Whose Brahms – Haitink or Fischer?
NewsI have been glutted with two recorded boxes of Brahms symphonies.
One, by Bernard Haitink and the London Symphony Orchestra, is taken from concerts that I mostly attended in 2003-04. Yet both the recorded sound and the atmosphere seem altered (that’s editing for you).
The other is by Adam Fischer and the Danish Chamber Orchestra – yes, a chamber orchestra plays Brahms symphonies.
I have until Friday to decide which I prefer.
Such a privilege. Such joy.
For me Brahms is more Herbert Blomstedt or/and the Gewandhaus.
Or Paavo and the Kammerphilharmonie Bremen.
For a chamber approach.
Of course you are right. But I don’t forget the history of Brahms with the Gewandhaus and Brahms is the most important compositor for Blomstedt. I have to say also that I kept a special place for the memory of the Brahms concert Blomstedt did last year i had chance to see.
The finest Brahms recordings I’ve heard are with Kurt
Sanderling and Staatskapelle Dresden.
Absolutely and without question!!
For me, Szell/Cleveland; among more modern recordings, Adam’s brother Ivan and the BFO.
De gustibus…
Did Szell ever did a bad record? Well in fact no. Impossible.
Yes, there are a few not so hot Szell recordings, including Mahler 6 and Janacek Sinfonietta.
I would not include those 2 as bad recordings. I am disappointed in his recordings of the Mozart Clarinet Concerto (until the 3rd movement) and Sinfonia Concertante despite stellar playing by Messrs Marcellus, Druian and Skernick. IMO these are examples of Szell crossing the line, which he acknowledged needed to be avoided, into pedantic playing that results in a lifeless performance.
Lyn Harrell said the szell recordings were not very good. And he played
In the orchestra. I went to a talk that
Harrell gave pre concert. He said szell wanted to break his cello. But he
Said he was a fantastic conductor.
Szell wanted to break his cello early in his tenure with TCO. Supposedly he asked him to remain after a rehearsal and while Harrell was still seated grasped his right hand and tentatively moved his bow across the strings to indicate how uninvolved his playing was. Although outraged he acknowledged that Szell was correct and afterward gave numerous superb performances. I’ve heard that concertmaster Druian frequently criticized his playing.
I heard szell in London with the Cleveland orchestra. He did Haydn symphony no 88. Having been going
To concerts for 61 years. That was
One of the best performances i have
Ever seen.
A performance from 1954:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2tHhNF_WuA
There are so many good recordings. My favorites are Günter Wand and the NDR Philharmonic and Leonard Bernstein and the VPO.
Thank you for reminding me of the excellent, stirring Brahms of Gunter Wand. However, you can keep your Bernstein. Unsubtle and unrefined.
I fully agree with your opinion!
At some point, I’d be interested in someone comparing live vs. studio recordings by the same conductor and orchestra. The number of variables can obviously be large but invariably I find the former preferable.
Here’s a question: are you going to go back to the score and what it actually says in forming your preference? If so, I reckon you’d be a rarity among critics, who seem to prize “interpretation” and “imagination” above actual fidelity to the score. I’m referring here to such things as the unwritten slowing up for the chorale restatement at the end of the first. I may have heard one performance that didn’t do it, but very few recordings I’ve heard don’t run into a quagmire at this point. (Maybe somebody out there knows one that doesn’t?)
James Levine (CSO) doesn’t. Haven’t heard the BPO version.
Thank you kindly for your suggestion. Unfortunately that’s a conductor for whom I have no space on my shelves, probably unfairly in view of some others’ behaviour.
Have you heard Haitink’s set with the Boston Symphony? I think they are unfairly neglected.
Good remark, in fact what Haitink did in Boston is mostly not very famous in Europe.
Well, they’re neglected fairly because while they are literate and musical, grey do not incandesce. They rarely rise above the pedestrian, metronomic interpretations that they are, along with almost everything Haitink touched save for Strauss and Shostakovich, which benefitted from his extensive surgical pruning.
I personally would not choose either for Brahms. I would select Kurt Masur of recent memory, Eugen Jochum of post war past.
You can add the other Fischer, Ivan- who’s Brahms cycle will be released together next month on Chanel Classics. I have not yet heard the new Adam Fischer Cycle – my prime recommendations for complete cycles would still be Klemperer, Walter (second, Columbia) and among digital recording the BPOAbbado- one of his greatest recordings. I am less impressed by the new Blomstedt- I like the Second very much but the rest is relatively boring
For me , Klemperer is especially supreme in Symphonies 1 and 4: he has such dramatic empathetic gravitas that stirs and moves in a special way like no other.
I was remarking to a friend recently about the high quality Brahms symphony recordings being released: Pittsburgh, Boston, Scottish Chamber, Berlin Staatskapelle…just seems there is no end to fantastic listening opportunities. Looking forward to hearing Fisher and Haitink, too.
Why not a chamber orchestra? Charles Mackerras made a terrific set of Brahms symphonies with the Scottish National Orchesta; it’s superb start to finish. I just wonder why anyone thinks the world needs yet another Brahms set, or two.
Mackerras cycle is with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra with which he had a regular association. He rarely worked with the Scottish National.
Same reason every other major composer’s works are recorded again and again. No performance can ever express every nuance, every emotion, every telling detail, every angle of interpretation, of a musical masterpiece. There is always something a bit different or new to add. In a way, they are inexhaustible, like a great novel. No performance can capture it all. Plus, opinions of what is “authentic” are always being revised. Also, people keep buying them, so labels will keep trying to please. You can’t just listen to Reiner and Karajan forever.
How about Otto Klemperer’s interpretation? I like his conducting.
As you prepare your review, I would like to suggest a few alternates for sake of comparison out of the many you, I’m presuming, know. I am impressed with Marin Alsop’s cycle on Naxos. It’s overlooked and underrated. Tennstedt has a fine first on EMI. And Colin Davis with the Bavarian Radio Symphony on RCA. Quite worthwhile. All ratings come down to comparison, and these are good yardsticks.
The way Brahms assimilated the music of his mentor, Robert Schumann, there forever remaining an imprint, however subtle or bold, recalls the relationship between Lee Konitz and his actual teacher, Lennie Tristano. I’ll never forget how Lee’s friend, Leonard Bernstein, whose show, West Side Story, he was the specific jazz inspiration for, spent at least an hour just focusing on how to best give the opening cue for the first movement of Symphony No.1 by Brahms during a Tanglewood conducting class. Bernstein believed this opening motion must be made with full knowledge of the entirety of the complete work.
http://azuremilesrecords.com/exemplarskonitztristano.html
Haitink is probably my favorite conductor besides Von Karajan & Solti. Always a fresh and lively interpretation no matter the repertoire. Miss him dearly.
You have such a delectable problem in front of you. Best wishes on your selection.
May I recommend Bruno Walter’s Brahms? Or is that out of the question?
Bravo! Especially his No. 3.
Carlo Maria Giulini and the Philharmonia.
Haitink or Fischer ?
For me, Haitink. But I would like to hear Brahms played by s Chamber Orchestra.
Or even a piano transcription.!
I always read you Norman.
Keep it coming.
I am an elderly listener – born 1933.
Try Scottish chamber orchestra with Ticciati – very good modern recording.
Bests:
1st Symphony: Thielemann
2nd: Furtwängler
3rd: Chailly
4th: ?!
4th: Maestro Giulini, Chicago Symphony Orchestra
LSO, Neeme Järvi
You’re absolutely right – you really don’t like Brahms.
It would be terrific if some AI would write a Brahms Fifth. OR, if some wealthy fan would commission someone to take a Brahms chamber piece and do what Schoenberg did, make it into a Brahms Symphony. How long can we stricken souls suck at these 4 splendid wellsprings over and over again?
If you don’t happen to know them, don’t forget the two early serenades, both symphonic in scale, and quite wonderful for those who can’t get enough Brahms. I recommend the Istvan Kertesz recordings. You are also among many who feel that at least half of Brahms’ chamber works are of symphonic weight and could be very suitable for orchestration. Anyone want to volunteer?
Why has it to be either or?…Music is about pluralism! There are many ways to play it…Enjoy both!!!!Both are great….I love Mackerras`cycle with the SCO too,refreshingly removed from the bombast of many older recordings….I recently attended two concerts of Brahms with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe under YNZ….Fantastic in every way!!! Similiar in some ways to Mackerras( the beginning of the 1st in 2 instead of ponderous 6 is a relevation!),but richer in detail,stunningly played .I hope there will be a recording of it.
The COE website says there will:
https://www.coeurope.org/coe-concerts/coe-projects-list/brahms-cycle-with-yannick-nezet-seguin/
I would go for Young Haitink and the Concertgebouw for Brahms, if that’s who I wanted in control. The sound on those LSO concert discs is often boxy and disconcertingly small. For chamber Brahms, I wouldn’t go anywhere. Why miniaturize four of the most maximal symphonies ever written? With Klemperer, Solti, Jochum, Walter, Levine, Jansons (#1 on Simax), and Giulini (#4 on EMI) still available and sounding amazing, who needs Brahms-Lite?
1) Orchestras in the times of Brahms WERE chamber orchestras.
2) “I mostly attended in 2003-04. Yet both the recorded sound and the atmosphere seem altered (that’s editing for you).”
No offense, but technologically speaking, the human brain is more likely to be less reliable than a recording however edited. What IS an aural memory of something 19 years ago especially as we age?
Maybe you are painfully right. However, computers can’t appreciate music. My defficient memory is my treasure.
Unfortunately I find the Brahms cycle Haitink made with the LSO not that great, compared to the early Concertgebouw and the Boston cycle from the nineties. The latter is unjustly neglected. It’s a gem. I also love the Brahms symphonies Haitink did with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe; they’re on youtube.
As always, I’m going with Maestro Abbado.
And the winner is Blomstedt with Gewandhaus, I suppose?
All pieced together anyhow, unlike Brahms 2 at the Proms tonight with dear Zubin Mehta somewhat now infirm but well able to conduct the Australian World Orchestra, plus the Webern Passacaglia.
1, Klemperer
2, Giulini (Los Angeles)
3, Klemperer
4, Blomstedt
How come nobody mentions Carlos Kleiber’s Brahms IV? It’s absolutely astonishing!
I’m always astonished by how seasick I feel at the start of the third movement, thanks to his misreading of the accentuation.
Karajan, Kleiber, Klemperer, Toscanini, Furtwängler depending on my mood.
And Bruno Walter of course. My first set of the symphonies.
Pedro: Growing up, if we want to go into the time machine, I kind of remember we had the Maurice Abravanel set on Vanguard with the Utah Symphony. Our first family set. It was actually pretty outstanding. That was (is) a far better orchestra than quite a few more well known contenders.