Chicago on Thielemann: Grab him now
NewsFrom Larry Johnson’s Chicago Classical review of the German conductor’s return to the Chicago Symphony for the first time this century.
On the way to the Chicago Symphony Orchestra concert Thursday night, I ran into a veteran CSO member in the parking garage and asked him how the week’s rehearsals had gone: Did Christian Thielemann live up to advance expectations?”
“No,” said the musician. “He far, far exceeded them.”
He went on to say that the German conductor was most impressive and provided a virtual seminar in how to efficiently use limited rehearsal time without wasting a minute.
“So, should he be the guy?”
“They should grab him,” he said. “Grab him now!”…
Read on here.
Photo: CSO/Todd Rosenberg
Kirill Petrenko is praying for the Chicago option…
A good joke….
Don’t think so
Thielemann does things to the Germans that Petrenko (and Rattle) never could and never can even from their perch on top of the Berlin Philharmonic.
Petrenko is especially shaky on that perch since he got his job merely as a compromise candidate when the BPO was irreconcilably divided between the Thielemann camp and the Nelsons camp.
So yes, Petrenko is praying that Chicago offers Thielemann so much money that Thielemann decamps for America for good.
Thielemann in Berlin would suck the air right out of Petrenko.
A little correction however: Nelsons never was an option for the Berlin Philharmonic. Dudamel, Jansons, Chailly, Barenboim… but Nelsons, never.
Kirill Petrenko is as fine a conductor as you’ll ever see. He reminds me of Kleiber in style and, from what I remember, he’s very much respected by the BPO. I wouldn’t think his perch is shaky at all.
I heard their recording of Tchaikovsky #6 in the car about 2years ago and I didn’t know what the orchestra was until the finish; I only know it stopped me dead in my tracks.
K. Petrenko sadly had a not very memorable debut with the CSO several years ago and never came back. I was rooting for him, but they just didn’t seem to connect. Also, he and the Berliners seem to be getting along swimmingly, so I don’t see this happening in a million years.
Meant was : Petrenko is desperately praying for a Thielemannn-CSO ticket…
I think if Thielemann gets the Staatsoper/kapelle, and Petrenko stays at the Philharmonic, there will naturally come a division of labor between the two in Berlin, with Thielemann doing the Austro-German repertory and Petrenko doing everything else (which is what they are doing anyway!)
I don’t think they’ll formally coordinate, but I think they’d try to avoid have competing Beethoven cycles on the same week, the same night, the same time. (Like it is between Carnegie Hall vs. the New York Philharmonic, where there is truly open warfare, lol.)
Well, Thielemann is a fantastic conductor in his prime. so, good idea!
A well penned review, if we took it at face value. But, should we believe Mr. Johnson on Thielemann, considering that an eminent (if loquacious) CSO musician and illustrious (if misunderstood) composer warned us repeatedly that neither Mr. Johnson or the Chicago Classical Review ought to be considered “authoritative”? We should be very careful whom we trust.
We would feel much reassured if these reports covering Thielemann were corroborated by the pet journalists anointed with authority by the CSO and Muti, such as Hedy Weiss. Unfortunately, we have not seen Weiss’ review of Thielemann’s concert – can a good Samaritan please help us find it? Or, are we to conclude that Ms. Weiss is so subservient to the Italian Stallion that she did not deem the German Maestro’s performance newsworthy? What about the slavish Chicago Sun Times, have they published a review of the conductor who is generally considered the front runner candidate to the CSO music director post? Or, are we to infer that this authoritative paper is so biased and shameless as to have opted for dereliction of duty?
Mr. Johnson’s authority is best established by comparison, so a few more words on Ms. Weiss. She is on friendly, cozy terms with Muti, the purist who gave a historic contribution to US culture by enforcing the use of the N-word in an opera as per the original Verdi libretto, and, to add insult to injury, engineered casting to have the word sang by an African American singer; and twisted the knife, manipulating the Black singer to declare in public that “he [i.e., the singer] did not have any problem” with it. Muti also spoke openly against metoo and arguably expressed views that could be perceived by the average reader as trans phobic (judge for yourself here: https://www.vanityfair.it/news/cronache/2021/06/29/riccardo-muti-mi-sono-stancato-della-vita). Ms. Weiss is often granted the special privilege of interviewing the luminous Maestro. Her reviews of Muti’s concerts should be read with gloves on, so much are they inevitably dripping oil and sugar. For SD readers not acquainted with this world class Chicago journalist, it should be mentioned that in 2017 the Chicago Theater Accountability Coalition launched a petition urging Chicago venues to refuse Weiss free tickets to their shows because of the “racism, homophobia, and body shaming found in her reviews”. The legendary Steppenwolf theatre issued a statement denouncing Weiss, and maintained that her “critical contribution has, once again, revealed a deep-seated bigotry and a painful lack of understanding of this country’s historic racism.”(read all about it here: https://www.americantheatre.org/2017/06/27/the-review-that-shook-chicago/)
Raise your hand if you are surprised that the Italian Stallion and Ms. Weiss get along. Or that Ms. Weiss is appreciated at the CSO. Great minds think alike. As for an authoritative review of Thielemann in Chicago, Mr. Johnson is still, by far, the best -and seemingly only- option.
Lawrence Johnson is an experienced and trustworthy music critic. You, by contrast, are a nameless abuser with a single-issue hate agenda. Tone it down, please.
Mr. Lebrecht, of course Lawrence Johnson is an experienced and trustworthy music critic. That has always been my position. On the other hand, a CSO musician who often posts here has repeatedly tried to ridicule Mr. Johnson and stated that he is not a real music critic, for the only reason that he does not like his reviews.
I am very surprised at your note. Clearly I have a one issue agenda, and I choose to write anonymously to protect myself and my family. But I am a not an abuser. What I write is polemic and even vitriolic (e.g., “Italian Stallion”, “castrated sound”) but always accurate when I point out Muti’s unacceptable behaviors. I challenge you to point out which part is not accurate or abusive.
You own and control this website, you have the power to censor me. But I will not be intimidated to silence, not even by you.
everything you write is ludicrous and slanderous. there is no ounce of truth in your baseless accusations.
You write anonymously to protect your family.
Yeah, right.
If you believe what you say say it under your own name. Put up or shut up
I did laugh at the “Italian Stallion”, though!!
Chicagorat, the internet is full of idiots but in the category of the monomaniacal, impervious to any type of intelligent thinking you are in class of your own, bu
I have not enjoyed any of his recordings but I was impressed when I attended an NYPO rehearsal of Schoenberg’s PELLEAS: very professional. I gave up on the expensive concert tickets as the rehearsals were about $15 and often fascinating.
CT is the greatest conductor alive!
…along with Gatti.
And Metzmacher!
Then, pretty please, grab him already, Chicago! While he is undoubtedly a great conductor in a limited repertoire – wait until he opens his mouth. There is no nationalistic German composer (Pfitzner, anyone?) whom he has not defended vigorously. On purely musical grounds, of course.
If Chicago doesn’t make the offer they are morons!!!
The CSO might examine his history with other orchestras.
I’m sure they have; at that level they all know each other. The management and the musicians. My guess, though, is that this is a case of “Whatever issues there have been elsewhere, we’re the CSO – there’s a great level of mutual respect – and he’ll be on good behavior.” And he probably will be.
And I wouldn’t discount his ability to stretch repertoire-wise. Muti did in Philly, maybe less so in Chicago.
Yes, Thielemann is a demanding conductor. Just as Sawallisch was. Not more, not less.
I don’t have a horse in this race. And I’ve WANTED to like Christian Thielemann’s conducting, especially his Bruckner, although to my ears his Bruckner is always highly competent but never transcendent. (Which is at least better than 80% of other conductors)
But if I were in the CSO search committee, as good as the “first date” has apparently been (and I would have loved to hear these performances of Bruckner’s 8th live), I’d be doing some due diligence with other orchestras CT has led, to understand why it always seems to end badly. Do orchestras end up with buyer’s remorse? What do the musicians in the orchestra think of him after they’ve worked with him for a while?
Or is it that he’s simply a control freak and does not like having Intendants and/or others having a say in matters he feels are his domain? I really don’t know, but hopefully the right questions are being asked. And maybe there are good answers as well – I would never pre-ordain what anyone digging will find.
Each of Thielemann’s Dresden concerts in the remainder of the current season include just one composer: Mendelssohn, Richard Strauss, Bruckner 5, Beethoven 9, and a surprise: Mahler 3.
I’d be interested to know if he gets as far into the 20th century as Debussy, Ravel, Prokofiev, or Shostakovich. A Music Director position in the US would expect much more than the repertoire for which he is known.
He’s actually done a fair bit of Debussy and other composers. And it wasn’t half bad either (to my actual surprise).
There are surely guest conductors to provide the public with all that American and “Modern” mumbo-jumbo.
Curious about that Mahler 3.
I’ve heard a Dropbox recording of Thielemann’s M3 with the Dresden Staatskapelle (Garanca was fabulous!), and I have a ‘pirate’ CD of Salonen conducting it with the same orchestral while they on tour (Lilli Paasikini). Both were good, but I actually liked the Salonen one a bit more.
He conducted incredible performances of La Mer, Prélude à l après-midi, Ravel and Chausson with Munich Phil, also on tour in Europe. It was exciting and very subtle. Also in Berlin he conducted french music.
CT accepting Chicago would certainly score some headlines and concertgoers could expect some great music making in a limited core Germanic repertoire. As a professional musician, CT would have to put in the time to prepare contemporary pieces (as did Muti) and he’d be compensated well for the meager 9-10 weeks he’d spend in Chicago (like Muti].
But is this really what is needed at the CSO? Ticket sales are down, and concerts have become a bit lethargic with Muti and a lot of recycling of programming. CT’s penchant for slower tempos (e.g, his Beehtoven cycle with the VPO) may not energize the audience to come back. I’m not arguing for youth and energy over experience, but a change of direction would be welcomed.
You’re too generous. This would do absolutely nothing to attract new audiences. They need an exciting young figure, preferably Black, Hispanic or female, with bold ideas about programming and presentation if they hope to remain the least bit relevant to Chicago residents.
Sorry, Slipped Disc curmudgeons, but it’s true. The people who admire the old CSO of Solti are a dying breed. Who is going to replace them?
You’re damn right ! The CSO should immediately grab Alondra de la Parra. Tsss…
A $25-million, 5-year deal might work.
I have my doubt about CT wanting to work and live in the USA. We shall see if I’m correct. He’s European to his core.
New York would be unthinkable. But Chicago is a different case…
NYPO did not like him at all, judging how poorly they played for him.
Muti is also European to his core.
Quite a few European conductors commute to their US posts, including Chicago leaders past and present: Muti, Barenboim, Solti…
That said, Thielemann is no globetrotter. I’d also be surprised if he takes over Chicago, but wouldn’t make any bet.
I had hoped he’d come to Philly to replace Sawallisch, something that looked possible in the late 90s, and still love the disc of Wagner excerpts he made with that orchestra for DG during that period.
He’d be a good pick for Chicago, especially after the Muti years. It would be a refreshing change in repertoire – and interpretive approach, just as Muti was when he replaced Ormandy.
And as a Bruckner lover, I’d look forward to hearing how the CSO sounds playing the symphonies under Thielemann. They sounded great playing 8 and 9 under Giulini, but I would argue less so under Solti and Barenboim, neither of whom I view as great Bruckner conductors.
Solti’s Bruckner was inspired and edge of your seat exciting…Barenboim depended on which symphony he conducted…
Before making or recommending a long term commitment, Chicago should invite Thielemann for a 2 or 3 week stint with varied repertoire. Making a judgement after 1 week conducting Bruckner 8 would be naive at best.
I don’t understand either how orchestras hire a music director on the basis of one great concert. Yet an astonishing number of high profile appointments have happened that way. I can instantly think of Concertgebouw/Chailly (80s), New York/ Maazel/(2000s), Chicago/Muti… There are many other examples.
And there was Nelsons/BSO: Nelsons was openly courted by the press before he had even conducted the BSO. He then stepped in for, well, Levine, at a Carnegie Hall Mahler concert. The NY Times review was lukewarm at best. The Boston Globe wasn’t that positive, but somehow absolved Nelsons of any responsibility. Nelsons could do no wrong for the Boston Globe. Not long thereafter, Nelsons’ appointment was announced.
All true…but Nelsons has done a good job at the BSO. It has worked our well.
That’s an excellent suggestion from Has-been. I think CT is wonderful, especially in the opera house. But the perennial contractual problems are a concern. Maybe he could be persuaded NOT to seek a “permanent” post, but instead undertake an ongoing sequence of guest appearances such as his Chicago Bruckner 8s and his Berlin Staatsoper Rings this month?
As a Brit I would love to hear him more often at Covent Garden AND with one of London’s symphony orchestras. And it would be sad if – after his spat with Katharina – we were never again to hear him at Bayreuth.
“not to seek a permanent post”. You might be right.
Thielemann would make a great Principal Guest Conductor. He’d be an absolutely terrible music director. He has none of the organizational or personal skills needed to run an American Orchestra and work the donor base. And his repertoire is too limited to fill a full season and not repeat the same stuff in the next.
What do you know of his “organizational or personal skills”? You think he ran Bayreuth and dealt with the Wagners, ran Dresden and dealt with the politicians and bureaucrats, ran Salzburg Easter and dealt with all the personalities, all these decades by wishful thinking? With an American orchestra, he actually has a lot more suits working for him and a lot less to do. Raising money in America remains the province of the president and the board, the music director just has to show up with an air of the European maestro and smile a lot.
CT’s habit of causing organziational friction are well documented in Munich and Dresden. And no, the MD job in the US (and especially in Chicago) requires a fair bit more than just showing up and smiling for the donors. Barenboim complained about it constantly. CT might want to check with his friend and mentor before he takes on that task.
Thielemann will wait for a signal from the Berliner Staatsoper before making any commitments.
Who in their right mind would choose Chicago over Berlin if Berlin is clearly in play?
The CSO only sold out half the house for the Bruckner, and Chicago’s two main newspapers don’t even have a classical music critic to review the concert.
As the expression goes: if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it make a noise? If Thielemann conducts in Chicago and no one is around, has the orchestra made a sound?
The year has 52 weeks. Chicago would require about 10 weeks of his presence.
Berlin about 20. Leaves still 22 for a couple of Vienna weeks, one or two as Emeritus in Dresden, and some weeks off. It’s all doable.
If Nelsons can do BSO and Gewandhaus and more, so can CT. (And CT lives in Berlin, Nelsons still has to travel to both Leipzig and Boston…)
As far as Chicago’s attraction vs Berlin Staatsoper goes: American top chief conductor salaries are FAT compared to European ones. Ballpark guesses would be double the money in Chicago for half of the work due in Berlin (so four times for the hour).
Point taken.
A better comparison is: if Dudamel can do LA and Paris Opera, if Welser-Most did (for a while) Cleveland and Vienna State Opera, and locally, if Nezet-Seguin can do Philly and the Met…
Unlike Nelsons, one thing Thielemann has never been criticized for is spreading himself thin.
That’s true, unlike Nelsons, CT never came across as submittimg himself to his agency.
But not unreasonable to speculate, that at this point in his life, a lucrative Chicago deal for 5-8 years might be a sweet topping on the cake in his still energetic 60s, before he winds it down a notch again – now with the money in the bank – in his 70s.
They won’t hire him. He’s too difficult – on-stage and off – and I hear that his political views have rubbed some influential patrons the wrong way.
Maybe 10 or 15 years ago he’d have made sense but not in this current age.
Yes, Thielemann is demanding and difficult. But, if the CSO want to maintain their rank, and given that Gatti – uncomfortably demanding too – is now engaged in Dresden, there is simply no alternative.
“No alternative”? That’s the silliest comment among a plethora of silly comments here.
Notwithstanding that he just took the job at Covent Garden, Hruša’s contract with Bamberg ends soon and he could easily take the CSO as well (Solti also had both of those jobs for a while). The orchestra apparently loved him when he guest conducted.
Andres Orozco-Estrada had a stupendous CSO debut with Mahler 3 a couple of seasons ago and is now available, after his Vienna Symphony job ended. He has left an enviable legacy of youtube performances with the hr-Sinfonieorchester, so he is quite well known to the digital generation.
Either one would be a more promising pick than Thielemann.
CT will conduct Bruckner 8 next March in NY with the VPO. A good opportunity to check his capacity, this time with the best orchestra in the world. I will be here.
That’s not how you check his “capacity”, with Vienna and Bruckner. That works.
You check his capacity with other things, rehearsing an unknown contemporary score with a less familiar orchestra. Or with his presence and comments in a concertmaster/principal audition…
For me it’s Mozart, ideally not with the Vienna Philharmonic.
Sorry, but in addition to somnambulant music making the theme Chicago for Chicagoans just doesn’t have the right ring to it. A much better fit in Austria.
Only after 1 concert? Not the best way to find an MD.
I think Manfred Honeck is a better choice for Chicago audience than CT! Chicagoans need a music leader who can spend more time for the community than Muti did. Also, I believe Honeck’s music making is not worse than Thielemann’s at all, or even better. He is very strong at the core German repertoire such as Beethoven, Brahms and Bruckner.
Honeck definitely is a fine conductor, but not in the same league as Thielemann. And, now 64, he still mimics Carlos Kleiber…
As with every other post regarding the CSO I find the vitriol regarding Riccardo Muti, given how he was once lionized in Philadelphia, remarkable. Save for the blue bloods who lived in the Main Line & Center City, and sat on the board, the public and the orchestra were unanimous in expressing the opinion that he revitalized the PO. I distinctly recall an early 80’s Time Magazine cover article which referred to the PO members as “Muti’s Moonies”, a reference to the Korean cult leader, such was their regard for his leadership. A profile of concertmaster Norman Carol included an emotional account of his meeting with Muti when he was forced to retire due to an injury. At the time the prevailing wisdom was that if the board had committed to leaving the Academy of Music he would have never left. Clearly, a lot has changed in the last 40 years but the contrast in perceptions is palpable.
The times have changed, the man has not.
And therein lies all the problems.
1) Muti has been reliving his Philadelphia glory days in Chicago, replicating faithfully the same programming and interpretations of his younger self.
Some Chicagoans like being served The Best of Muti from the 70s and 80s. Many want to see the CSO move on.
2) His personal opinions did not matter in the 1970s, they do today.
The CSO is turning a willfully blind eye to what Muti has been saying recently in interviews in the Italian and German press. In his latest German interview, he laments that in America, he can no longer say “Oriental” as he wishes, but must say “Asian”. Among the other things reported in the Italian press about his sensitivity to Asians (calling Myung-whun Chung “the Chinese”), I don’t see why the CSO, which is what, 40% Asian, tolerates this man.
People huff and puff about Thielemann’s supposed political conservatism, and alleged anti-semiticism (even though not a single quote is ever cited and obviously Barenboim doesn’t think what he allegedly said was anti-semitic), but it’s nothing compared to the outright meanness that comes directly out of Muti’s mouth when talking freely in Europe and not in the States.
I must be stupid and I apologise in advance for my ignorance. But what’s wrong with ‘oriental’ meaning, literally, Eastern (as opposed to Western/occidental)?
I ask because I can’t really see what’s offensive. If I was in any Asian country and someone called me western/occidental I would definitely not feel offended.
Can someone please explain this to me? As said I don’t mean to offend anybody.
Thank you.
Just to clarify. In italian, the two words (East/Orient) are synonyms. For instance, the region known as Middle-East is called ‘Medio-Oriente’.
Now, far from me to to defend Mr. Muti (which is not the topic of my post), but can someone really explain why ‘oriental’ is, in English (or any other language), offensive? I am just trying to learn. Thanks.
anon,
Would you be so kind to share links to those German and Italian interviews you mention? Some of us speak languages.
Larry managed to discern that it was an excellent performance, a high bar for him. I got a kick out of this excerpt from the review: “The Adagio felt notably spacious even though Thielemann took just 24 minutes, which is faster than many. He conveyed the strange, luminous mystery of the main theme—beautifully refined playing by the first violins, front desks especially…” So he is staring at his watch in the middle of some of the most glorious music in the literature, and presumes to know how individual violins are playing within a section that has a remarkably unified sound. He never ceases to amaze.
Mr. Raimi, just want to say that I enjoyed your pre-concert talk very much. Thank you.
it seems to me you are to Lawrence Johnson what Chicagorat is to Riccardo Muti, you both have some mysterious ax to grind, when neither can possible be as incompetent as you guys are making them out to be…
1) Yes, a music critic is there to take note of and report on many things other than the glory of the music, a rather standard thing that critics do is indeed to time the playing, afterall, that’s more objectively verifiable than simply writing “it seemed to me, though I can’t prove it, that Thielemann conducted the movement faster than others”….
2) And my goodness, there is nothing slanderous about saying that the front desks stood out particularly well, it takes nothing away from violinist in the last row, and afterall, isn’t that why the front desks are up front, because they are the best players? even at the Berlin Philharmonic, where everyone is always sawing away for their lives, the front desks are still noticeably sawing away more than the ones in the back, that’s what the front desks are paid the extra bucks to do up front…
I wonder if Max Raimi’s swipes at Larry Johnson have anything to do with Johnson’s criticism of Raimi’s compositional work earlier this year:
https://chicagoclassicalreview.com/2022/03/a-pair-of-superb-soloists-highlight-glovers-cso-debut/
“I wonder”… LOL! Never mind that Raimi’s employer is bankrolling CCR by buying expensive ads there.
It seems to be payback for Johnson’s describing Raimi’s cadenzas as “awkward.”
https://chicagoclassicalreview.com/2022/03/a-pair-of-superb-soloists-highlight-glovers-cso-debut/
Max, I, too, thought your preconcert was excellent. Actually, the most impactful one that I have ever heard. Thank you very much.
It bored me to death.
Not a fan of him but I must say CSO and CT did a fantastic job this time. Knowing the orchestra and politics of the Windy City, I highly doubt if he would be a good fit and stay for more than one season.
A few questions:
-Would he agree to perform works by mediocre composers pushed by the board (Wokism!).
-Is he OK with daily Nasal tests, frequently getting boosted, wearing mask in the back stage area and all other related policies pushed by CSO sponsors (Pharma companies etc.).
Many years ago orchestra had a chance of hiring Abbado as MD and even though players loved him so much, board made a deal with Barenboim. Unlike BPO or LSO here in Chicago musicians have no real vote on anything!
I guess CSO is going to have guest conductors for a while to save some cash unless Mrs Helen Herzog Fadim Zell makes her mind.
Cheers
Gag me with a spoon !
Often times it’s better to, ‘leave them wanting more’. Meaning that it may be better to bring in Thielemann from time to time as a guest conductor. If he were in Chicago full time, you might be trading one brand of drama for a different brand of drama.
You have a point. On the other hand, these days “full time” means a meager presence of more or less 10 weeks per year, which in other professions would be considered not even part time, more like ‘regular privileged freelancing’.
Being a “chief conductor” these days is mostly about the marketing department being able to print your name on the top.