lot of comment! Pity. Katie Derham and David Norris please. Glamour and insight.
However, let’s just think, now, about those human beings called musicians who are going to concentrate and play their hearts out for the next eight weeks for our personal pleasure ; we’ll be in the hall, watching on TV or listening on Radio 3. And we also thank the many engineers who broadcast the concerts to us. Teachers, too, who are exposing children to this exciting music. A life – time of listening pleasure can begin at home and school. Enjoy!
This from somebody who, according to Wikipedia “met his wife, who then worked in publishing, at the 1992 London launch of a book about Swiss cheeses.”
Seems like the furore over this has been overtaken after the new gruesome format of University Challenge was aired for the first time.