The new Jackie Evancho: how far has she come?
UncategorizedMany readers will know that the world is divided between those who find the American talent show star angelic and above mortal criticism, and those who dissent from that view.
Slipped Disc has been urged several times to guillotine the irresoluble discussion, but there have been developments on the Evancho front and her new album, out September 23, is neither cutesie nor cloying. We are assured that, unlike many adult pop albums, it was made without the benefit of Autotune.
Here’s a preview.
A double whammy from the corporate world-Jackie Evancho covering U2.
Weird monotone. Everything sound the same. Where is the octave range? I wouldn’t spend a dime on this boring whatever you call it. Strange sound, haunting, but not world class talent.
You are 1000 per cent correct.
As the sample video demonstrates, Jackie Evancho has transcended beyond even her prior stellar accomplishments as a vocal artist. To consider Jackie as “The Voice” may seem hyperbolic to some, but consider not only the upcoming release of her “Awakening” CD next week and accompanying “PBS Great Performances Special” this December, but also the overwhelming and growing response to Jackie’s classical style over the past four years. As Jackie grows, so does her gift. Those of us who consider Jackie Evancho as “The Voice” of the 21st century are growing at an exponential rate. If this music sample or her CD when it releases doesn’t convince those few remaining detractors, experiencing a live Jackie performance most certainly will.
Hello Norman,
I enjoy your blog.
The majority of Jackie’s fans most certainly do not consider her angelic and above mortal criticism. Instead, most fans (and I am one of them) are astounded that an otherwise normal middle class American girl from Pittsburgh, gifted with a voice that brings us joy and even hope, has chosen to follow her dream to become a great singer with a determination and self belief that most of us lost long ago.
She is pursuing her dream while remaining true to herself and the music that inspires her, not through the pursuit of rapid riches through the shallow and fickle popular music industry, nor through operatic training, which she continually reminds the media is not her genre, and which she believes does not suit her voice.
Such integrity should be applauded. It is a source of innovation and unique contribution. She is a Classical Crossover singer, and is exploring the boundaries of her capabilities and inclinations, and experimenting with different styles of music. This despite being mostly ignored by the popular end of the spectrum, and derided by a (small minority) of the other.
Yes, some of us call her The Voice, and from within the context of her fan base that is defensible. When discussing her in the broader arena, perhaps we should qualify that. Jackie is Our voice. A voice that provides the beauty and inspiration that we need to face another day in this mostly sad world, yet accessible to us.
Criticizing Jackie’s technique is a valid activity (and you will find much respectful criticism and analysis of her choices and performances on her own fan forums), but it misses the point. What she gives us goes beyond the mechanics of the language of music.
The message that is conveyed through the enabler of language is more important. My English teacher seemed to know every quirk of the language, every historical nuance in the evolution of the apostrophe, but never wrote a best seller.
The message that Jackie conveys, through her voice and presentation, restores a feeling of awe and hope to thousands. I don’t know how she does it, but it is real.
It is for that reason that out of hand denial of her gift, of dismissal on the grounds of technical parameters, is taken by some not as a difference of opinion about musical taste or standards, but as an attack on things that are valued, and in some cases as an attack on hope itself.
I could not have said it better or as eloquently as you have. BRAVO!
Well said! There is nothing I can add to your brilliant eloquence except to say that Jackie’s voice has improved greatly over the past two years of her hiatus. Almost otherworldly.
The only thing that I can say about Jackie”s singing voice are two things, yes she keeps on getting better with a Rounder and Fuller sound to her whole presentation which just makes me melt inside. Where ever I am at any time and when I need to have a dose of therily in the to of “a pick me up” all that I need to do is to find any of her pices of music with her way of singing, and instentley there can be nothing wrong inside of me.
I do not know what it is nor how it works, but all that I can say ftom the sound of her voice is that it does work.
Not new at all, as evidence the recent “Somewhere Over the Rainbow” and “Think of Me” both performed in public, the latter on America’s Got Talent. The repertoire might be new but they way of approaching it has been consistently the same.
The fans go for that murky sultry sound in the lower middle range which to me is debatable for an over the cusp teenager, in other words not very natural. At the other end are floaty high notes that in my opinion are more in Jackie’s Fach.
After listening to her over 4 years, her speaking voice and stature also as clues, I believe that she is a high, light soprano, possibly coloratura. The best direction I think for her to go to is what her fans hate the most, OPERA!!!
You might be right. As she matures and gains knowledge, she may find her current work boring and find opera interesting and challenging. You have an unlikely ally in that thought. David Foster has stated on several occasions that opera is the direction she should go.
Michael,
David Foster never said she should go in the direction of opera. He said that if she chose to go down that road he had no doubt she would be one of the best opera singers in history.
I thought the David Foster quote sounded a bit off. After all, wasn’t he the one playing the electric piano while she was emoting Ombra Mai Fu at the age of 11? Also there was a clip of him with her doing O mio Babbino. At any rate, judging by these two instances I would not take such superlatives seriously.
My opinion is that she would not be a new Flagstad, Nilsson, Callas or Sutherland. She could aspire to do the soubrette and coloratura repertoire, occasionally branching out from that, following the lead of Dessay, Pons, Streich and even Battle whom she copied twice already. There are only a few sopranos in the world who can sing the Queen of the Night at any given time, so a career is guaranteed whoever has usuable notes over the staff, not just a crowning high note at the end of an aria. My advice would be, stop immediately all pretensions for singing medium to low repertoire and develop the higher range.
cabbagejuice, hope this helps you out, David Foster is one of the three people in this clip, not the vocalist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSU7XWyuy7A
Knightly, Your quoted Dark Waltz has a remarkable similarity to Westenra. Even the floated high notes are approximately the same length. PS, as with Battle and Rossum, they were the first to do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gl8ylw4INo
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 17, 2014 at 1:19 pm
Knightly, Your quoted Dark Waltz has a remarkable similarity to Westenra. Even the floated high notes are approximately the same length. PS, as with Battle and Rossum, they were the first to do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gl8ylw4INo
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=40067#respond
cabbagejuice
And as with Battle and Rossum, earlier does not mean better, I prefer Jackie’s rendition to Westenra’s.
Actually, I feel that is her best feature is her mellow timbre in the lower range that gives her the uniqueness that sets her above the rest. I still feel she is a Mezzo-Soprano with a range of two and half octave having a heavier, darker tone than sopranos. The mezzo-soprano voice resonates in a higher range than that of a contralto, in that I haven’t seen from anyone else living or dead. Some women sopranos sing in a way that sounds like squeaking on a chalkboard…I can’t stand to listen to. Jackie’s voice is so smooth and mellow, it sooths the savage beast or man.
Edward, I don’t know what your professional qualifications for deterimining a fach of a singer, but like a doctor who has seen hundreds, if not more, patients, a voice teacher would know how things go just by virtue of being around so many “patients”. This includes of being in the act of singing oneself, having survived wrong opinions of teachers who would have placed me higher or lower, accompanying, singing in choirs and screening choir members as for voice type. Also I happen to have a very good ear, period, and it doesn’t take me long to figure out from the first hearing. The only unclear cases are unsettled young male voices who may be tenor or baritone but even that is solved within a short time.
Someone mentioned back then that Jackie is a “talented mimic”. This is not to depreciate what she does or others like her since children learn from imitation. The main thing is to disabuse them early on from copying their favorite singers and develop their OWN natural qualities. I once had a Korean student whose teacher was trying to turn her into another Sumi Jo over 8 years. This never happened and when I lowered her repertoire down a third it was like putting on the right shoes or gloves for the first time.
The murky tone Jackie has been using does not come from a free production but a tight and often trembling jaw holding the breath rather than releasing it, the reason for lack of sustaing tones in that area. This sound is not joined up to the rest of the scale that should have been done by now as seen in the 13 year old Patricia Janescova who sings properly and improves all the time. The high notes that she produces come at the expense of straining her neck and there is vocal terminology for that undifferentiated vowel sound: “hooty”. Sorry, but she evidently was not trained to produce pure vowels which is an absolute requirement to sing the Vocalise of Rachmaninoff: “aah”, not “uuh”.
Speaking voice is a clue among many and it doesn’t really matter if Maria Callas CHOSE to speak in her chest voice or that Dessay’s speaking voice these days is breathy. Those are adults contrasted to young people’s speaking voices that are not made up as their singing voices might be as in speech they are being used unself-consciously all the time.
My professional opinion is that Jackie is a natural light soprano with the possibility of doing that type of repertoire, in the direction of possible coloratura. You fans don’t want to hear but she is probably more suited to snotty opera. As for soothing the male beast, I would sure hope that these are precisely not the type of listeners she or her family would like to attract.
She was 10 years old when she recorded Dream With Me which had Ombra Mai Fu as one of the songs.
CJ, I’m curious to know what emotions, what feeling Jackie conveys to you when you listen to her sing.
In answer to your question, music for me is not only an emotional activity but an intellectual one. The latter doesn’t detract from the former in any way, instead it enhances it. I rediscovered Michael Crawford over the past couple days following links from the well known Phantom of the Opera.
While not having the most luscious baritone (neither did Fischer-Dieskau for that matter) his delivery of the songs is exceptional. As singing is a kind of storytelling, every word is spot on. He subordinates himself to the communication of the text and in turn his own voice is enhanced by the colors that the words conjure up. Maria Callas also used her voice in service of the text and character she was playing. That is why the tiniest inflections of hers are so exciting. This is the artistry and magic of singing, not handwringing melancholic emoting.
If I have to strain to hear the text, that is a big X. Unnecessary head and arm movements are distractions, not to mention unsolved vocal problems. And as for text, breathing is subordinate to that. A singer can’t just breathe anywhere as after a preposition that spoils the line textually and musically.
I hold up as an example of the best version of Think of Me by Emmy Rossum. I don’t know about how much was prerecorded or maniuplated behind the scenes but the simplicity is endearing, her standing still with a smile. There is a continuous unbroken vocal line with every note and word crystal clear
The feelings or emotion as you put it, are transient but a work of art even after the performance is over leaves a more lasting impression and satisfaction.
CJ, I understand all that and can certainly relate on an intellectual basis, but actually all you just told me was about what emotion and intellectual activity means to you. What I want to know is not a comparative analysis of other artists or qualitative inspiration, but simply what you feel, and what emotions you experience when you are listening to Jackie sing. The kind you experience when you are in an undistracted environment, (headphones on, eyes closed, etc.).
Stephen, I really don’t know how to answer your question but I’ll try. Timbre and passion seems to be the most endearing qualities for her fans. Not to be facetious, but they are exactly what make an audience and judges gasp and rise for booming tenors and crowning high notes by sopranos on AGT, BGT or any talent show anywhere in the world. And they don’t necessarily have to have the looks as demonstrated by Susan Boyle but a backstory is always useful.
A beautiful sound is important for me but not all good singers have excellent quality to begin with. In fact, Maria Callas aptly said, a good voice is not enough. It is what you do with it, the power of communication but not the intent. The intent is behind the scenes or should be. Instead, popular singers are displaying the intention, or rather do the emoting in front of you, how much they are feeling the music and communicate that rather than the actual music and text. Strangely enough some classical singers struck me as having that quality. I didn’t like much of Beverly Sills for that reason. Her bubbly enthusiasm when she was singing for me got in the way a lot of the time.
Specifically to answer your question, I hear talent, loads of it, and passion, too, but I don’t hear polish that should be there in the repertoire she is singing in public. I don’t really care what can be concocted in a studio, said that before.
It’s really all too early to be doing what she has embarked on now despite the will, passion, ambition and talent. All of the preceding need to be controlled and channeled.
CJ, there is an aspect to Asperger’s that denies people a sense of empathy. My question asking how you feel when you listen to Jackie sing was to see if you have the ability to react emotionally with music, as most people do. From your responses to my question, I see your reactions to Jackie’s singing now in a different light. Your lack of empathy to music forces you to interpret music in a detached, outside perspective. Because of this you could never be a fan of any singer. I now understand why you cannot appreciate Jackie Evancho at an emotional level as we do. How you appreciate music is very different and more technically precise than most can recognize. Please understand that those of us who can feel the emotion in the music in relation to Jackie singing recognize just how incredible Jackie Evancho really is. Although you cannot relate to, or recognize the significance of just how pure and special a talent Jackie personifies, I hope you can understand from the reactions of others to Jackie that she really is an incredibly true talent.
Stephen, that’s a real joke, your telling me I lack empathy for music, what rot! I am sorry I gave you the benefit of the doubt and actually tried to answer your question in a civil manner. You instead comeback that I have Aspergers because I am not able to be manipulated emotionally by what I feel and know for that matter are tricks to induce a state of empathy. Some of them are having a melancholic demeanor, in fact, go to any of Brightman’s or Shapllin’s videos where you can see the same prestidigitation and conjuring up of emotion.
On the AGT page I tried to tell one of the fans that the poor girl is straining for air when she was jerking her head everytime and she countered that the feeling is doing it. Fine! But someone who knows the ropes, is aware of all the big and little ways a performer, actor, speaker for that matter can lead an audience.
I like my music straight, Somewhere Over the Rainbow sung by Judy Garland without all the manipulations of sound or facial expression, the same with Emmy Rossum in Think of Me who lets the music itself speak through herself rather than wring the last drop of schmaltz from it.
I as a few others have also noted, can’t get over the appalling nasty behavior of many of Jackie’s fans. I have my own theory why this is so but won’t go into it now as I have better things to do. You don’t need to answer this because I have really been insulted by you and will not respond in kind.
You really will go to any lengths to insult cabbagejuice, won’t you? Aspergers (although it is not a shameful thing to have Aspergers, I know that you meant it as an insult. I’ve read all of those undeserved diatribes against Tim Page.), lack of ability to react emotionally to music? You owe cabbagejuice a very big apology. How dare you talk to anyone that way, let alone an educated and experienced vocal professional?
CJ, I realize I don’t have to respond to you, but I will anyway. Lacking empathy as you do for music is no different in simile than a blind person lacking an understanding for color. Taking such a defensive attitude and insult is just as unnecessary. As you can tell if you review your responses, they all surround a technical perspective and lack all first-person reference to your own experience. I am not your enemy, and neither is anyone else here. The negative responses to you stem from your lack of understanding and acceptance of your lack of empathy to not only Jackie and her music, but to everyone here and various YT videos. I have asked you several times in the past to attend a live Jackie Evancho Performance. There you will have the best opportunity to experience what the rest of us experience, and see and meet those of us “enraptured” by that experience. Then you might better understand our perspective. I for one would enjoy meeting you and witnessing your true reaction to a live Jackie Performance. In the meantime, I hope you take the opportunity to find a quiet place and time to listen to the full “Awakening” CD now available to you on Amazon.
Stephen, you have a bloody nerve to write “Lacking empathy as you do for music is no different in simile than a blind person lacking an understanding for color.”
You asked for it and now you are going to get it. What YOU and you other mainly elderly friends are reacting to is cheap emotional schmaltz, no different from Brightman, Shapplin, Clayderman, Divo, etc., piling it on. If according to you, I am empathy deficient, so is a large swathe of the population below 55 years old who don’t go to her concerts and buy her CD’s, nor the rest of the childish paraphenalia for born again teenagers. What I heard from the CD is the same over emoting that you musically challenged goofballs lap up.
This has a long history by now more than 4 or so years, the same melancholic expression, the arm wringing, the head jerking to disguise any real or normal musical interpretation. Even though the idea makes me cringe, I heard some of Amira’s recent album doing the Ode to the Moon. Though it is still too early for her to attempt such repertoire she is not schmaltzing it up. You can understand the words even if a bit accented and her vocal line is not split apart from an oily bottom to a hooty top. The latter is just what you get in Jackie’s Vocalise. In trade talk we call it an undifferentiated vowel, something like the schwa in phonetics. Amira sings pure vowels as it looks like she was taught something. Jackie’s Ave Maria is just uuh, uuh.
Musically, practically everything is subordinated to get the maximum emotional effect that her fans just lap up at the expense of the music and text.
The Vocalise is a big joke because someone told her, or didn’t correct her perception that it is just a bunch of la-la-las strung together. Hello! There are long lines there. Her conductor, or soon to be former one, could have corrected her. Who knows, maybe he tried to inject some authentic musicality in it and possibly rejected?
Then there are the freely copied Dormi Jesu and Think of Me, the latter when done in public was a vocal disaster. I don’t need to subject myself to see how one can distort vocal technique on the stage.
Which brings us back to the point WHY you people are so “enraptured”. Well, one reason is as you would see your grandchildren on the stage. But that doesn’t explain the utter ugliness and vileness that comes out when you people are crossed in any way. You can’t bear disagreement, you have to sling mud or call the critic psychologically disturbed. Aha! Now we are getting somewhere – “projection”. You people are addle-brained. Judging by the visceral responses, the fixations on her physical presence, there is a strong element of pedophilia as well, also pointed out by others. I don’t know how a family can stand back and not do anything about it but instead pander to this age group. Ugh!
Sorry CJ, but one of the reasons I want you to attend a Jackie concert is to put to rest one of your fantasies that Jackie’s concerts are filled with old men. Granted, there are a few senior front row groupies that follow her everywhere she goes and certainly embarrass Jackie and the rest of her fans, but that is only a few that infect a very diverse audience, and team Jackie will no doubt soon rectify that embarrassment. You anger, denial, and lashing out to me is understandable, and I am truly saddened by your response. But again I must point out that you are still responding to a perspective that is unable to understand what “feeling the music” is all about. What you recognize as cheap emotional schmaltz is in reality a very real emotional connection to the music we are listening to. I wish there was something I could say that could make you understand that, but again I have to try and convince you to attend a Jackie concert and experience first-hand what we fans, of all ages, experience.
Stephen, don’t patronize me by saying you’re saddened. You already said I have Aspergers and comparable to a blind person who can’t recognize color. It has already been demonstrated and proven that the largest swathe of Jackie Fans are over 45. So isn’t it logical that they are the ones, particularly the retired, who have the money and leisure to flock to her concerts?
Conceivably this was a worry at Longwood as they seated the relatively few young people in the front rows to make it seem like for TV there was a diverse mix of ages which it wasn’t.
I would not go to a Jackie concert even if someone paid me, unless she improves considerably. That won’t be for a long time, if ever, as it seems certain choices have been made to keep on this train. Hopefully it won’t crash.
CJ, Asperger’s is a nothing to be ashamed of, neither is your inability to empathize with music. How you compensate your condition with such imaginary statements as: “Demonstrated and proven that the largest swathe of Jackie Fans are over 45” is what saddens me. Demonstrated? How? Proven? By whom? A swathe?
If I were to patronize you I really wouldn’t take the time or effort to convince you that there is more to music and Jackie than you are willing to give credit. Refusing to accept that and applying your denials in refusing to attend a Jackie Evancho concert performance is as silly as refusing to accept a freely given gold bar because you are not quite pleased by the color, and will only consider accepting this extremely valuable and precious gold bar if someone other than you, can convince you, that the gold bar has indeed improved its color to please you enough to accept this freely given gold bar.
Jackie has given such joy and enlightenment to millions of people around the world with her voice. Like the allegory of the gold bar, Jackie freely gives her gift to those willing to listen. Refusing to accept her gift only leaves you alone with your false principles based on a false premise that leads you to contempt for Jackie, her fans; all because you can’t allow yourself to accept you have a condition that hasn’t permitted you to empathize with music.
Stephen, you people have a habit of throwing around psychobabble. Imagine, all these years no one ever suspected Aspergers! You don’t know me and just because I am not gaga over cheap maudlin emoting, you deign to pronounce diagnoses. I hope that you are not really a therapist because what you know of psychology is just about what you know of music – squat!
There was a poll taken in Amazon more than a year ago and shows a much higher percentage of men. This can be looked up:
“’How Old are Jackie’s Fans?’ Demographics… AGE 65 or above 6% of these 80% male 20% female AGE 55-64 37% of these 70% male 30% female AGE 45-54 31% of these 70% male 30% female AGE 35-44 11% of these 65% male 35% female.” BTW, a Lewiston poster said that about only 35% were under 50 at her concert, conceivably even less at Longwood Gardens.
As for someone offering me a gold bar, how ’bout my selling you the Brooklyn Bridge!
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 17, 2014 at 1:57 pm
This can be looked up:
“’How Old are Jackie’s Fans?’ Demographics… AGE 65 or above 6% of these 80% male 20% female AGE 55-64 37% of these 70% male 30% female AGE 45-54 31% of these 70% male 30% female AGE 35-44 11% of these 65% male 35% female.”
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=40215#respond
cabbagejuice all you have to offer are your OTT obsessive delusions and lies. Like this one you are trying to scam people with, based on out of date and faulty information. You knew it was garbage but it suited your agenda.
I know you are not interested but this link will provide FACTS.
This information is provided by a firm that is the industry leader the field of researching and compiling demographics.
http://beluga.grooveshark.com/artist_report.php?artist_name=Jackie+Evancho#!demographicsTab
Amazon poll, CJ? Haha. As for a qualifier I have had a lifetime of experience understanding Asperger’s with family members and others. You’re correct; I don’t know you personally, but I know what I see in you from your reaction to Jackie and music in general. Again, I am not your enemy. My only motive and intention is to help you understand why you view music from only the outside in a cold, clinical manner and why the rest of us are so enraptured by Jackie’s voice.
A lifetime of experience with Asperger’s has not led you to the realization that it is poor form to DSM people over the internet. Stephen, with all due respect, that was a nasty series of posts.
I cannot imagine a more transparent (and by 2014, passé) way of baiting and patronizing someone, as you have done with cabbagejuice. Essentially, “Oh, it’s nothing to be ASHAMED of. I now understand it’s your DISORDER. I’ve figured out now why you have this other view, so you can be marginalized.” The only thing worse would have been if you had added that now you will pray for her.
Also, now directly quoting, “My only motive and intention is to help you understand why you view music from only the outside in a cold, clinical manner and why the rest of us are so enraptured by Jackie’s voice.” Setting aside that CJ has not solicited your help, “the rest of us” means what, the human race? Just everyone who listens to music? That’s a very bold claim of universal appeal to make about any performer or recording artist, unless “the rest of us” just means the few fans of hers who still show up in the comments section of Slipped Disc when her name appears.
I will give you another view. To me, a voice is a tool. Hardly a day goes by in which I do not listen to singing voices, some extravagantly beautiful, some less so. When that goes on for a period of years, one stops being so knocked out by raw material. I am more interested in the shapes that are created with that tool, or put another way, the stories that can be told with it (in any kind of music), because this is artistry rather than endowment. But even in discussions of artistry, I don’t gush all that much, because there is a lot to appreciate.
I can confidently state to you that there is no one on this planet who is going to appear on any televised talent show and make me act the way the people in the audiences of those shows act. My eyes do not well with tears; my jaw does not drop, etc., even when I’m sincerely impressed.
When I hear people talking about crying, or feeling healed by someone’s singing, it does not mean much to me. I’m happy for them, I guess, but it isn’t something that shapes my own impressions. And I want to tell you, this is nothing unique to Jackie Evancho. Some opera buffs acted/still act the same way over Renata Tebaldi (and others), and I don’t get it then either. To me, all of that is just cult-speak (likewise the wave-form analysis, or whatever it was, that someone did to explain “the Jackie effect”). There are things that can be written about Renata Tebaldi and Jackie Evancho that I take seriously, but when it gets to the level of their sounds providing balm to someone’s soul, I’m just checking out.
Yes Addison,
Your prespective hasn’t changed much since the last time you posted on one of the Jackie topics on this forum.
I think I saw a You Tube video of one of yoru recitals. I could be wrong so you can correct me if I am and I hope i am because… Well ’nuff said !
Whatever you watched on YouTube could not have been me giving a recital, but I am sorry it was a bad experience.
As for perspectives not changing, I doubt I’m alone in repeating myself.
AJ\LuC4
Can you post a link to the video you’re referring to so we can see what you’re talking about?
Well, my emotions when I hear Jackie’s voice are wide ranging. I am always thrilled to hear her for one. She has never failed to make an impression on me, for one. Some songs she does calms me when I am in a nasty mood. Others get me to chuckling. Others, well, are so moving and powerful that I am literally in tears. She is simply an amazing kid with a wide open path still.
It’s not to say that I have scratched my head over some of the songs she does and wondered why, though. But, I have to respect her choices regardless.
The nicest thing that cj says throughout the entire post. Thank you
I have been following your postings, more or less, for about 3 years. You speak with such authority on various aspects of singing, opera, etc and especially as it might reflect poorly on Jackie. I have asked before, and any reasonable person would do the same, WHY DON’T YOU HAVE THE BACKBONE TO GIVE US YOUR REAL NAME, YOUR OBVIOUSLY EXTENSIVE TRAINING LIST, YOUR PROFESSIONAL WORK EXPERIENCE??? You ask a lot of us to trust your opinions when you give us nothing to work with.
[redacted: abuse]
Gosh, I thought this thread was dead, just got a notice in my inbox. Robbie, please refer to Janine Brown’s post of two days ago.
A person can say the world is round without being a geographer, astronomer, or astronaut. No need for peer reviewed studies either.
If you dispute any of the facts about singing, you are entitled to it. No one said you need a degree in musicology for that.
However those in the profession would be more likely to know how things go. And really, performing by now demanding repertoire in concerts without formal training is just foolhardy. Choices were made to stick to a certain formula that unfortunately is appealing to an ever diminishing age group, small to begin with.
The recent cancelled two concerts are plenty evidence of let’s say, errors in judgement? If there is illness that affects the vocal cords, a good teacher would also stand with a flaming sword to the entrance to the green room – no go!
There are definitely risks for that kind of straining, but hey, there are 6 other mouths to feed in that household!
Wow, I just got an alert that there is a new comment on a thread almost a year old! Not a reflection so much on the subject, but on the fans who never give up!
I wonder how many of the middle-aged men that are Evancho’s fan base will stick with her as she gets older and either her voice goes or the pressures of fame take their toll. Should be interesting.
Brian,
I would expect that it would be no different than fans of any other artist.
Err… don’t you mean females? http://beluga.grooveshark.com/artist_report.php?artist_name=Jackie+Evancho#!demographicsTab
Men and women over 45 together have the largest representation, with men being slightly lower. In general, though, it is the guys on pensions who monitor the Jackie sites, beat down critics with often sanctimonious comments like saying something against her is an “attack on hope itself” (!) and who flock to her concerts with their Jackie paraphrenalia, tee-shirts, golf caps, etc.
Completely agree.
Hi Micheal and CJ, Whether one likes or doesn’t like Evancho, for this that or the other reason, I still think it is Nice to hear her pleasant singing, when I’m in the mood for her type of singing. It’s a pretty nasty world out there, so ‘nice’ is a pleasant change.
Nothing wrong with Nice. The problem is whether this child star business in the way it has been conducted is ultimately good for her. And even if she is having a good time doing it, she can’t be the one to decide due to her young age and inexperience whether it is or not. Accumulated wisdom should be consulted.
CJ,
Absolutely agree with your comment except “santimonious”. I would classify that part as “sincere, heartfelt and truthful comments” 🙂
Zamyrabies/juicelady…Jackie is not a child any more. Get that through your Alzheimer’s-addled brain.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 14, 2014 at 5:57 pm
Nothing wrong with Nice. The problem is whether this child star business in the way it has been conducted is ultimately good for her. And even if she is having a good time doing it, she can’t be the one to decide due to her young age and inexperience whether it is or not. Accumulated wisdom should be consulted.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=39784#respond
cabbagejuice her parents reached out to many professionals to access their accumulated wisdom, starting when she was 8 years old and first showed signs of how special her gift was. And they have never stopped seeking profession advice.
JJ, so where is evidence of professional guidance? You can ask for advice and not take it as well. One can go only so far on instinct and imitation, even the best of talents.
She would be so much easier to listen to if you could understand what she was saying when she sings. There’s a line she crosses when she moves up to higher notes, and when she crosses that line the song turns into just a blur of sounds. The low notes are good enough, at least you can understand what she’s saying, but I think her pronunciation and tone sound contrived.
I would like to hear how she sounds naturally, not trying to sound classical. These samples aren’t enough to make me want to sit through an entire CD.
Nate,
I love Jackie’s rendition of Vocalise but can’t understand a word. Can you??
Most of Jackie’s fans don’t understand a word of Pie Jesu, Nessun Dorma, Panis Angelicus, O Mio Babbino Caro, Ombra Mai Fu etc but are still brought to tears when they hear Jackie sing.
I didn’t think I’d have to explain this to anyone, but I was talking about her songs in English. Also, I wasn’t talking about how “most of her fans” react to her singing, because that has nothing to do with my own reaction.
Lyrics in any language are there for a reason, and it cheats the listener (and the song, and the songwriter) if a singer is allowed to mash through them just to hit the high notes. I hope that isn’t how “most of her fans” define interpretation, because it isn’t.
I have the same problem; I can’t understand the words she’s singing in her high register. But I can overlook that issue to hear that magnificent voice which has gotten far better since her last album two years ago, which was better than her voice on Dream With Me.
I feel sorry for you not wanting to hear the whole album, I really do. Buy it and then if you don’t like it give it to someone who will like it…like a teenage girl in the mall.
I can’t understand what /any/ soprano says when they sing high notes. I’ve always considered that to just be part of being a soprano.
Opinions about it are subjective, so I respect yours, but I don’t find her voice to be one I’d want to listen to for an entire CD. I don’t have the expertise to describe what I hear, so I’ll just stick with saying it sounds very contrived to me. To my ear, she sounds like someone trying hard to sound classical, and I don’t find that pleasing. I guess a different way to explain that is to imagine her just singing along to the radio while she cleans her room or something, and what she would sound like. That would be natural, and I would like to hear what that voice sounds like.
Nate, it is even simpler than that, just unlock the jaw. Instead the sound is going to little resonance chambers to magnify them. This has to be held in close check otherwise she would sound her age. I personally think the sound would even be better. But they don’t seem to care…
That sounds like exactly what she’s doing, and what I’m hearing as a real effort to sound classical, and it’s just not pleasant to me. To me, it sounds like a teen making it up because that’s what she’s been told to try to sound like. That’s what I hear, anyway.
I’ll give you a free tip. Good composers do not put words on the highest notes of any range. If this is a crowning note, then it would “ritorna vinciTOR” or “al vicino al SOL” (in Aida) so that the singer would only be faced with an oo vowel and forget about the consonant at the end. Text is for the lower to middle range. This is easy to understand as it is in the speaking range.
I wouldn’t expect Battle to be understood when she is going off into the stratosphere as in Dormi Jesu. Some things are physically and/or acoustically impossible.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 15, 2014 at 2:40 am
JJ, so where is evidence of professional guidance? You can ask for advice and not take it as well. One can go only so far on instinct and imitation, even the best of talents.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=39859#respond
cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd
OMG LOL. The Evanchos are not on trial, even if the voices in your head are telling you you are the judge and jury. So no one needs to present any ”evidence” to you.
Yes it must be surprising news to you, but parents of children can and do seek advice as needed and they decide what is best for their child. Not You.
Save your OTT obsessive inane rants about imitation(and all the others) for yourself.
JJ, either you missed my post about copying Battle or you were too ashamed to answer it. So as you like to cut and paste my posts here is part of it:
“Ms Battle did not write the notes for “Lovers”(Shigeru Umebayashi) nor “Dormi Jesu”(John Rutter) she got them from the songbook, the same place Jackie got the notes. And Ms Battles does not give out voices either. Are the voices in your head telling you that she did? You have been repeating this rant ad nauseam for over a year now. And you still have no takers, never will. Neither song belongs to any one singer, many have and will sing these songs. And they have and will sing the same notes, as written in the the songbook.”
My answer: The “songbook” of John Rutter, you say, for “Dormi Jesu”? Very interesting, as his version for SATB choir is about as different as can be, not to mention other composers who tried their hand at this Latin poem. The voices in your own head convinced you this was the same as Battle’s! You should do something about that.
The version sung by Battle however is an arrangement with guitar of a Chilean melody. I am not sure if she sings it in Italian or Spanish since “dormi” in Italian is the imperative to sleep and the same word in Spanish is past tense. It could be Latin but it didn’t sound like that. At any rate with folk music, keys are usually in a middle range. Because Battle’s voice is ultra high they could afford to transpose it up for her. What a coincidence Evancho does it in exactly the same key!” “Songbook”, right! Why don’t you show us all the songbook?
As for professional vocal advice, it must be coming from charlatans, judging by the results.
Further to the discussion about Kathleen Battle’s “Lovers” and “Dormi Jesu”. I must say I am really ticked off by those who have the nerve to say that Jackie’s “version” is better than hers. The latter was only a folk melody until Battle raised it to the status of an aria. Transposing it to accomodate Battle’s ultra high range was brilliant, doing something that no one had done before with it.
Now along comes little X, choosing from a “bunch” of videos and wants to do that too! She didn’t take it out of a songbook or a phonebook as Lovers was also cherry picked and roundly imitated. The work of interpretation was already done, a lot of thought went into it – is this “fair use”? Somehow knock-offs of big name fashion companies come to mind.
Also it is the same story with Emmy Rossum’s interpretation of Think of Me and the exact notes of her cadenza. Usually singers try to be original in cadenzas unless written in by the composer. This gives them individuality, not give them away. The difference between the copies and the sources is the original singers do it with full support.
Now as we know anything can be concocted in a audio studio. Live performances give the true picture. Think of Me on AGT showed no evidence of any sustained breath support, etc., and I won’t go into the et cetera.
All I can say is have it your way. The fans may enjoy the sounds but as Rosa Ponselle used to say, “a singer must sing on her interest, not principal”. Constantly singing high notes without support is definitely squandering principal, the reason that NO serious singing teacher would give a 14 year old the Vocalise by Rachmaninoff to do.
CJ,
No need to get ticked off. Both Battle and Rossum did a great job. Jackie just does it better. Thats all ! Nobody said they did a bad job.
Jackie’s originality is that she can take any song and make it sound better.
All I can say, is I rest my case with the outstanding nerve to claim that Rossum and Battle did a “great job” when they initiated the interpreations. Gee, thanks!
As for Jackie upstaging them, that is only an opinion of yours and a relatively small percentage of listeners.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 15, 2014 at 6:30 am
JJ, either you missed my post about copying Battle or you were too ashamed to answer it. So as you like to cut and paste my posts here is part of it:
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=39868#respond
cabbagejucie/zamyrabyrd I know you copy and paste your comments because it would be too time-consuming to type each of your rants on hundreds of different Jackie videos, blogs, and articles daily.
But you should not copy and paste your preambles.
Just as in this case, you use your copy and paste line
“JJ, either you missed my post about copying Battle or you were too ashamed to answer it.”
changing just the name of the person you are addressing with your copy and pasted rant. Since you continued with your copy and paste reply by including part of my comment replying to the very same rant you just copy and pasted saying I must have missed your rant on Jackie coping Battles.
Here that part of my earlier reply to your ad nauseam imitated rant,
“cabbagejuice Ms Battle did not write the notes for “Lovers”(Shigeru Umebayashi) nor “Dormi Jesu”(John Rutter) she got them from the songbook, the same place Jackie got the notes. And Ms Battles does not give out voices either. Are the voices in your head telling you that she did? You have been repeating this rant ad nauseam for over a year now. And you still have no takers, never will. Neither song belongs to any one singer, many have and will sing these songs. And they have and will sing the same notes, as written in the the songbook.” – See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/07/jackie-evancho-there-is-no-auto-tune-on-my-new-album/#sthash.lX1K8jsi.dpuf
You must have deleted NL’s link to his blog you copied this from to hide the fact it shows you are just copying and pasting your rants everywhere.
This rant of yours,about copying Battles, is only a little over one year old but I have seen it on hundreds of sites. And I am sure I have missed more than I have seen.
And this is just your newest rant. Think about all your rants that you have been copying and pasting all over the internet for nearly four years. Hundreds of thousands of post for each of 4 or 5 inane rants.
How sick is that !
P.S. I realized as soon as I struck the POST COMMENT button that my attributing Rutter for Battles version of ““Dormi Jesu” was wrong, but on NLs blog as you now there is no option to edit after posting. The arrangement for Kathleen Battle using the Chilean melody was done by Jacqueline Hairston.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 15, 2014 at 8:50 am
Further to the discussion about Kathleen Battle’s “Lovers” and “Dormi Jesu”. I must say I am really ticked off by those who have the nerve to say that Jackie’s “version” is better than hers. The latter was only a folk melody until Battle raised it to the status of an aria.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=39875#respond
Well cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd as you are fond of pointing out, this is just your opinion, and there are many who do not share your high opinion of Ms Battles. But I like her, for the most part.
I would not expect any ethical behavior from anyone enjoying this party, but it is not right in my opinion to copy so closely and not give credit.
If I didn’t post the link to the other article, it is not because I “want to hide” but because here is no need to unnecessarily consume space as you do in this life.
Here are some examples of cabbagejuice, aka zamyrabyrd, commonly repeated rants,
Posted on yt site of Jackie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpohpDKaHfE
zamyrabyrd 2 days ago (edited)
+18458c It’s useless to argue with these twitterpated fans. I was curious to see if there would be improvement in the much awaited performance on AGT. Instead there are the same unsolved problems from 4 years ago, such as the tight jaw that the microphone held close to the face doesn’t cover up, the head jerking, the meaningless arm gestures, the gulping for air having to breathe after every other note or so.
zamyrabyrd 2 days ago
+18458c I was relieved to see her in a more modest gown than some of those busty ones she was wearing plus red red lipstick to go with it. You wouldn’t believe how the fans eat all this up, collect countless pictures, wear jackie tee shirts to her concerts, golf hats, etc. I just wonder how the family can stand by and let all this happen.
Posted at yt video site of Jackie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJWBQiRugDI
zamyrabyrd 3 days ago
+Quasita Thank goodness someone has her ears on straight. Breathing audibly every note or so, is really unacceptable, shows lack of preparation. There was also speeding up towards the end of sections that maybe they thought no one would notice, but destroys the symmetry of the musical stanzas. The only possible reason for doing so is simply not having enough breath. Well, that’s not a surprise when witnessing how she gulps for air while jerking her head.
This is really bad technique, could have been improved with a good teacher. The clou was the high note that could not have been supported since everything else before then was devoid of any real muscular support. Maybe when she and her mom heard Emma Rossum whose interpretation and cadenza she copies practically to a tee, they thought all you need to do is belt it out, not realizing all the steady build up to that point. So when the high note comes, it is a result of doing everything else before that correctly, not floating a few medium high notes now and then.
It doesn’t matter what they were able to concoct in a studio. The breathiness that was always there on the bottom (a credible reason for her not being a mezzo or alto) has gotten more marked. This shows possible damage. It is a pity to witness such a misuse of a very good voice.
zamyrabyrd 2 days ago
+larrys92120 You people are obsessed. Her singing somehow brings out all the ugliness in you. More likely it’s her appearance, the total package of a girl sounding like a woman, emoting over a song in high drama. She approaches practically every song and aria in this way.
You, like the judges of AGT going head over heels from a high note matched by the equally maudlin expression on the face of the singer, confuse “emoting” with “emotion”. Songs convey a message through the text but you are all twitterpated by the intent rather than the result. Your concentration span is not that long anyway, so you let out a big whoop after being titillated emotionally.
Posted on NLs Blog about Jackie From July 9, 2014
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS: August 25, 2014 at 6:58 am
“You obviously miss most of the points I am making so will not bother to try to explain. However, one thing you and others can understand no matter how obtuse, even if you don’t want to believe it, most of Jackie’s repertoire has been copied from other singers.” – See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/07/jackie-evancho-there-is-no-auto-tune-on-my-new-album/?replytocom=37440#respond – See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/07/jackie-evancho-there-is-no-auto-tune-on-my-new-album/#sthash.hvDi1mTX.dpuf
I will post more of her rants later.
JJ. maybe you didn’t read the rules here but you are not supposed to copy from other sites, maybe a relevant word or two but not an encyclopedia. What are you trying to prove, that you’re the obsessed nutcase? How many Jackie sites do you monitor? It must be a full time job.
Now that I am here I do want to say with regard to Kathleen Battle it’s not a matter of opinion who likes her or not or this particular CD she made of Christmas songs. (I must say though that it was a fascinating mix and beautiful, too!) SHE initiated the interpretation of Dormi Jesu which until then was just a folk tune, worked her head off I’m sure, in developing it.
I will tell you or whoever may be reading this that a friend of mine many years ago sang an arrangement of Ladino songs that she said if I or anyone else would like to use them we would have to pay a copyright fee. Fair enough!
This is really over and above – the act of copying another’s performance and taking credit for it, even bragging that “my style has matured” as absolute cheek.
From what I heard of the Vocalise, it is not another Anna Moffo either. This really gets to be ridiculous and really I have better things to do in music like practice and read a fascinating book on musicology that I picked up recently.
I don’t love seeing so many arguments on here. We all have opinions and should be able to express them without being attacked.
That said, I am a Jackie fan. I don’t believe in putting her on a pedestal or bestowing her with numerous superlatives. I just like her voice. I agree with her critics, however, when they say her breath control is horrible. It certainly was on AGT! I wrote it off as being due to nerves because she was visibly nervous and did not look nearly as comfortable on stage as she has in the past. Truth be told, I’ve always noticed her breathing (at times it is very loud!) but I hoped it would get better as she got bigger and learned more. Has it? I’m not sure.
I will continue to be her fan. I already have tickets for her Hartford concert. I just cross my fingers that she continues to work on her technique and get better and better, because I want to continue to hear her voice for a very long time.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 15, 2014 at 5:39 pm
JJ. maybe you didn’t read the rules here but you are not supposed to copy from other sites, maybe a relevant word or two but not an encyclopedia. What are you trying to prove, that you’re the obsessed nutcase? How many Jackie sites do you monitor? It must be a full time job.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-39863
cabbagejuice aka zambrabyrd I am a big fan of Jackie. It is a very normal, actually expected of fans, to search for new videos and articles about the person they are a fan of.
That being said I do not believe I have ever been able to beat you to a new site about Jackie. Every time I get to a newly posted video of Jackie you are already there posting your inane rants.
I am retired, so I have more free time than a lot of people, but there is NO WAY I could spend as much time seeking out every video, article and blog about Jackie as you do. Not only that you post many inane rants on every site you plague, true many are just copied and pasted from the tens of thousands of sites you have stalked Jackie to over the last 4 years, but many other post are conversations with other anti-fans stalking Jackie on those sites. And more comments attacking the fans on the site who object to your efforts to disrupt their enjoyment of site.
cabbagejuice I swear, I have no ideal how you are able to search out all the latest site about Jackie, posting numerous comments on each, daily.
Like I said I am retired, and I do have lots of free time on my hands, and I am a big fan of Jackie, but there no way can I spend as much time as you do on Jackie sites. Wish I could but I need to eat, and sleep 5-6 hours a night.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 15, 2014 at 5:39 pm
JJ. maybe you didn’t read the rules here but you are not supposed to copy from other sites, maybe a relevant word or two but not an encyclopedia.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-40000
Well that’s not fair, there is not a relevant word in any of your post cabbagejuice.
Once and for all, Mr. Knight Jerome, it is NOT normal for a pensioner to troll the sites of a 14 year old girl even if he admires her singing. Furthermore, to get all riled up when there is any kind of criticism to the extent of cross cutting and pasting from other sites. Who hired you to beat down critics? And why are YOU taking it all so personal to the extent of vile name calling for anyone who does not agree?
My interest is spot on, having to do with teaching singing to young people. Therefore, I am vitally interested in how this popular success has come about. I am faced with the outlandish claims as Norman mentioned at the head of this article, is it for real and if not, what is REALLY going on? Yes, I needed to check the reality of singing Think of Me on the stage in public with all the hype surrounding the few clips of the recording. Information is such, trickled down and meted out in tantalizing bits and pieces.
You wrote above there is not a relevant word in any of my posts that you call “rants”. Well, that is not the opinion of the posters here and other places who ask me questions as an expert. They may sense something is wrong but don’t have the tools to put it into words. Even a fan above your post agreed in her own words that “her breath control is horrible”.
Now compare the reality of gasping for air and all the hype that their machine is turning out. There must be something wrong if there is such a gap between fantasy and facts on the ground. You all want to believe in this otherworldly perfection so much that it approaches the status of a cult. You and your fellow fans behave exactly like that, who would spike the kool-aid of any dissenter.
CJ,
I have a feeling that little 14 year old Jackie Evancho has you wrapped around her finger … and you don’t know it. Funny thing is she doesn’t even know of your existence but like a die hard fan you follow her career assiduously and scour forum after forum about any tid bit of information you can muster. There are times when I’m surprised that you know more about Jackie and what goes on on her forums than even I do and I’m an avid fan.
What is it that you hope to learn from Jackie that 3 and half decades of teaching hasn’t taught you. ? I’m curious. Is it the fact that she defies convention and that bothers you? Listen to her new album and remember that she has little or no formal training. Then think about how beautiful her voice is to most people and why? If you had the privelege to interview her what would you ask her and what would you hope to learn from her that you haven’t already learnt thru observing her? If you’re lucky and her security team doesn’t find out who you really are, you might even get a chance to meet her upclose and examine her at her finest when she performs. Have you attended any of her concerts? You should. Wear a Jackie T-shirt and carry a Jackie tote bag with a few Jackie buttons and no one will ever suspect you’re CJ. To convince everyone buy a couple of her CDs when you’re there. They’re pretty good when you get ear fatique from listening to Opera.
Ah, AJ, spoken like a true cult member! I recall when visiting a friend in England many years ago who got mixed up in Scientology, hearing from them, “Oh, the reason she is being drawn here is to become one of us and it is only a matter of time before she succumbs!” Not that I was trying uselessly to talk sense to her as I am doing now.
Please be informed and go tell your friends who also want to believe this silly nonsense, I am NOT a convert Jackie admirer. You wrote:
“Listen to her new album and remember that she has little or no formal training.” That figures and even more evident in public.
“Then think about how beautiful her voice is to most people and why?”
Though the AGT hits were higher than usual, it nowhere approached the millions that other acts were getting. A lot of kids have “beautiful voices”, so what?
“If you had the privelege (sic) to interview her what would you ask her and what would you hope to learn from her that you haven’t already learnt thru observing her?” I’d ask her how she can claim her style “matured” when she is mainly copying others? How she can call herself a ‘very big perfectionist” when she didn’t pass the first lesson of breathing? I’d ask if you can’t support your tones properly who in tarnation gave you the idea that you could approach the Vocalise in the same piecemeal manner?
I’d ask don’t all these old guys freak you out and what is the opinion of your family about it. I’d ask do you think your presentation on or off stage have something to do with the creepy old men who flock to your concerts and occupy your web forums. Sure, I have plenty of questions.
CJ,
I don’t for second believe you’re not a convert. You show all the classic signs of a cult convert in denial. Only a matter of time before you revert over completely. I am sure of it as the sun sets rises in the east and sets in the west. She’s got you running all over the web searching her forums for information on her and she doesn’t even know it. As someone once said, Resistence is Futile. And you prove it. Four years running …. Happy 4th Jackie Anniversary !
As to all the wonderful questions you would ask her, don’t count on the fact that you won’t get a sharp set down. :-). By the way if you think about it, not only does she have creepy old men but also creepy old women after her. I mean you don’t think its creepy for a woman to hound her for 4 years claiming she doesn’t like her but still can’t stay away from her forums and her career. :-).
AJ, typo correction: “covert”, not “convert”.
Music for me is not a cult activity. I just do it, listen to but not worship individual performers, admire them but not kiss the ground they walk on.
CJ,
Jackie’s album is now streaming live on Amazon for free until September 23rd. Don’t miss it. Dormi Jesu will no doubt be your favorite. Jackie takes Battle’s rendition to a whole new level. Even Battle would be proud of her. I’m sure of it.
Not enough can be said of the other songs. They are out of this world. You’ll like them even if you don’t !
CJ,
In this case both covert and convert apply .. a covert convert :-).
Music may not be a cult activity but following a 14 year old (whom you profess to dislike) for four years is exactly a cult activity. Ask any shrink !
I follow a lot of singers and pianists, some of whom I like more or less but hoping to find something to learn from, even if it is how NOT to do something. I have a whole library of Maria Callas books and recordings, among my large collection of scores and other books on music and singing. How does that make one pathological, except to very small mind?
I never said I don’t like Jackie. I dislike what is being done with her voice. The process here is interesting to me, so I’ll continue to watch and maybe someone will get wise, listen to reason and reverse the slide downhill. As long as it is a public activity selling an expensive product, you or your silly friends are not going to stop me.
The answer is simple. She is obviously a closet-Jackie fan.
I am NOT a fan of ANYone, GOT THAT???
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 16, 2014 at 6:00 am
Once and for all, Mr. Knight Jerome, it is NOT normal for a pensioner to troll the sites of a 14 year old girl even if he admires her singing.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-40005
cabbagejuice aka zamyrabyrd, My online moniker here is KnightlyOnce, and like you I have other monikers for different sites. On youtube it’s Jay Jackson, yours is zamyrabyrd.
So are you Ms. zamyrabyrd cabbagejuice, or Ms. cabbagejuice zamyrabyrd? I have more monikers, just like you.
I am not a pensioner, nor a troll, by any definition of the words.
Who made you Empress of the world?
I named you Queen of anti-fan trolls worldwide, but that title is an honorary one that does not carry any executive, legislative, or judicial powers of any kind.
And of course, there is no age limits for fans, nor on celebrities.
cabbagejuice says,
My interest is spot on, having to do with teaching singing to young people. Therefore, I am vitally interested in how this popular success has come about. I am faced with the outlandish claims as Norman mentioned at the head of this article, is it for real and if not, what is REALLY going on? Yes, I needed to check the reality of singing Think of Me on the stage in public with all the hype surrounding the few clips of the recording. Information is such, trickled down and meted out in tantalizing bits and pieces.
Are you the only teacher teaching singing to young people?
Were you selected by the singing teachers of the world to represent them in this investigation of Jackie’s success?
Are you employed by the Evanchos or her management team? Has a government agency hired you to investigate the Evanchos or to intercede on behalf of the minor child Jackie Evancho?
If you answered no to all these questions, you are correct.
Did your personal quest to answer your interest, concerns, and questions about Jackie require you to post comments on all the videos of Jackie you visited?
Do you know the definition of constructive criticism? If you do you ignored it.
cabbagejuice says,
You wrote above there is not a relevant word in any of my posts that you call “rants”. Well, that is not the opinion of the posters here and other places who ask me questions as an expert. They may sense something is wrong but don’t have the tools to put it into words.
Some on NLs blog my indeed know you to be knowledgeable, and seek information from you.
But those enjoying a video of Jackie on youtube would be unaware of your presence on the site.
So there you are, at the video sites to learn whatever you say you were there to learn. How many times would you need to watch any one video of Jackie, to learn all you could from it.
You could have went to every site featuring Jackie, staying there as long as necessary to learning all you could from each Jackie site on the internet, WITHOUT making your presence known on any of those sites.
To do what you claim you were there to do, did not require you to post even one comment.
If you posted no comment, no fan would know you were there.
Your comments concerning Jackie are irrelevant because they are colored by your bias against CC singers in general, and your personal vendetta directed at Jackie, her parents, management, and fans.
cabbagejuice says,
Even a fan above your post agreed in her own words that “her breath control is horrible”
There is no way to tell if the person making that post is a fan of Jackie’s or not.
It could have been posted by anyone.
zamyrabyrd has something she wants to tell you. Look for her post. Should be coming right after mine.
Jerome, I don’t think you real name is KnightlyOnce, hence Jerome Jackson, Jr.: your post is so rambling and screwed up that it is waste of time to read it, much less answer it. I’m sure most, if not all readers will pass over it with puzzled expressions on their faces. You wrote:
“You could have went to every site featuring Jackie, staying there as long as necessary to learning all you could from each Jackie site on the internet, WITHOUT making your presence known on any of those sites.”
First of all, are you a native English speaker or is it just too early in the morning? You just had to get up and open the computer to check what was happening in Jackieland. Needless to say I am not the only dissenting voice on the AGT video in particular. It is my business, not yours, if I wanted to concur with those reasonable critics who were surrounded and about to be eaten alive by the Jackie vultures. It’s nice to have support and not feel you are alone when telling the truth.
The funniest though is your self-appointment as the knightly defender of Classical Crossover. Even CC singers need to have basic technique, although some have moved to that genre because their skills in actual classical singing were lacking or attenuated by vocal burnout.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 16, 2014 at 9:11 am
Jerome, I don’t think you real name is KnightlyOnce, hence Jerome Jackson, Jr.: your post is so rambling and screwed up that it is waste of time to read it, much less answer it.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-40050
Janet, I don’t think your real name is cabbagejuice or zamyrabyrd either, it is how I address you here because it is the name you go by on this site, so if I call you cabbagejuice everyone here knows who I am talking about. I started referring to you as cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd so others who may not know you are both, would not wonder why I post a quote from zamyrabyrd on your comments here and said it was your quote, and to be sure everyone knew you are both.
I thought that was the same thing you were doing calling me JJ, Jay Jackson, etc at first.
But with that post on youtube, and now this one here, it is clear you believe a moniker of mine is not a moniker. Thats fine. But I have never seen you use your real name on any post anywhere on the internet, so I was just wondering why you think I would use different online monikers, but still also use my real name?
Trying to hide the fact that you can not come up with any good answers to the questions I asked and the points I made in my comment, by claiming I was rambling is very weak.
cabbagejuice says,
Needless to say I am not the only dissenting voice on the AGT video in particular. It is my business, not yours, if I wanted to concur with those reasonable critics who were surrounded and about to be eaten alive by the Jackie vultures.
cabbagejuice then says
The funniest though is your self-appointment as the knightly defender of Classical Crossover.
CC needs no defending I actually like you attacking it, shows the level of your obsession to all.
The funniest thing is you using the desire to save the other anti-fans from being eaten alive by the evil Jackie vultures, for the reason you had to post comments (on ALL the site???)
I bet you imagined yourself charging in on your magnificent white steed, lashing out with you long sword, knocking the evil Jackie vultures out of the air, and onto the ground to be crushed under the hoofs of your powerful war horse. LOL
Norman, I understand according to the rules for your blog that one cannot post with more than one online moniker. KnightlyOnce AKA JayJacksonJr has pendulated here between both names but now just used my youtube moniker and fraudulently made a statement that would be attributed to me which it is not. He needs to be stopped or even banned seeing the weirdness of his comments and the post deleted. Thanks!
cabbagejuice can’t you see I only did that to show you that the supposed Jackie fan you mentioned may not have been a Jackie at all.
I let you know it was coming, I did not try to hide that I was the one posting it, and will not ever use it again.
So relax.
You are using multiple identities. Stick to one, please.
I will Norman. I can assure you it was a one time thing to make a point.
CJ,
Well, what say you to Laptop. He / she seems to know his / her stuff ! I am anxious to hear ….
CJ,
You seriously think that most of the listening public give a rat’s a@s about whether Emmy Rossum is supported by muscalature or a wooden crutch. She sings great but isn’t anywhere close to the way that Jackie sounds.
And how many experts have come forth en masse and condemned Jackie Evancho for the way she sings. She sounds beautiful and her voice is incredible not only for her age but for any age and I don’t mind repeating this again that Aled Jones singing Pie Jesu at 11/ 12 years old sounded like a little girl. Jackie at 10 sounded more like she could have been his mother. That’s how she owns Aled Jones and anyone else who sang at that age. I hope you can comprehend that.
Here’s hoping you can also comprehend this. The more you stalk Jackie Evancho the more you prove how insecure you feel. Four long years of fearing that a little girl of 10 – 14 might just defy convention and accomplish what few if any have done. Actually sound better than most opera singers. That’s how it was for most people when she was 10 and that’s how it still is for most even now. So continue to live in fear because I don’t think you’re going to find any peace of mind as long as Jackie continues to sing. …. And the irony of it is that she doesn’t even know you exist :-).
Isn’t it interesting when one nutty fan cops out, another takes his place?
AJ, please get it into your head and the members of the ever shrinking circle of elderly Jackie admirers who form the bulk of the also diminishing attendees at her concerts, YOU may like her singing but this does NOT represent what you call the “listening public”. Otherwise, this would be reflected in the sales of the recent CD, which is as you know, quite disappointing.
You come here and state as though it were a fact that Jackie sings better than Rossum. Obviously this is YOUR opinion. There are objective standards, believe it or not, as pianists who might make mistakes while playing or smudge the pedal, or dancers who stumble, but you will love them all the same. Good for you! But please stop trying to convince on a mainly classical board that her singing is the best thing since sliced bread and everyone who is not bowled over has Aspergers’. Your hyperbole is ridiculous, still holding onto the dream of the greatest living prodigy (that unfortunately did NOT come up to expectations), instead, making a laughing stock out of yourselves everytime you mount the soapbox.
CJ,
For your own good you should seriously visit the local shrink and ask him to explain to you who really is the “nut”. Fans like myself have a reason for following the career of Jackie Evancho … we’re fans….. you’re not. So why bother with all this?
Please get this thru your head (either with your own will or thru the shrink’s), YOU do not represent her fan base or the majority of the listening public.
Please educate yourself on the state of the CD sales systemwide or at least ask an expert before you start looking foolish.
And yes it IS my opinion and just as worthy of note and valid as yours. And why would the objective standards that you claim have any importance or value to most of Jackie fans. How many Jackie fans have you convinced in 4 years. Not everyone has Aspergers … just a few and its easy to tell because they all follow the same behavioral patterns.
Nobody is holding onto the dream that Jackie is going to be the greatest prodigy. Its not a competition. Most of us just enjoy her music without all the technical crud you tend to repeatedly dole out…. four years in a row. Get over it !
And look who’s talking about soapbox. Exactly what do you think you’ve been doing for the last four years on your soapbox?
Your mainly “classical board” has barely had any classical poster in the last 120 posts. What does that tell you?
“Your mainly ‘classical board’ has barely had any classical poster in the last 120 posts. What does that tell you?”
It says serious people don’t give a damn and only nutcases like you keep coming back like flies or mosquitoes buzzing how great she is.
“Fans like myself have a reason for following the career of Jackie Evancho.”
So go ahead and follow but please don’t think you are not revealing HOW inappropriate your behaviors are given the age and sex difference. It’s more like stalking, not only her, in view of the fact that she should have some privacy as a kid but swoop down upon any site that has a hint of criticism.
But do keep at it. You only show how ridiculous you all are that encourages me in turn to keep posting facts. I will be more than happy to oblige, if that answers your question.
CJ,
You do understand that most people listening to singers consider it entertainment and not something that a vocal teacher in her middle years will stalk a 14 year old girl. That type of behavior is usually what is attributed to nut cases.
When you talk about how inappropriate anyone’s behavior is in following the career of a 14 year old it would help your case if you didn’t drool over the accomplishments of a 11/ 12 year old Aled Jones 🙂
As I have said many times before, your facts are your facts not everyone else’s. One would think that after 4 years of posting the same “FACTS” you would have been able to convince someone at least.
It seems like you idle fans are determined to stretch this discussion into infinity without actually going anywhere. I did not “moon over” or “drool over” the accomplishments of Aled Jones. You people’s choice of language really pegs your characters. Objective facts about singing are agreed upon even by fans and the necessity to come up to standard.
While we are at it however here is something to break the boredom: Church singing the Mein Herr Marquis at 15 and going up to a high D over the staff!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwCGw5KNOps
The more I listen to this remarkable singer, I feel that she is more a high mezzo like Anne Sophie Von Otter. Maybe the real problem was actually forcing her into a higher fach than she was suited for. I sincerely hope that there is something for Charlotte in the future.
CJ,
Not drooling over Aled Jones??? Sure fooled us all. Could have sworn we could have filled a pool with the drool.
Last I heard, Charlotte has no intention of ever doing classical or opera. She made that emphatically clear about a year ago (I think) during an interview on British TV.
I don’t ever recall you being so enthused all of a sudden with Charlotte. Last I remembered you couldn’t stop tearing her reputation to pieces. Nice change of heart.
AJ, you and your pals can say anything you want but it doesn’t make it true. “pools of drool”? Where? NO evidence at all, except your own mush and gush.
I didn’t really follow Church’s career back then but as more youtube videos are available, I have come to really appreciate her as an accomplished singer, not a kid for whom everyone is making excuses. She may have said she doesn’t want to do opera but I did see the clip where she is singing part of the Flower Duet. So maybe one should not take what she says literally. It would really be hard for her to pick up the pieces after such a crash and down period. This is yet another example of the danger of putting too much on the plate of young people before they are able to withstand all the pressures.
Here is an astonishing “Panis Angelicus” done at the age of 13!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYbmiXtWCas
CJ,
Matter of perception. Mine of you is as good as yours of me. Didn’t imagine the drool. Plenty of evidence on You Tube Videos of Jackie going back four years. The saga of CJ and Aled Jones is well known.
The video of Charlotte is from her PBS special Voice of An Angel. That’s how I discovered her. Thought she was the best thing in music until she changed genres. Then of course Jackie came along and the rest is history.
As good as her concert was and her Panis Angelicus, it pales in comparison to Jackie’s Dream with Me in Concert. Charlotte was 13 when she did Voice of An Angel, Jackie had barely turned 11 for DWMIC.
Norman, this is outrageous. Jay Jackson is committing identity theft, making statements in my name. For that, should definitely be banned. This is criminal behavior.
Could everybody please cool it and cut the trolling.
Cabbagejuice I was just trying to make a point in a way I thought would be humorous.
If I thought it going to upset, I would not have done it. I tried to let you know the message was coming, so it would not be a complete surprised, but maybe you did not read to the bottom of my post.
KNIGHTLYONCE SAYS:
September 16, 2014 at 8:52 am
It could have been posted by anyone.
zamyrabyrd has something she wants to tell you. Look for her post. Should be coming right after mine.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=40038#respond
I opened an email account just to make that one post, and deleted the account as soon as post was sent.
Hello Cabbagejuice,
Passions certainly run high in these discussions!
I see from your posts that you truly love beautiful music and understand the value of accumulated wisdom to get the most from available talent, while avoiding harm.
I believe that you see potential in Jackie’s voice and want to see it maximised and preserved.
For that I offer my heartfelt thanks.
My initial post was an attempt to prevent the escalation of sometimes heated discussions here, by offering an explanation of the point of view from which some exuberant fans begin. In this I failed.
I am saddened to read the unnecessary attacks between people who at the core share a common love for music. Surely that common bond is more important than differences in occupation, musical taste, musical sophistication and fate dealt place in life. I wish everybody would respect each others points of view here.
I would like to clarify my comments on value systems and hope. They were not the utterings of an Over The Top fan attempting to confirm his/her own bias, but a serious explanation:
I have read accounts, shared accounts with others via email, and myself have a story, illustrating why Jackie’s voice is of such importance to a not insignificant number of people.
These are accounts of deep human sorrow, born sometimes of war, sometimes of other human tragedies, that are very real to those affected.
To the point, something in her voice has provided solace to these people, and in once account has possibly prevented suicide.
Given that context, an apparently _out_of_hand_ (that is, unconsidered) denial that Jackie is [talented/gifted/whatever] should be expected to raise defensive reactions that may be perceived as irrational.
My post intended to explain this point of view, so that the learned commentators here would be gentle in their responses. Is it too late to calm the waters?
What is music for, if not to improve the human experience, and to give hope where there is too little?
Fred, one never knows from whence comes solace. It could be a smile, a kind word or a song. Anyone who has lived long enough knows that sometimes your life is hanging on a thread and even a small gesture of kindness can mean the world. However, attributing super-human qualities to one singer in my opinion is really too much. But if someone gets a positive subjective resonance, that is surely fine and good except when I read that some elderly people believed that Jackie was personally singing to them on the stage. That’s over the top.
I will add that the more free and natural the singing is, the more likely it will send a direct message to someone’s heart. And what can be more endearing than a child doing it? (14 is considered teenager though, don’t call them kids!)
Responding to formulas is something else, in other words, cultural triggers that can spark laughter or crying. Here is where studied acting comes in, making the kinds of gestures that evoke a certain emotion, done PURPOSELY, I might add.
(In fact there was a good story about Myra Hess, a spiritually inclined pianist whose pageturner read on the score that she was to “look up here”, in deep thought or ecstasy one presumes. Sorry to burst the bubble that she was supposedly communing with Beethoven.)
I wrote about the judges and audiences in AGT who on the whole let good talent pass by because their reaction to it is not visceral enough. This is a pity.
Thanks for replying CabbageJuice.
I expect that study and training would give Jackie greater control over what she does, and that would be a good thing. If that takes her in new directions, whether Classical or other, also a good thing, a sign of growth.
I have never been to a Jackie concert, but hope to one day. Her CDs are a source of joy for me, and I look forward to seeing/hearing where she goes in the future. I’m also learning to appreciate the traditional classical/operatic voices of other artists a great deal more, having awoken to the power of music.
All the best,
– Fred
Fred, it’s great Jackie’s music has opened up the world of singing for you. On the lighter side, many of us musicians came to classical music through cartoons. Yes, you read me right! As a kid I heard bits and scraps of Liszt, Chopin, Suppe, Tschaikovsky, etc. from Bugs Bunny and Disney movies, so was dying to hear more. I got a small transistor radio for Christmas when 12 and found the local classical music station. There were snatches of Beethoven’s 9th Symphony that riveted me so much I had to escape to my room listening to it in the dark everytime it came on waiting breathlessly for the final movement.
The strange thing coming from a family that appreciated opera, that is my grandparents’ generation, it took me a long time to get into classical singing as I was mainly pursuing everything piano for a long time. It wasn’t until I started to accompany that I began to distinguish voices and decided I wanted to do that too (although I had a brief stint as the only kid, the youngest one too, at 3 1/2 in a ballet class who could carry a tune on stage at a large convention center in our city. I remember now their lowering the microphone for me. Maybe because of that early experience I am more comfortable singing in public than playing piano. So in a way it is not a bad thing to develop that kind of ease in front an audience before self-consciousness of growing up enters in.
I want to tell you, although some of the fans would probably not believe it as they think there is a rift between the snobby opera world as they put it and more popular singing, I really do NOT like a lot of what passes for operatic singing. Maybe this was because I was the beneficiary of a large pile of operatic 78’s from a great uncle. This included Caruso, the utterly sweet tones of Lucrezia Bori, Amelita Galli Curci, so I was really spoiled for the best of Bel Canto even if they were imperfectly recorded. I don’t like Three Tenors, or any number of macho men trying to outdo one another. In fact, I don’t usually listen to opera but more art song. I was just looking up vids of Michael Crawford that I missed along the way that I like very much.
So you never know where the clues lie for a person to go on. I must admit that I had to stifle my horror many years ago when my piano students were going to see Richard Clayderman and saying how fantastic it was. We liked the Beatles back then but our teachers were horrified by that. As long as it is not raucous heavy metal, I suppose any good music can lead a person to even better.
CJ,
But you have nothing to learn from Jackie so why persist in following her?
By the way Jackie will be on Oprah on October 4th. Make sure you catch her interview on bullying.
In the light of her upcoming album, her PR team seems to be working to get maximum exposure for her. A great effort on the part of her team and very exciting for fans. Much to celebrate though it may be a bit premature.
The Album edition from Walmart also has six bonus songs for Christmas. Who knows, some generous Jackie Fan may actually send you the special edition for Christmas.
It’s my business, not yours why I listen to any singer, young or old, that includes Amira and the rest of them.
Wow, bullying! Will she give out the names of the kids who taunted her? That would be a fine revenge on national TV! Who was never confronted or attacked as a kid? Are some people supposed to be immune from it because they are special?
Hey, if someone in my school was going around saying “Look at me, I’m a singer, actress and model”, she probably would not be Miss Popularity.
CJ,
Of course its your business who you listen to but when you discuss it on a public forum then it becomes everybody’s and anybody’s business.
As far as the interview with Jackie, I have no idea what she’s going to discuss. That’s why you should make a note of watching it so you can speak intelligently about it instead of going off on a rant that compromises your intellect and your integrity as a professional.
Exactly, AJ, any perfomer who sells her goods in the public arena is liable for criticism good or bad. If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. A child doesn’t need to sing for her supper, except in India perhaps.
Conventional wisdom is to wait not ONLY because of adverse vocal ramifications but also possible psychological ones as well. Considering this is a modest million dollar enterprise, there is no need to tread softly. In the end, doesn’t the saying go, “there is no bad publicity”? So even the dark cloud of bullying can have a silver lining.
CJ,
At this point, I can assure you that based on your most recent rants you are in more need of psychological help than anyone else I know of.
Of course the dark cloud of bullying has a silver lining. Why else do you think Oprah is interested in doing it and E team is willing to do it. Its business and the business of making the most of an opportunity for exposure. The question you may want to ask is whether it is contrived or real. As far as we an tell from previous references of bullying it occurred. Jackie is a celebrity who will use her status to push certain causes that she may deem important and at the same time gain celebrity exposure for her concert tours etc. Nothing unusual about it. All celebrities do it.
Jackie isn’t a saint so no need to try to prove she isn’t 🙂 Waste of time and effort if you ask me.
I will bet there is no one surprised that cabbagejuice had this to say on the subject of bullying.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 17, 2014 at 6:02 am
Hey, if someone in my school was going around saying “Look at me, I’m a singer, actress and model”, she probably would not be Miss Popularity
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-40207
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 17, 2014 at 6:02 am
Who was never confronted or attacked as a kid? Are some people supposed to be immune from it because they are special? Hey, if someone in my school was going around saying “Look at me, I’m a singer, actress and model”, she probably would not be Miss Popularity
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=40160#respond
From all I’ve observed of your treatment of the minor child Jackie Evancho, I can assume no child you grew up around was safe from bullying, especially if they were brighter, or more talented than you, like Jackie.
AJ,
cabbagejucie likely imagines her name will come up during Jackie’s interview on Oprah. cj’s ego is so big, she thinks Jackie is actually aware of her existence. How silly is that?
No, but that guilty kids will be singled out for embarrassment 4 years later, even if not named. That’s nasty. Oprah’s show has been anyway a parade for victims all these years.
cabbagejuice, we have exchanged plenty of barbs and jabs during the past 3 years or so. We both at times have gone overboard and taken to far on a couple of occasions.
But we are not enemies, I do not wish on harm on you.
I really am concern that you are unaware that you have an obsession, and of the harmful effect this obsession is having on you.
Just for a moment, do not respond to this post. Instead reread your comments on bullying. Do it when you feel calm and collected. Try to imagine someone else had written them and you are reading them. It should be clear those comment reflect negatively on the one who wrote them.
Don’t patronize me either, JJ. We were not having a fair exchange of views. You played dirty everytime. You make ad hominem comments when you are too frustrated to come out with a anything rational. You even resorted to following me on other sites where I praised other singers that really got to you. To top it all you were preempting and misusing my identity, which is actually a felony.
Get your act together and save your psychobabble for your goofy buddies (while you trade Jackie pictures of course).
cabbagejuice have you notice how many times lately you have been telling people not to patronize you? Why do you think you have had to say that so often lately?
A phony name on the internet is not an identity.
Seriously get help, or at least talk to someone you trust face to face.
Stop trolling. Now.
AJ,
You are so right. During the last year the toll cabbagejucie’s obsession has taken on her is scary.
Could you have imagined a year ago that cj could ever make such foolish statements? It would have been inconceivable a year ago.
If there is anyone close to her that cares about her, they need to get her some help.
Jackie really shines on this new CD!
I have no doubt “Awakening” will be a tremendous success for Jackie Evancho. The pure vocals and her ability to draw such emotion from each and every song once again shows just how incredible a talent Jackie really is. The tremendous following she already has will no doubt grow exponentially over the next year as Jackie travels all over the world. There is no doubt her vocal abilities have grown tremendously over the past four years, and that fact alone will have more and more people traveling hundreds and even thousands of miles just to experience a live Jackie Evancho concert performance.
Maybe you or someone can explain the marked difference between this latest recording and the recent live performances. Please note that normal musical institutions, competitions and auditions require LIVE tapes, not audio. There must be a reason for that, right?
First you need to expand on what you mean by “normal musical institutions”. As compared to what, exactly. Also what these musical institutions for competitions or auditions have to do with Jackie, her new music, new musical director, or arrangements for her new tour that mark the difference between her past live performances and her new CD.
I didn’t think I would have to spell it out but, what usually passes for sensible and normal music institutes, not the Stephen Runnels University of Armchair Psychotherapy, do not accept by now any spliced and mechanically enhanced audio tapes as being authentic.
In the case we are talking about, the latest recording has tons of reverb which more or less homogenized the vowels in the melismas (explanation: when there are no words) whereas, in public, Jackie does not sing a pure “a” as what is required in the Vocalise. Her vowels are what we call undifferentiated, in other words, unschooled, as is also expected. This is not to mention the short supply of air in public as well as a lot of breathiness in the sound in AGT,
I was thinking about the so-called “Jackie Effect” and believe it is a kind of mirroring expectations between her and the fans back and forth. Stella Scott, a singer and teacher, is the voice of reason on the subject of child fame. And if we talking about psychology. It could not be more unhealthy what these kids are being put through, wanting and expecting to be famous as a measure of how good they are:
“The young and cute Amira is not talking about how she wants to give condolences and happiness to people. Nope. She talks about having a ton of fans and getting tons of applause. She hopes the jury will like her. She wants confirmation and approval. She has learned from TV that true confirmation is what you get when a set of judges say your awesome and people scream and stand up after you’ve sung.
How do other little girls feel when they sit at home watching this circus? Happy? Content? Good enough? Apparently not. Otherwise Amira would have been satisfied with being a princess in a sparkling dress and a tiara from any toy store. No, today you must be hailed by thousands. You must have records made and sell by the millions. Not until then are you a real princess. Not until then are you good enough.
What About The Losers? No one ever mentions all those girls that starry eyed come to the competition with hopes like Amira’s. Television, fan clubs, magazine articles… and then fail miserably. What happens to them? To their self-esteem, self worth and future capacity to love themselves without judgement? What happens with their talent and love of music? No one starts crying out of joy. No YouTube channel with new fans and new views and new comments with thumbs up every other minute. Will they search for approval in vain all their lives? No one knows. And no one seems to give it a thought.
So there they are like some kind of vocal Child Beauty Pageants. Tiny girls singing these very grown up texts of love, horror, horniness, death and the beauty of it all. Loving till the end of time. Come what may…”
Psychotherapy Cj? No, simply pointing out the reason you cannot empathize with the music, leaving you to fill the void with homogenizing the vowels in reverbed melismas and other such nonsense. And that is fine for you, but that also leaves you with a false understanding as to what the “Jackie effect” really is. The Jackie effect is something you experience, not define. The only way you personally could ever experience the Jackie effect is to attend a Jackie performance and witness those around you experiencing the Jackie effect, and that would still be only a peripheral experience. Jackie Evancho is a musical artist beyond the scope of your ability to understand. That is not an attack or disparagement against you any more than it would be to attack or disparage a six year old for not being able to drive the family car.
Mass psychology of large groups going gaga might better describe what you are talking about. Fortunately, you are a relatively small group, hopefully not too dangerous, but nasty nevertheless when crossed. I am a member of a much larger group that simply doesn’t care and yet you call us pathological.
Attendance in concerts over the past few months has not been good at all, with the possible exception of Chatauqua where there were package deals for those enjoying the grounds for a certain time period.
Please read Stella Scott’s description about heightened expectations of kids who would be usually satisfied with a nice word and modest gifts but when thrust out to the public arena start to be dependent on feedback from tumultous applause and exorbitant praise. This gives rise on both sides to claims such as she would like to “help the world” and those who carry it further saying she must be channeling spirits. This kind of mirroring produces exponential effects since the audience is prepped for something extraordinary and the object of affection is ready and willing to supply it.
Please be informed that so much of the tricks in the tool box are just that: maudlin facial expressions, arm wrenching, and cheap emoting at the expense of the music and text. This has been the case from the very beginning except in those rare cases when she was singing more or less naturally. This had more to do with imitating those her age or near it, such as Pie Jesu or Ombra Mai Fu done by Aled Jones when a boy soprano and Christmas songs by Charlotte Church. Mimicking the antics of a Brightman was a bad move but apparently hooked true believer types like you, emotionally immature and very impressionable. Serving up melodrama to the public in this manner is really bad on so many levels. When prodigies get off their high and have to rely on their own resources, that is when the trouble starts. At some point Jackie will have to sing in her own voice all across the range without help from audio cosmetics.
I think that whatever kind of singing career someone wants to have, a show like America’s Got Talent can bring baggage. It may be seen as a good thing because it gets you the televised exposure, and that seems worthwhile if you are one of many with a handful of YouTube followers or stringing together local gigs around a day job; but in artistic terms, it can be pernicious. It is worse for a young performer, because at least an adult might think, “I’ll fit the mold; I’ll play the game; I’ll get what I can get from it.” When you are as young as Jackie Evancho (or Amira, on the Holland version), being on such a show is a big step that can be defining, because certain attitudes and aesthetic notions get either implanted or reinforced. The melodrama you describe plays well within the confines of the Got-Talent pageants, and it is hard to shake off. The singer then leaves the show with an audience that expects it.
Cj you are again dancing around the periphery of something you don’t quite understand. Relying on second and third-hand information and opinion of Jackie, her fans, and then parsing a formulated judgement to align with your biases. You avoid recognizing that the millions of Jackie fans around the world benefit tremendously from her music as Jackie benefits from her fans. There simply is no benefit for you in disparaging Jackie Evancho and her fans.
Yes Addison
It wasn’t a bad experience …. it was a comical one ! Particularly since the person couldn’t stop telling everyone how she was better than Jackie because she sang and trained all her life.
I think the recital was Vittoria Vittoria or was that the name of the person. Hard to remember.
She was disparaging another singer between the songs of her recital? That does sound like bizarre behavior.
Yes, Addison, bizarre indeed! Isn’t it funny when someone incriminates himself?
“Your prespective hasn’t changed much since the last time you posted on one of the Jackie topics on this forum. I think I saw a You Tube video of one of yoru recitals.” Strategy: don’t refer to or answer the points made but go for the jugular. It didn’t matter that Yes Addison denied being the singer. What possible relevance of an alleged recital 3 years ago that was critical of Jackie?
AJ: “Am I to understand that we have a common acquaintance … You know who I am talking about ? Your perception is that she was disparaging another singer. My perception was that she was not only trying to sing an aria that she couldn’t but she thought she sounded really good. Unless of course you have personal knowledge regarding this person and the performance and know better… as I’m sure you know since you know the person and the recital I’m referring to.It wasn’t a bad experience …. it was a comical one! Particularly since the person couldn’t stop telling everyone how she was better than Jackie because she sang and trained all her life. I think the recital was Vittoria Vittoria or was that the name of the person. Hard to remember.”
I just got this from the same source: “CJ, You’re all over the place in your post.”
Are these people looney, or what???
CJ,
Is your post to Yes Addison a response to my post … indirectly :-). Still trying to make sense of what you’re saying.
Also I believe your response to Wally should have been a response to littlejay.
Wally is trying to take your side. Wally isn’t against you . Wally is on your side and making an argument for you. 🙂
Its okay to have your professional opinion about Jackie but don’t expect everyone to agree and a few do otherwise Jackie would not have a flourishing career.
LuC4,
How is that different from the Jackie fans like yourself who do the same, and worse?
Wally / HC
Would you like the answer here or on Amazon?
Let me answer you here and then you can ask me on Amazon too and i’ll answer there too.
I DON’T represent her fan base, her, her parents, her team or anyone associated with her. I ONLY and ONLY speak for myself and for some fans at times if I feel so.
Hope that answers your question,
Are you a fan and would she be proud of you if she found out some of the things you’ve done ?
CJ,
You’re all over the place in your post. From Vocalise, to Amira, to beauty pageants, little girls sitting home, little girl losers, tiara’s, sparklers and God knows what. I am trying to comprehend what your point is but unable to do so.
You’re doing exactly what you accuse Stephen of doing …. Armchair Psychology 🙂
LuC4,
Do you think Jackie would be proud of how you represent her fan base?
Yes Addison,
Am I to understand that we have a common acquaintance … You know who I am talking about ?
Your perception is that she was disparaging another singer. My perception was that she was not only trying to sing an aria that she couldn’t but she thought she sounded really good. Unless of course you have personal knowledge regarding this person and the performance and know better.
Some of the comments on that video were downright brutal and simply because this person went to extra lengths to disparage Jackie ( a then 11 year old girl). So people (justly or unjustly) had a field day with it … as I’m sure you know since you know the person and the recital I’m referring to.
No, AJ; this is all news to me. I don’t know who this singer is who has a YouTube recital and was taking every opportunity to say she was better than Jackie Evancho, and I cannot recall ever leaving a YouTube comment on anyone’s vocal recital.
Nevertheless, I think I am getting a clearer picture now (from your posts): This is a singer who has been critical of Jackie Evancho (not *during* the recital, though), and Jackie Evancho’s fans retaliated against her by leaving brutal comments on her recital video. Well, I guess that showed her. Not for the first time, I wonder, though, if that did JE or her fan base any good beyond whatever vindictive value it provided in the short term.
Yes Addison,
Actually you couldn’t be farther from the truth. The critique wasn’t from fans :-). But you already know what I mean.
There wasn’t a reply button below your comment about serving up to the AGT judges and public the kind of melodrama they expect, so I’m posting here.
In hindsight, this is what the poor girl was encouraged to do from 4 years ago. Back then is a clip of her singing Ombra Mai Fu to David Foster’s electric piano. It was amazing how she put herself in the mood, changed her facial expression by puckering her lips and went through the whole schnazz. This was the same with O mio Babbino accompanied by him later, Dark Waltz, and another event in which she was singing in front of a choir with Ave Maria, Nessun Dorma, etc.
No one told her to stand quietly, breathe deeply and sing naturally.
Instead, ALL of this time, the plaudits were getting more and more extravagant as you can see in a recent post to that effect. Even though what Amira is consigned to do, such as the Ode to the Moon, much too difficult for her now in that there is not suffiicient muscular support, she is still singing in her own credible voice.
Now I believe we can all sit back and watch the comedy/drama of the multiple identities spilling over from other forums!!!
CJ,
Poor Girl ???? Are we talking about the poor girl who has 3 PBS Great Performances under her belt, sold 3.5 million albums, sang for the President and The Royal Family of Japan, released 5 albums, youngest artist to go platinum, rubbed shoulders with Jose Carerras, Sumi Jo, Andrea Bocelli, Sarah Brightman etc and all before she went to high school. ?
Poor girl indeed ! So sad to see someone so young with so much success. (Sarcasm) !
CJ,
Amira’s own natural voice isn’t helping her sell any albums other than the 20K + she sold. No doubt she is very young and has plenty of time to grow and develop and no doubt in my mind that she will be very successful later if not now.
Jackie has her own style and everyone can tell that she is changing and adapting her style, stage presence, interaction with the audience etc. Its a work in progress and from all appearance, great progress.
The technical gibberish you’ve been quoting for 4 years is getting somewhat stale. Jackie is changing but your opinion is not.
I have no desire to get into the cackling war so I will try to keep my comments addressed to the question asked by the blogger and will not be replying. I’m just here to leave my comment.
Has Jackie improved? Her voice certainly has. From “Dream With Me” to this latest CD. I won’t include “Songs From The Silver Screen” because I think it was pretty much a “filler” or “safe” album made during a time when Jackie’s voice was going through it’s most drastic changes. This new album pretty much announces that those concerns are no longer a concern. Jackie’s voice from AGT to DWM added a child-like quality to a mature sounding voice captivating unsuspecting listeners and enabling her to sell millions of albums at a time when album sales are steadily falling for all singers of every genre. Gone now is the child-like quality,replaced by a stronger, richer,fuller lower register and a soaring, still pure and crystal clear higher register. Still noticable diction problems when she goes to the high notes on this CD,but really that is the only fault I can find. That is usually a problem for nearly all sopranos though and requires special training and practice to improve. Being one of the priviledged to have heard her at the PBS taping in Longwood Gardens, I was once again amazed at the difference between when this CD was made (I’m guessing Feb/March ) and the taping. You can tell the improvement and hard work she has put into it in just 6 short months. She is almost assuredly getting training from someone because if she has made that much improvement on her own then she truly is a very rare cat indeed.
Bottom line, I loved DWM. I have played it to death. I think “Awakening” is even better and a testament to the fact that the new Jackie is better than the old Jackie.
You can say anything you want, Wally, but by the posted evidence of Somewhere over the Rainbow and the recent Think of Me on AGT does NOT show all those improvements you are bragging about.
“Stronger, richer, fuller lower register” – I’m sorry but that is pure wishful thinking. She will never have a rich lower register as much as any coloratura has had including my own pupils or those I have worked with. I suppose we will all have to wait for the PBS to be broadcast but commonsense says that it could not be so different from other public performances.
I did say what I want and my opinion is just as valid as your opinion. Of course I am not so possessed as to try to refute everything positive someone says about the young singer. Of all the posts on here (124 and counting) only a couple reflect any civility. I recognize the name (zamyrabid). That name appears quite a lot on Jackie videos. Everytime there is a new one posted pretty much. Rabid is an apt nom de plume for such behavior that spans over 4 yrs exhibiting a madness that cannot be matched by anyone. I don’t know which Wally character you are referring to, but I can say with confidence that they do sell chemicals in pill form that you could benefit from greatly.
Have a great day and enjoy your sniping. 🙂
CabbageJuice,
I think you may have confused LittleJay’s comments for mine.
I’m surprised no one has posted this here yet, but all of the songs from Jackie’s new album Awakening can be previewed in their full length via streaming, for free through September 22 at:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LHKF6WE/ref=cm_cd_asin_lnk
Many of us would be interested in your thoughts on some of the other tracks, should you care to review them.
I am not about to walk into another trap. Everything I have to say is here and I wasted too much time on the subject. The new recording is very different from her live performances. There should be some correlation between how a singer does in public and an audio CD. The problems of breath and articulation both in vowels and text are simply whisked away mechanically.
I see something else that you don’t. The repertoire is far more difficult than that used for the tours of the past two years. It may have been possible to get away with floating a few high notes here and there but without a built up technique, it will be a real liability to project them as in the Think of Me which she could barely sustain on AGT. Imagine having a whole program of similar pieces. This is madness. Not only the fans are irrational.
cabbagejuice nearly every difference between the live performances and the new CD that you list are only in the mind of an extremely bias OTT obsessive. They do not exist in reality, and have not for a couple of years now.
Wally,
I’m intrigued :-). Who is “many of us”. Are they all on Amazon or are they spread out all over the web. CJ has been very prolific (about 100,000 words by my estimate) in four years, on the subject of the voice endangerment as it relates to Jackie Evancho.
I was not aware that there was such a desire to hear of CJ’s opinion among the Jackie fans :-). Seems I haven’t kept upto date with events.
AJ, Looney See Four, most of my posts have been answering for better or worse, questions or provocations by you people. So if you don’t want me to post any more it is up to you guys to stop. Really, there is no need for you to continue except if you have nothing better to do, but I am busy with other things having to do with music. Normal folk would be able to listen to CD and enjoy it quietly but you all have to make a global manifesto out of it.
Wally,
My Amazonian Friend ….. no I don’t have a link to the video but that doesn’t preclude me from talking about it. CJ has never provided a video of her singing to prove her point about singing technique. That doesn’t stop her from making her point. Same applies here. Besides, Yes Addison already confirmed she knows who and what I’m talking about.
If you are that interested in seeing this video, I suppose you could invest some time and trouble and locate it. Let me know when you find it. I yearn for it for a good laugh.
AJ, It’s so hard to keep all these alters apart, but you are probably right about my answer about Longwood should have been addressed to LittleJay. There is enough confusion as it is with the Big Jay and all his pseudonyms.
Now you say that Wally is actually HC whatever that is, and he says you are Luc4, a fascinating nom-de-plume! He wrote:
“AJ\LuC4 Can you post a link to the video you’re referring to so we can see what you’re talking about?”
Your answer: “Wally, My Amazonian Friend ….. no I don’t have a link to the video but that doesn’t preclude me from talking about it…Besides, Yes Addison already confirmed she knows who and what I’m talking about.” – See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=40609#respond
The combined goofiness of you fans is sheer wacko – going on for about 10 posts or so about an alleged video of a Jackie critic from 3 or 4 years ago you imagined was acknowledged (not!) by Yes Addison or even attached a crumb of importance to. Judging by this incident alone, why should anyone take anything any of you say seriously?
Re: “going on for about 10 posts or so about an alleged video of a Jackie critic from 3 or 4 years ago you imagined was acknowledged (not!) by Yes Addison or even attached a crumb of importance to”
I was not going to pursue it further, but pace AJ, I have no idea about the incident with the video. It gets more byzantine with every post. As best I can sort it out, some singer took every opportunity to claim she was better than Jackie Evancho. There was a video of her giving a recital and singing an aria poorly. The aria may have been “Vittoria, vittoria” (by Carissimi?). People left brutal YouTube comments about it…but they were emphatically NOT Jackie fans. I guess a shadowy second group did it, in hopes that Jackie fans would be blamed. Also, I keep being assured that I’ve confirmed it and I know exactly what is being discussed. It’s like Kafka.
Yes Addison,
I only mentioned it once :-). Pity you missed the performance. If I happen to run into again, I’ll copy the link and notify the secret kabal of your desire to see it. Once permission is granted by the Great Kabal leader, I will forward the link to you so that we may all join in the revelry. You have my promise on that!
CJ,
I suppose repetitious rants for 4 years is pretty normal in your book. Could you please send me that book :-).
Since when did insanity not seem sane to the insane 🙂
CJ,
Trust me… it wasn’t goofy. The video was comical. Truly sad when you consider to what lengths this person went to criticize Jackie. Of course I have no doubt that should you release a video of your performance it would certainly do justice to the technique that you so vociferously and adamantly talk about. Please don’t disappoint us by being so reticent about not showing us your video.
Is this a mezzo then in her 30s, initials MM, who keeps a blog and got herself on the enemies list a few years ago with an entry about Jackie Evancho? I did find some of HER singing on YouTube and more on her own site. I’m listening to a Liber scriptus from the Verdi Requiem right now, and it’s certainly not comical. She sounds more than a bit light for this music, and I could find things to nitpick (I know the piece well and am burdened with memories of all-time greats in it), but she obviously knows what to do and is a good singer.
Just a guess.
Yes Addison,
I certainly am no music expert and even less when it comes to classical music or opera. But even in my ignorance I could tell it was comical in light of all the claims made.
As a matter of fact it was rather pathetic or sad since this person went to such lengths to disparage Jackie and her singing.
Whether you are looking at what I am talking about, I have no idea. All I know is that even I felt rather embarrased by the performance knowing that this person was so critical of Jackie 🙂
Okay. That’s why I didn’t name her. We may not be talking about the same person, and certainly not the same performance.
AJ, Wow, Lucy-fer, holding a grudge about someone who dared to criticise your little darlin’ a few years ago. This will be put on your PERMANENT RECORD FOREVER! You people are not only looney-tunes but nasty and vindictive! It’s incredible how sweetness and light can spawn such denizens such as you!
CJ,
There you go with name calling again 🙂 “Looney See 4. Yep ! Reminds me of those of Wally’s kind on Amazon who do the same thing when they get upset! Start resorting to name calling. Ask Wally! He / She knows exactly what I’m talking about ! Wally will tell all if you ask. I am sure of it.
And this is exactly why people discard what you have to say…. a grown person acting like a little kid throwing a tantrum because she’s upset. Not that you’re the only one. Wally can tell you there’s quite a few that he / she knows about.
AJLC4, it would be easier for me to address Wally if I knew more about him/her. Maybe you can enlighten us?
Yes Addison,
I could name her but I won’t. Its irrelevant and not important. What is important to me is the music of Jackie Evancho that some on this forum and on other forums (like the one that Wally comes from) tend to turn into something inappropriate and ugly. We can have a meaningful discussion as long as you don’t resort to name calling, like CJ tends to do when she’s upset, or denigrating a 14 year old (which others have done as Wally can attest to) and her parents. We can talk about the vocal short comings of Jackie Evancho and remedial actions that could be taken but once the discussion veers off into personal attacks on a 14 year old and her parents …. all bets are off. I tend to go blind and deaf to anything and everything. You can ask Wally. He / she / it … can verify that !
CJ,
Matter of principle. I dont reveal identities. You’re going to have to ask Wally! He She / it/ will be more than willing to reveal all !
The mystery deepens…
AJ, you wrote:
“I could name her but I won’t. Its irrelevant and not important… You can ask Wally. He / she / it … can verify that !” – See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=40686#respond
HOW can Wally reveal the source if s/he asked you?
“AJ\LuC4, Can you post a link to the video you’re referring to so we can see what you’re talking about?”
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-40680
CJ,
Already answered to Yes Addison about video link.
You’ve got the messages mixed up or I have. The reference to Wally was not about the video.
CJ,
One thing I can say for sure. Wally resides on Amazon :-). Regular poster or imposter, hard to say. Beyond that I really don’t know, though I do have a few guesses but they would be just that … guesses. Let me know if you find out:-). I could be wrong but I think Wally is going to make himself / herself / itself scarce for a while or as they put it …. lay low.
AJ buddy old pal, you’re not being truthful. I don’t ordinarily reveal IDs either, but since you started the trend at Amazon, of not just revealing another moniker but someone’s real name, it seemed fair enough. No, I’m not that person that you revealed in violation of Amazon’s rules and I won’t out your real name here.
Wally,
Sorry. You’re lying or delusional. You can tell me who you think I revealed on Amazon. There are only two people whose identities or rather their pseudonyms are well known. I am not the one who revealed them. I don’t really care whether its a violation of Amazon policy or not. Its a question of priniciple. You violated that. Your problem. And I forgot to tell you. What makes you think my identity is a huge secret? LOL !
And thanks for telling me who you are :).
Wally,
It appears you’ve opened a can of worms. Someone over at the jungle is on a rant and is posting and deleting messages. This must be the person you were talking about. Very comical ! And sad. You may want to tell your “Friend” to calm down and not draw so much notice since he, she, it, was NOT the subject of my post. Of course, I might add that if that Friend happens to be you, the same applies….assuming of course that you are two different people….which is anyone’s guess at this point.
But going back to Jackie, Album releases Tuesday, interview on Monday….what could be more exciting than that for fans, assuming we are not all so self absorbed 🙂
Don’t know if Wally is checking the posts at this point, but from what clues I can gather about his writing, he is concerned about justice and rules, is polite and seems to be well educated.
CJ,
If Wally is not then his/her friends / friend are. I guarantee it :-).
One cannot fight for justice by acting unjustly or preach a rule by breaking a rule and hope to have credibility. You and I have many many differences and heated debates. You found out my moniker on You Tube. You referenced it in a post to me without ever revealing my moniker and I confirmed it. But you still didn’t blatantly advertise to everyone even though its not a huge secret. I respect that even though I may not agree with you on other things. I also rarely ever use your other moniker even though its common knowledge.
Wally’s attitude is typical of the grown adult acting like a kid who wants to lash out because he / she is upset. Very compulsive, emotional etc. Came totally out of the blue and unexpected for me. I’m sure Wally will be back to further this discussion that has absolutely no interest for anyone except Wally and a few of his / her friends.
By the way I haven’t confirmed or denied that LuC4 is my moniker or not. And I haven’t yet said who Wally is either. We’ll just wait for Wally to provide the evidence even though I know if its true or not. And I may never confirm the obvious or ambiguous.
That being said, are you going to watch Jackie’s interview on Monday? And please try to be original in your assessment 🙂
AJ, starting from the last, no, I will not be watching the interview as I have other musical stuff to do besides the doings of a 14 year old. One is practice and the other is being right in the middle of Howat’s book on Debussy and Musical Proportion. The latter cannot be read as quickly as a novel, takes time and thought.
Another clue about Wally, he seems not to be a stranger here but has returned, as it were, from a long hiatus. Truly yours, Sherlock
CJ,
I’m sure you’ll catch the performance sooner or later since its going to be all over You Tube and the fan sites within minutes after the performance. :).
As far as Wally, yes educated, very articulate and very emotional and impulsive. Thanks for the tip ….. er Sherlock 🙂
The clarity, control, and absolute beauty of Jackie’s interpretations of “Dormi Jesu”, “Ave Maria”, and “Vocalise” on her new “Awakening” release are more than worthy of praise for anyone who appreciates classical music. This young girl has improved on her already incredible talent.
Listen, Stevie, you can like all you want an audio recording that as we all know is not immune from tinkering, together with the fact that her live performances do not come up to that standard. So if you are trying to preach to the classical world as it were, forget about it.
“Dormi Jesu” done by Kathleen Battle is still better vocally as it happens to be the original anyway. And please don’t try to convince anyone that this slapped up “Vocalise” is any better than Moffo or any of the great sopranos who have done this and who are known to be able to reproduce it the same way in PUBLIC.
Also while we’re on the subject, I don’t take kindly to anyone who is saying I am psychologically disturbed or empathy deficient. Just watch it and maybe delete all of your incriminating posts.
I listened to the preview clips.
I don’t think I’m a customer at whom this is aimed, but it is interesting to think about what the strategy is here. I’m hearing some textures (in the backing, I mean) that are different from tracks of hers I’ve heard in years past, from the last two albums. The idea here seems to be, this is different, but not THAT different. You’ll like this if you liked the other ones, but it’s enough of a departure to be a change of pace.
I think she’s being held back a bit. I will not get into the nuts and bolts of what she’s doing vocally, although it is tempting, because technique and expression are linked in good singing. Technical security frees a singer or instrumentalist. It opens up more possibilities, not fewer. If you can name a virtuoso technician who is dull and impersonal as an interpreter — and I can name many in the opera world — that isn’t BECAUSE of great technique, as some people think. The hard work did not extinguish a flame. Rather, that flame likely was never there, or it burned very low. This is the result of a deficit of imagination, or maybe some walls that are up. This affects hard workers and sloths alike. I don’t know if Jackie Evancho has that “flame” or not, because the way she is singing (again, for the moment I am focusing on interpretation) feels to me like a studied recreation of the same general mood each time. It only aspires to be anodyne, comforting, “pretty,” no matter which song. Take that with the grain of salt that I am judging snippets, but as pieces of these songs play one after another, they tend to run together.
I do like what she does with the U2 song. There are some nice phrases, and she sounds freer and more direct than in most of the others. The original is the only version of this I have heard, so I don’t know if she’s been influenced by someone’s cover. Still, it was the one that made me curious to hear the rest of it, eventually.
They seem to be trying to bury the “little girl” image. Some of her concerts have been promoted (probably independently) with photos of her from when she was much younger. This album cover goes in the other direction, and in my opinion it tries too hard. I don’t care for the photo image, which looks artificial, fussed over. She is made to appear a good deal older than she did recently on AGT or in any candid recent photo I have seen. She isn’t 10 and she also isn’t 25; find the middle ground. However, the concept of it plays to the base, with the rays of sun, the subdued palette, the stoic expression evoking inspirational and worshipful things. It has Christian/mature appeal.
My final verdict from listening and thinking about it is that it will please her fans, and I would recommend it to someone who likes this kind of music and isn’t already listening to her.
I agree that she is being held back a bit but maybe more than that. If her fans think that I am a vicious harpie they should consider that I do believe with the best training she could be much better than what she is.
Already there is the mistake of trying to preach to the choir, having some classical numbers that won’t impress listeners who are used to the greats doing them. As for those who like pop, I imagine these same classical pieces won’t be their cups of tea anyway. There’s really nothing upbeat in the whole collection which may also put people off, not to mention her own peer group.
Obviously choices were made to continue on the same path of a quasi melancholy presentation with that sultry tone, which by the way, would go out the window with a freer technique. It’s just with such a voice suited to high light repertoire, what is the problem with going the way of Patricia Janescova? There is already name reognition with Evancho so her efforts will not be buried.
It looks to me that there is trying to please everyone which in the end will hardly please anyone at all. Another way of putting it is, in the words of one of my teachers: “When you are true to your own voice, it will be true to you”.
CJ,
Those few listener who are used to listening to greats are not her target audience. They are not the ones who will buy her cds or go to her concerts. The problem with going the way of Patricia Janeckova is that it won’t appeal to the masses in the US or worldwide like Jackie’s current style will (murky timber and all). Even more importantly, Jackie isn’t interested in the operatic style for now…..which makes it even more incredible because she can still knock off the socks of most the listening audience when she does try.
Granted if one is true to their voice their voice will be true to them. Its just that not very many people will know about it and even fewer will care. I don’t listen to a voice to find out if the voice cares for the artist. I listen for my own indulgence. So wise words are usually lost on the public when confronted with someone like Jackie. As a matter of fact, most people are bereft of any words when Jackie starts to sing 🙂
Also I am bereft of words as to the recent vid of Your Love. You don’t want to hear what I would have to say about it. Clue: look without listening.
In my opinion there is really no need to hold a large microphone that high or at all unless it is an attempt to mask what is going on behind it. Really, it’s all a big pity and will be compounded now in the heavy concert schedule to come.
CJ,
No surprise at your bereft-ness. Expected and aniticpated. :-). Same as always …. nothing new. And why would anyone want to look and not listen to Jackie. If that was the case then she wouldn’t have had 4 years of touring …. over 100 concerts with only 5 cancelled. Lets not twist facts and say “quite a few”. It was 5.
What is common sense to you is not so to the public or we would have heard of it. What we do hear and you don’t is that she has one of the most beautiful voices that seems to grow in beauty with the passage of time as does she herself. That pretty much is very consistent from any media source these days …. beautiful young lady and beautiful voice !
cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd says.
Another way of putting it is, in the words of one of my teachers: “When you are true to your own voice, it will be true to you”.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#sthash.rRINNsFg.dpuf
Well cabbagejuice if you are being true to you, you are the only one you are being true to, because you post lies about Jackie all the time, like she takes breathes every other note.
If you believe that you are clearly delusional, and if you do not believe it, then you are a habitual liar.
So which is it, are you insane or a liar?
You must be one or the other, you left yourself no middle ground.
Knightlylouse, do you come here to vent your frustrations that you are not normally permitted in your environment?
Please refer to my recent post on the labored breathing and shaking on the notes in Your Love that anyone with a brain between ones ears would be able to distinguish. (Also I do think the lyrics should be vetted for a 14 years old not with a father smiling on the sidelines.)
“Liar or insane”, neither! In fact, when you point a finger at someone three are pointing back. You and you nutty fans just show by the language you use what depraved spirits you are together with being musically deaf.
cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd
Please refer to my recent post on the labored breathing and shaking on the notes in Your Love that anyone with a brain between ones ears would be able to distinguish.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=41109#respond
cabbagejuice my point exactly, you hearing and seeing the labored breathing-breathes every other note, are in your head only, so you are saying you believe your own swill, so you are admitting you are insane. That’s what so many have been telling for at least a year now. And you are getting worse, almost as fast as Jackie improves.
CJ, Jackie Evancho is a musical artist beyond the scope of your ability to understand. Again you attempt to create your own “facts” to fit around your disability. As stated by Jackie herself there is no “tinkering” to her recordings, and only your imagination tells you about live performances you have yet to attend. Jackie allows the classical world and everyone else to witness the gift she brings to music. Four years of music, tours, specials, and millions of admirers attest to the wonder of Jackie Evancho. And, most importantly, those enraptured by her ability to perform live her music to a level beyond what studio recordings could offer. You have spent so much time and effort to disparage and denigrate a little girl who has brought so much joy and happiness to so many. You take offense to others who remind you of your personal disabilities that offer nothing, not once considering how hurtful and offensive your crusade against Jackie Evancho has been. You can certainly stop others from embarrassing you by simply stopping your attacks against a young girl who does not deserve your contempt just because she is beyond the scope of your ability to appreciate. But doing that will also mean confronting another aspect of your condition that has compelled your laser-focus against Jackie Evancho.
If it is beyond my ability to understand, then it is the same with most of the other posters here. But not only that, those who do not flock to her concerts as quite a few of them over the past couple years were cancelled due to poor sales.
As for tinkering, the only claim your little girl (who by the way if she is a high school student would not appreciate being called that given all the adult clothing and makeup she wears) made that autotune was not used but please be assured that everything else was.
It is only commonsense that if she is constantly breathing audibly in the middle of phrases how in the H is she able to sustain the long lines of the Vocalise? Her lack of breath control was demonstrated again on AGT and the recent Your Love where it was painful to watch her craning her neck to the right to achieve the high notes, which by the way are not supported. This will be awful repeated many times over in the upcoming concerts.
But one thing I do understand is the mentality of her nasty fans. You people never grew up. You are living out some Disney illusion and when confronted with reality you can only have tantrums. I’d say grow up but for many of you, if not all, it is too late.
Stephen pointed out, what we all know, that cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd condition prevents her from understanding and accepting Jackie’s musical artist.
STEPHEN RUNNELS SAYS:
September 22, 2014 at 7:37 pm
CJ, Jackie Evancho is a musical artist beyond the scope of your ability to understand.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=41014#respond
In reply to Stephen, cabbagejuice shows her delusions go beyond those she has about Jackie. She imagines there is a group of people on this blog posting support of her rants here. How very sad.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 23, 2014 at 2:42 am
If it is beyond my ability to understand, then it is the same with most of the other posters here.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-41130
cabbagejuice please count how many different people have posted on this article up to this point. Now tell us the number who share your opinions. And so we can check your count, provide the names of those you count as agreeing with you.
I just have one thing to say; move over Dame Kiri, there is a NEW standard of Vocalise now.
Right, the NEW standard – the chopped up, electronically enhanced version of Vocalise that would NOT pass for ANY audition in ANY good music school. In fact her recent live pretentiousThink of Me and maudlin Your Love would NOT pass either. No one is moving over, not even those her age who sing better.
CJ,
Whatever it is chopped version or not, her voice is absolutely stunning ! And its irrelevant whether it will pass any audition since she’s well past the stage of auditioning for anything much less opera. And any school would love to have the beautiful and seasoned soprano, Jackie Evancho, to bless their hallowed halls. But Jackie doesn’t seem to be interested in auditioning or attending any Opera or music school so its a wasted effort to evaluate her. Sounds somewhat like sour grapes 🙂
Listen to her album with a good set of earphones and PJ and any other diva worth her salt will pale into insignificance !
AJ, just because you and some of your old buddies think her singing is the cat’s meow, doesn’t make it objectively good. And as for poor attendance that didn’t result in cancelling for whatever reason, there have been plenty of those in the recent past. Her peers are not going for it nor are seasoned classical listeners. So who are left, sentimental oldsters who enjoy SEEING a young girl serving up warmed over melodrama in so-called classical and popular pieces.
You are simply delusional to imagine that her O Mio Babbino or Ombra Mai Fu that she NEVER sang properly would give her a free pass to a top music school. Sorry, but they already have plenty her age who also have beautiful voices and know how to sing. They might not have the connections or the money yet but they are not putting their voices at risk by singing with BAD technique. They don’t rely on home-spun coaching by someone who allegedly played oboe at one time. This is ridiculous and the results show it.
CJ,
Your objectivity is, unfortunately, very subjective from a classical crossover / pop point of view.
At the risk of repeating myself, again, because you continuously tend to ignore the obvious. Jackie has performed over 100 concerts with 5 cancellations and the after two years of the same concert tour by a 12, 13 year old classical crossover, the tail end of her tour showed weaker numbers than those from 2 years ago. Now that should make complete sense but for some reason you fail to comprehend that or even remember it. Why?
And those plenty of young girls who are protecting their voice …. from who exactly ? Well most of them are singing to themselves and most of the public will never hear them. So yes they are already well protected from anyone hearing them. They can all have their voices to themselves.
As to how the album will fare, too early to say. Care to bet against Jackie??? 🙂
I wouldn’t care to bet on the album but what is more predictable, a heavy schedule singing through full concerts with bad technique. This repertoire is much more difficult than the Silver Screen (for the Silver Haired presumably).
As for “most of them singing for themselves”, that is not true. There are plenty of opportunities, maybe not so much with the glitz and hype, to sing with orchestras, opera, musical theatre, recitals and other venues.
CJ,
No doubt the repertoire is much more challenging on Awakening than it was on SFTSS but then she is not 12 either. She’s 14. That may not be much different but for Jackie and her voice, thats a huge progression in development.
Yes there are opportunities for others her age at recitals and what not but they pale in comparison to Jackie’s phenomenal career.
To put things in perspective about Jackie, she’s got a beautiful voice and can outsing not only most in her age group but most adults. She can easily handle complex songs in 5 languages. What remains controversial for some and only a few “some” is technique. The bone of contention is that without professional training, technique cannot be developed or improved upon. For most, the wait is over because there was never a wait. For those who still question and critique the technique, it will never be over. Fortunately, those of the technique are few and far between.
The evangelical tone of yours and other posts by fans has to do with ‘you gotta believe’ and to take everything on faith, only we’re not talking about God or the angels.
You wrote: “she.. can outsing not only most in her age group but most adults.”
I was holding this back but now do not feel so constrained as you asked for it. Your Love was really bad vocally in the way it was contrived to produce the tones. You might like the end product but you didn’t hear the shaking on the ends of the (not so long) notes. The neck craning was equally ridiculous and the gasping for breath is not better but worse than most singers who take their profession seriously.
“She can easily handle complex songs in 5 languages.”
Well, why don’t we start with English that has such sloppy preparation and even her fans remarked about her poor diction. The funny thing about yesterday’s “find-a you” was doing what non-native speakers might do in English. Italians in particular when they sing in English or German for that matter have to guard against making a syllable out of a final consonant. In Italian she was studiously rolling flipped single r’s that need to be distinguished from double r’s.
Over pronunciation is a sure mark of ignorance or simply not having proper coaching. Putting this all on the stage and saying how great is not just silly but delusional. It’s cringeworthy to imagine this multiplied by 8 or 9 pieces in a program, 4 times a month.
cabbagejuice,
If you just stuck to your simple opinion, that Jackie is talented, passionate & unpolished, fine. I also agree with your comment about her over-rolled single R’s, between vowels, in the middle of words. She gets other bits of Italian wrong, too.
I even agree that Jackie would benefit from teaching/training/coaching. Yes, I recognize that they’re 3 different things, but they do overlap. I believe that ALL performers, including singers, musicians, dancers, actors, all kinds of athletes, whatever, will benefit from good coaching, training & teaching.
But your persistent perseverations, that there’s been NO improvement in Jackie’s singing, apparently blind you to the obvious. In Over the Rainbow, sung at the Songwriters’ Hall of Fame, even in the brief available clip, Jackie put in appoggiature. Jackie had never sung an appoggiatura before, or at least hadn’t recorded it. Not once. Yet you didn’t notice something SO basic & obvious, a clear, newly-acquired skill?
You criticise Jackie’s “shaking at the ends of notes,” but what that’s called is “pop-style vibrato” (as opposed to operatic vibrato, which is generally present throughout the note). The note starts off with no vibrato, which is only added at the end. Jackie’s vibrato is true, it’s not “shaking” in any sense.(I could point you to shaking if you want, though you probably wouldn’t like it.)
You insist her breath support hasn’t improved, evidently unaware of how much better it is now than a year or two ago, when she was trying to work through the worst of adolescence. She’s still working at it. Give her time. Maybe she should do pilates & 500 sit-ups daily, LOL.
It’s like one of our previous conversations, when your evident assumption that a Jackie fan couldn’t POSSIBLY know what he was talking about *evidently* blinded you to the question of whether a singer was singing above or below the passaggio. Help me out: how could any singing teacher be unaware of whether a soprano or tenor (the facher most likely to be doing both) was singing above or below the passaggio?
When I pointed out that Beniamino Gigli sang “…lo dirò” above the passaggio, & “quando la luce…” below the passaggio, & made it incredibly obvious, you said it was (quote-unquote) “nothing” – NOTHING! Huh??? Of course sometimes, classical singers are so good that it’s difficult to tell, but that’s extremely rare (yes, Jackie is sometimes that good). Gigli made it blindingly obvious, as most singers do.
Yet you’re evidently absolutely wedded to the idea that Jackie is terrible & hasn’t improved, & that her fans are ignorant fools. It’s like an idée fixe, sending you all over the web to drop bombs, blinding you to any objective appreciation of Jackie’s singing. And you evidently think we’re the blind ones!
Again, please help me out: what singing teacher is unaware that a singer has added appoggiature to her skill set? What singing teacher hears “no” improvement in breath support as a singer works her way through adolescence, & the improvement is obvious to others? What singing teacher can’t tell the different between pop vibrato & a shake? What singing teacher is unaware of whether a singer is singing above or below the passaggio?
BTW, I’d be happy to supply multiple links if you need them.
Laptop, in the words of Alexander Pope, “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, drink deep or drink not of the Pierian spring” applies to those who suddenly think they become experts because they discovered a few words.
To sing a flipped note, or “leaning” one as the word “appoggia” means, is not a big deal at all, not a skill to write home or brag about on the internet. One doesn’t add “appoggiature” to one’s “skill set” and shout “bravo”. Any singer is able to do that like any medium trained pianist can play a grace note. (Incidentally, she might have picked that up when copying Dion for “Vie en Rose”)
The funny part of it, is Jackie, according to you guys, is supposed to be a fully formed singer who will cause Kiri to “move over” in the words of one of your fellow fans. Please refer to my recent post why this will not happen now nor in the near future. One does not come to sing in public until the BASIC problems are solved. This should be commonsense even to non-musicians. It should be possible to understand that bad habits will only compound themselves.
Instead, people like you try to quote the professional jargon without the background to fully understand.
Honestly, I don’t know what you are talking about now with Gigli. You think because you picked up a few concepts along the way, you can put them in larger perspective and call what I say “typical BS”. It would be the same for pooh-poohing a doctor’s knowledge because you learned a few new words.
And now down to reality compared to the ideal recording:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYHno_M4Ry4
Why I sincerely doubt Jackie at this point can sing the Vocalise with proper breath support: In the three parts of this song she is breathing high, takes an audible gulp at 1:31, 2:24 and 3:08. She cranes her neck to the right to produce the high notes at 1:34, 2:33, and 3:17. The notes are shaking at 1:23, 2:40, 2:49, etc. These are not all but the jaw shakes as well at 1:38. Taking the latter into account, I simply don’t buy that it is “pop-style vibrato” that her lips are also trembling at times. It is simply bad technique that she can really smile at the end because of all the positive feedback she gets from those who don’t know a thing about singing.
OK, these are the choices she, her family and fans made but please don’t try to convince anyone who knows what singing can and should be. The latter might return as an unwanted boomerang because now it is really chancy to continue with such difficult repertoire without the basic tools to approach it.
cabbagejuice,
The irony here is that I actually do agree with you in the basics of some of your criticisms. We raised the head tilt question elsewhere a year or two ago, but were told by the Evanchos that it was “no problem” (apparently after they’d consulted their professionals – or at least that was my impression, given how definitive they were in answering – I could be wrong, though).
I’ve always agreed that good coaching (including training & teaching) would benefit Jackie (as it would any performer), not harm her. Nor would I say that Jackie is somehow perfect, or that she makes all other singers irrelevant. I personally enjoy the beauty of her voice, but that’s just a subjective impression; not everyone does.
I even agree with you that appoggiature are not that difficult to add for most singers. But I did notice that Jackie used them, for the 1st time, during her rendition of Over the Rainbow.
Where did she learn them? IDK, but I wouldn’t presume to say she got the idea from Céline Dion or any other particular singer. She’s worked with a lot of the best people in the music industry, & has a much broader experience than is obvious. If she didn’t, she wouldn’t have hired the versatile Peter Kiesewalter as her new music director.
What I mean about Gigli is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru8Lf_SAPIo
Don’t you hear the change in timbre at ~1:10? Again, he sings “…lo dirò” above the passaggio & “quando la luce…” below the passaggio. Isn’t this something you’d automatically be aware of when you’re listening to a singer?
That’s not to say I don’t enjoy Gigli’s overall excellent performance here. It’s just that his register changes are obvious. One of the objects of classical singing is to make them sound similar (“blended”), & some singers are better than others at doing it. Surely it’s not unreasonable to recognise this, is it?
Jackie’s chin waggle is intermittent & is more prominent when she’s nervous (as she told us she was during her recent AGT performance). She’s able to generate vibrato without it. It’s not a “shake.” Certainly there are opera & other classical singers whose vibrato is so “shaky” that it’s difficult to tell if they’re generating vibrato or a trill. Jackie doesn’t show that confusion.
I do recognize that musical terminology is not agreed by everyone. Some say a Baroque shake is identical to a modern trill; others say it’s not. It’s like the differences between glissando & portamento; the terms are discrete for some, but others blur the distinction. But again, Jackie doesn’t have any sort of “shake.”
A year or two ago, when Jackie was going through the worst changes of adolescence, her high notes were flat, thin & unsupported. Her breath support has improved dramatically since then. Not acknowledging this is unfair to Jackie & is a distortion of reality. I think a balanced approach is much more reasonable.
Laptop, I don’t know whether you consider me a yoyo. After some forms of address you use, I am supposed to be civil and answer your questions? If they are posted in good faith, I will, but please refrain from writing what I say or do is “typical BS” or what kind of lousy teacher I must be.
Now, to answer you points, why do you think that 14 1/2 is over the main vocal hurdles of adolescence and should be able to tackle difficult repertoire? Traditionally one waits until the age of 17-18 for any kind of settling in. Until then conventional wisdom is to tread carefully. I don’t know why I am giving out free information here but breathing low would solve a LOT of problems.
Grace notes are not really a big deal and in fact, you should check out Jackie’s “la Vie en Rose” the little flip on “moi” copied EXACTLY from Dion. “Somewhere over the Rainbow” was not the first time she premiered that.
I listened to Gigli again and now with the score in front of me, I still cannot imagine in tarnation what you are going on about. “Sulla tua bocca lo dirò” is a rise from E4 to A4. After is what you claim is a change in register, and it seems to me you are taking it as some kind of fault, that I will now demonstrate it is far from it: “quando la luce” F#4, D4 to A3.
OK, speaking as a soprano, but this is the case in any voice when you are singing high, you usually calibrate the notes around the most important note, here the long A, in quality. This is similar to string players avoiding changing strings to homogenize a melody or passage. The next short phrase features more the octave drop to A3 already in the chesty voice, so the color, yes indeed, is darker. What the heck is wrong with that? In fact, it is 100% correct.
Going into such detail shows what work is invested in a relatively short aria that little moppets can come out and wow everyone (well, not everyone).
When listening to this again with the score it occured to me that the high tessitura must be easier than a semitone down that would expose the nasty F’s and E’s that lie on the cracks for both tenors and sopranos. Puccini knew what he was doing and so did Gigli. Trust me, and them.
Laptop, I was rereading your post and as I have time now, not later, I will attend to the points missed first time around.
While it is possible for pop music or CC to have a vibrato as a kind of effect, these are used sparsely, or should be. Shaking at the ends of tones because of a lack of muscular support is something else. Also, I suspect that older singers towards the ends of their careers have more of that type of vibrato.because they can’t help it. An alternative to coloring the tones by vibrating them is using a swell: cresc, or decresc. Admittedly this requires more control and training than just holding a note. It is an important discipline to be able to sustain a long even tone just as string players practice bowings on one note alone.
True, the “trill” in Baroque terminology is “shake”. They had plenty more ornaments than we do now in singing and instrumental playing. Carl Phillip Emanuel, the son of JS Bach, complied a fairly large list that was about to be diminshed greatly in the up and coming Classical style. Nevermind.
Any opera singer whose single notes sound like shakes are not singing properly, period. There are two defects that I kind of remember before explaining to you, “vibrato” which is too fast an oscillation and “wobble” which is too slow, heard among ageing basses and baritones, unfortunately. A trill, of course, as with instrumentalists can be an oscillation of a half tone or whole. These have to be practiced assiduously before mastering them. Some singers seemed to have trouble for one reason or another. Sometimes Callas had a weird trill as in the ‘Bolero” from Vespri Siciliani, but not always, and less strange in her younger years.
Portamento is different from glissando in the latter shows all the notes, whether diatonic, chromatic or every acoustic pitch in between but a portamento slides over the intervening notes and features the starting and ending one. Funny, I remember a ‘cellist from Russia who said they were allowed to use portamento in certain orchestral music but that was a old tradition and he was already elderly 20 years ago. Oh well.
I must admit that I am puzzled to hear from fans that Jackie’s lower register is richer and fuller. If she would take away the microphone from her lips then maybe a person like myself can tell. But knowing her voice now for a few years, I don’t think she will ever have a rich lower register. This is not a bad thing in itself, as coloraturas usually miss the chest tones that the rest of us sopranos and mezzos have. Their compensation is being able to sing repertoire we can’t like Queen of the Night and Zerbinetta. Maybe I covered evrything by now…
Laptop, I thought it was strange at first after going through so much trouble to answer your questions that you did not acknowledge what I wrote in good faith even after you insulted me by saying that I have something wrong with my hearing. Instead, I am informed that I was led yet again into the traps of the Jackie vultures. You don’t want information from me, you would rather have stroking and if you don’t get it, you deem it cruel.
All I need to do is make a word search on this article alone and there pops up ‘liar’ and ‘lying’ quite a few times from your other little friend. This can be seen as libelious when it happens so much like a knee jerk reaction whenever you are frustrated. I should warn you four comrades in arms that I do not regard defamation of character or profession lightly particularly in a public forum. You got away with so much on this blog like saying I have Aspergers’, am delusional plus plenty more, but don’t think I don’t have my limits for what I am going to endure without acting. Saying these things on public forums can compromise my earning and hiring, so you could be hurting my business.
You may not emerged from a teenage fan worship stage but the real world penalizes behavior like this.
cabbagejuice,
You seem to have multiple misconceptions. Did I say that 14-1/2 was over the vocal hurdle of adolescence? No. What I said is that I can hear definite improvement over where she was a year or so ago, when adolescent changes were more painfully obvious. Her high notes are no longer thin, flat & unsupported. She even overcompensates at times now.
I also didn’t comment on her repertoire, or how old she should be to sing certain things. Perhaps others did. I do think there’s no magic of one song over another. They require certain ranges, phrasing, jumps in pitch, etc.
As far as appoggiature, after listening to La Vie En Rose again, they’re present in several places; “moi” is the least prominent. They’re in different places than Dion puts them (except for “moi” – but I find their versions quite different). If Jackie wasn’t certain how to sing something on LVER, Jumaane was right across the room. Why would she go look at a video of Céline when Jumaane, & the director for that matter, were right there?
We’ll have to agree to disagree about “shaking at the ends of tones because of a lack of muscular support”; you evidently think Jackie does this. I do not. I’d remind you of how much better her breath support is now. In fact, in one concert (Miami, IIRC) you can hear the 1st Ab5 of MOTN sound very “floaty,” with the 2nd one fully supported – in the same song.
Again, there are disagreements about what “tremolo” (which I THINK you meant when you said “vibrato… is too fast an oscillation”) & “wobble” mean. People use them in very different ways.
For an instrumental musician, tremolo is oscillating, varying (sometimes pulsing) volume without changing pitch. An older singer may have a too-fast “vibrato” which is really like an essential tremor (common in the elderly) of the voice, & this can also be called tremolo.
I would call a “wobble” not too slow an oscillation, but too wide (i.e., too much change in pitch). Obviously many older singers get this, but Maria Callas had it at around 30. Very unpleasant to my ears (JMHO).
We agree about trills, & that Puccini & Gigli knew what they were doing, as did CPE Bach. However, we’ll have to agree to disagree about register & timbre changes.
I would also question whether a singer’s body type is absolutely determinative as to her fach. Will Jackie be a light soprano, possibly a coloratura, as she gets older? Maybe. Time will tell. I’m not going to make up my mind beforehand, though.
I did NOT accuse you of having Asperger on this blog. I didn’t tell you how you should or should not appreciate music. It’s true that we hear different things, but as I said, we have to agree to disagree about some things.
If you’re getting me mixed up with another Jackie fan, you’re incorrect. But if you group us all together, doesn’t that seem a bit unfair? I have no clue who my “other little friend” or “four comrades in arms” are. There are limits as to what I post. I know your name, but would I post it? NEVER – unless you said it was OK.
As far as insulting you, you seem to have NO trouble insulting me. If you try to be civil, I will try to do the same. I don’t need any stroking, BTW. But I do believe that students respond to toughness as well as encouragement, probably a different mix for each student, but you are obviously free to have your own opinion about that.
Sometime perhaps you’ll explain why you so assiduously leave comments about Jackie in multiple places on the web, e.g. on YouTube. There are lots of singers I don’t care for, but I don’t go around to their sites leaving negative comments. Perhaps that’s a discussion for another time.
cabbagejuice,
I forgot to comment on a couple of things. I agree with you 100% about the difference between portamento & glissando. However, the clarinet part at the start of Gershwin’s Rhapsody In Blue is often called a glissando when it is clearly portamento, given the wide pitch range it slides over without stopping at the notes in between. Jackie uses them both at the end of her version of The Lord’s Prayer.
I was unaware of the Baroque ornamentations compiled by CPE Bach & will look for them when I get a chance.
BTW, even though we disagree about a number of things, I do believe that sometimes people go too far with you here. There was a time some months ago when someone claimed s/he’d seen you in recital (piano, voice or both?) some years before. This person went on to be quite critical. It did seem like it was OTT & excessively personal.
So when we disagree, I’ll attempt (perhaps not always successfully) to be civil & avoid making it personal.
Laptop, first of all this Puccini/Gigli business – if you listened to Nessun Dorma done by him without the very partial knowledge there should be some kind of rule about equalizing the registers, you wouldn’t have thought twice about it. I assure you that you are 100% incorrect in your conclusion: “Aha, see that singer is supposed to be so great and yet we can hear a change in texture, so what the H are they going on about Jackie Evancho, no one is perfect!”
You misapplied what you thought is a rule, if equalization of the registers were an absolute concept, then there would be no possibility of the infinite colors that Callas spoke about. Further to that particular place, that F#4 at the “diro”, is the end of a phrase, naturally less in sound and articulation, where the preceding A4 is featured. “Quando” at the next F# is correctly emphasized by him in a more speaking manner. As the phrase will span a descending 6th, it is darker in tone – 100% correct! It is like he sang the first phrase on the A string and the second one on the D string. I use this analogy all the time in my teaching and kindly too. So you have a colossal nerve in saying I am cruel and have problems in listening.
Further to Callas and soprano repertoire, it would be like singing D4 in “toujours la mort” in the card scene in Carmen that requires an ultra sombre tone, whereas the same note tripping down some Mozartean or Handelian scale would be light. My teacher from the Bolshoi Opera likened this color mixing to light and dark coffee. Now someone like you comes along and makes a mountain from a molehill, a false one to boot, and if you don’t agree with him, you are a nasty person! You know more than the two opera tenors: Gigli and Khromchenko!
As for Jackie, your saying her top has become stronger, is nonsense. It would if it had support but she is still floating the tones and this is why her registers are not joined. The lower middle range is still manipulated (a reason BTW that she may not like her own voice as she said) and the top is hooty except for when it is electronically enhanced. The lack of support is why the notes plus her lips and jaw tremble at the ends of tones. This kind of vibrato should be used sparsely if at all. The other younger singers don’t do it.
As for La Vie en Rose, she copied it before she sang it with Jermaine, probably going over it at least 50x until she could reproduce it like she did with the Dormi Jesu done by Battle and Think of Me done by Rossum. Learning by copying will not impart a good technique, however. There are limits to that system and it is already cracking seeing the live perfomances that have the SAME unsolved vocal and muscular problems.
And wearily, the terminology I mentioned was how it applied to singing – tremolo and wobble. But really I should not be so kind as to go out of my way to explain anything to a person who goes behind my back in bad faith, twists what I say and sneers at me. I could say the same about a physician who never treated me and that I have no personal knowledge if and say his bedside manner sucks.
I don’t care to have a discussion about anything with you much less telling you why I do comment on some youtube videos, not all. There may be someone like myself, a voice in the wilderness of raving Jackie nasties, so I might go and support him or her – none of YOUR business!
CJ,
I’m not evangelical, Christian or even religious :-).
You were holding back ??? LOL !! Why?
I think everyone knows that you are going to lash out sooner or later. No surprise at all.
Your assertion that Jackie’s faults are blatantly apparent to anyone and everyone is WRONG!
Most people including the media, industry professionals, fans and non fans alike are enthralled and enchanted by her voice. So many people can’t be wrong. The majority rules as do my ears. I love what I hear like everyone else. There is no better expert than mine own two ears 🙂
Awakening has just been released today, and the response already has been overwhelmingly positive. Today is most certainly “Jackie Evancho Day” for the millions of people Jackie has touched with her music and incredible voice. With the exception of one hateful detractor with an Asperger’s inspired cognitive dissonance regarding Jackie Evancho, even critics will allow Jackie and her fans her day to celebrate.
CJ – I enjoy reading your studied responses to these posts but I fear that your Herculean attempt to disabuse the Jackie fans of their idolatry is futile. Like a schizophrenic patient who thinks he’s Jesus Christ, any attempt to convince him otherwise will only result in him digging deeper into his disturbed psyche to prove that YOU are the mistaken one, thereby solidifying the delusion. While I’m not in any way suggesting that JE fans are psychotic (they are not) the same psychological mechanism seems to be at work here.
On the lighter side, there’s the guy who claims he reads Playboy because of the good articles in it. Ask him what other periodicals with good, substantive articles he reads (I’ve done this) and he’s lost for the name of one.
Keep up the good work. You’re exposing more that you realize, I think.
Kathleen,
Perhaps you can enlighten an ignoramus like me and a few others as to what exactly CJ is exposing about a now 14 year old artist that seems to miss the majority of the listening public. What dastardly secret is it that the public is ignorant of that could totally alter the future of Jackie Evancho and her illustrious career.
So far CJ is in battle with the public that doesn’t have a clue of the technical mumbo jumbo that has been repeated for 4 years …. execpt CJ’s assertion that the “little upstart” of 10 years old would amount to nothing after her 15 mintues of fame …. a flash in the pan.
Yet, here we stand after 4 years …. I’m sure I don’t need to list the accomplishments of the “little upstart”. A quick review of her Wiki page tells a truer tale than I could :-).
Yes indeed … keep up the good work … the only proves how resilient and gifted that said “upstart” really is !! 🙂
By the way I highly recommend her new album – Awakening. Take a listen and enjoy the moment !
What do I think is CJ is exposing? I’ll let you figure that out. Boy, this is really getting exciting!
Hi Kathy, I’ll answer you first to remind myself there are still sane people in the world. Right away, I am aware of the psychological mechanism at work and an fully aware of what I am exposing. It’s fairly simple, anti-intellectualism.
Those who never heard of vocalise, passaggio, appoggiatura, o mio babbino, etc. have suddenly become experts thanks to that petite girl (not little anymore) who is cocking a snook at the snooty opera establishment.
This is Mighty Mouse fighting the Big Cat all over again, except these people are in the main, elderly male adults who really don’t need to be so insanely defensive about what they like musically, that is, if it stops there and has little to do with her appearance and how it affects them. They also come gang-like to any site that has a hint of negativity so in the end they will try to outnumber those critics. As you see, most classical listeners couldn’t care less about an electronically enhanced CD whose Vocalise by Rachmaninoff will not send Kiri or Moffo running for cover. Simply put, that piece is intended for a restrained, fully supported voice that can distribute the breath like stretching a roll of dough until it becomes transparent without any holes. No serious musician gives a damn if a kid wants to piece together la-la-la while electronically covering up the breathing. As an example they might understand would be dancing Swan Lake or Giselle but forgetting to put on pointe shoes. I will try to demonstrate just where the holes in breathing are in my next post which makes it highly unlikely that the CD they are raving about is an honest depction of someone’s actual singing.
CJ,
In your response to Laptop and to Kathleen, I see condescension, arrogance, shakiing of the finger and admonishment and a whole lot of pooh paah and huff and puff. But the house still stands, so do the fans and Jackie Evancho continues to sing and move forward.
IF with all her bad technique she can sound this good, I can’t even begin to imagine how good she would be with proper technique. I mean look at all the so called girls in conservatories practising hours on end every day for decades and then fading into obscurity….except of course for the very few that will be granted approval by the mighty Opera Tribunal to futher pursue their career because they have mastered the technique even if they haven’t mastered anything else.
AJ – In no way did I sense any condescension or finger wagging in CJ’s response to me. But thanks for proving my point.
Exactly, Kathleen, I am supposed to absorb comments like these as though there is no condescension or depreciation of my own skills or profession:
Laptop: “what singing teacher is unaware that a singer has added appoggiature to her skill set? What singing teacher hears “no” improvement in breath support as a singer works her way through adolescence, & the improvement is obvious to others? What singing teacher can’t tell the different between pop vibrato & a shake? What singing teacher is unaware of whether a singer is singing above or below the passaggio?” – See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-41215
KATHLEEN MCCARTHY SAYS:
September 24, 2014 at 8:59 am
AJ – In no way did I sense any condescension or finger wagging in CJ’s response to me. But thanks for proving my point.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=41226#respond
And what point is that, Kathleen? Other than you share cabbagejuice’s obsession. The fact you are unable to see anything right in front you, nor comprehend what is written, or admit it’s truth, seems to verify that. cabbagejuice comments were nothing but 100% condescension and finger wagging.
And as always, irrelevant.
Kathleen,
“AJ – In no way did I sense any condescension or finger wagging in CJ’s response to me. But thanks for proving my point.”
At the risk of sounding rude ….
Well duh ! That’s pretty obvious though what is not obvious is exactly what point it is I proved.
Kathleen, I do believe it is prudent not to answer Knightlylouse and AJ. The much awaited Awakening didn’t turn out to be the Second Coming. Some of the fans with nothing better to do are still trying to spread the Gospel of the Evancholists.
Most people don’t care one way or another as you can see from the responses here, the reason that Knightly thinks they “won” if there are more of them posting now. Of course not! If the recording were that great, it would have been more than noticed and commented on.
CJ,
I like the way you come up with these stories and present them as facts.
For instance, you read on Amazon that some fans are concerned about Jackie’s cd sales while others say they think this should be a smash hit.
So here you come and say “The much awaited Awakening didn’t turn out to be Second Coming ……. etc ” :-).
You forgot to mention also that those comments refer to only the first day’s sales and they are estimates.
Out of curiosity, where do you find all these fans who think she is the Second Coming ….
If you spend time on the fan FB pages, which is where her most ardent fans are, even they don’t expect platinum sales on this CD. They love the CD of course and think it will be a great hit but which ardent fan of any artist would not think that even if for a moment.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS: September 23, 2014 at 2:42 am If it is beyond my ability to understand, then it is the same with most of the other posters here.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=41323#respond
Here cabbagejuice is lying, by saying most of the other posters here agree with her.
It was such a clear and obvious lie that I called her out on it. Twice ! Of course she had to let my response to her lie pass both time to avoid bring even more attention to the her lying.
She want to add validity to her inane rants by claiming the rants were supported by more people than they are.
Which she thought would make her the winner.
But now that I took that pipe dream away from her, she comes out with this nonsense….
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 24, 2014 at 4:14 pm
Most people don’t care one way or another as you can see from the responses here, the reason that Knightly thinks they “won” if there are more of them posting now.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=41323#respond
OMG. How sad it that.
AJ, isn’t there more than a little cognitive dissonance when claims are made such as “millions of admirers attest to the wonder of Jackie Evancho” and these millions are not knocking themselves over to buy the latest recording? In your own words: “most ardent fans…don’t expect platinum sales on this CD”.
The rest of the world outside your relatively small fan base when compared to “millions” must be suffering from the Stephen Runnels syndrome of not being able to appreciate music due to being empathy deficient:
SR: “The negative responses…stem from your lack of understanding and acceptance of your lack of empathy to not only Jackie and her music, but to everyone here and various YT videos.”
There is a psychological condition marked by delusions of grandiosity:
SR: “Those of us who consider Jackie Evancho as “The Voice” of the 21st century are growing at an exponential rate.”
And of course if you don’t agree with them, YOU must be crazy:
Knightlylouse: “I have noted a mark decline in her ability to remain rational. Lately it is much too easy to rattle her, and now she often makes completely foolish statements she would never have made a year ago.”
CJ,
Can you show me where these claims of millions of followers waiting to buy Jackie’s albums, came from. Your dissonance is from your own imagination. No one on facebook claimed there’s milions of followers lining up. People have expressed a wish that she sells well and people have said that they hope her album is going to be a smash hit but I have yet to hear anyone say that there are millions of people waiting to buy her albums.
And what is wrong with fans calling her the Voice of a Generation. You don’t agree big deal but why would you despise fans for saying it. Why would you even be spending time talking about Jackie Evancho when she holds no interest for you:-)
AJ, you can have your opinion and I can have mine but you and your friends cannot stand the fact that mine is an informed one and yours are not. It is easy enough to find out my name and where I work on this blog alone, so I am not just an empty moniker. Opinion is non-prosecutable but gratutious insults are with the intent of malice. So you and your gang should really get your acts together – cease and desist!
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 25, 2014 at 5:52 am
“…………” bla bla bla, and bla bla bla, more of the same irrelevant rants, and then adds,… “And of course if you don’t agree with them, YOU must be crazy:…”
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#sthash.83IRAITR.dpuf
No cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd there is nothing crazy about not agreeing, it is your actions that mark you as being crazy, not your opinions.
She ends this posted rant quoting me, she got my name wrong it is KnightlyOnce,…
“Knightlylouse: “I have noted a mark decline in her ability to remain rational. Lately it is much too easy to rattle her, and now she often makes completely foolish statements she would never have made a year ago.”
cabbagejuice that comment is a straight and honest observation.
Just read your own comments on this article alone. How many of our comments you have posted here are beneath you?
Please seek professional help.
As day follows night, there should be some correlation between the lavish hyperbole and reality. Sample from SR: “You avoid recognizing that the millions of Jackie fans around the world benefit tremendously from her music as Jackie benefits from her fans.” – See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-41406
So one can assume those countless beneficiaries would rise up and support the person who gave them so much, not who just buy a record as in the case of Amira, the cute kid sounding like an adult is a passing fad.
I told you before my interest is musical. It happens to fall in line with what I do.
CJ,
Let me understand this. You’re saying that SR speaks in hyperbole but you’re going to take it as literal even though you don’t believe it and use it to support your statement to prove how Jackie is failing in her career.
Nice … 🙂
By the way, I guess you’re saying that all the adulation and recognition that Jackie is getting from the industry professionals, producers, agents, etc is all teen worship. You do understand that anyone hearing that from you only has to listen / watch one single performance from Jackie to realize how idiotic that sounds. She is among the few in the industry today that most people are awed by her talent and she is widely recognized as the few people that possess true raw talent. She’s often referred to as being gifted !
Unless your first name is “Cabbage” and your last name is “Juice”, I don’t see how anything said on this forum or elsewhere is going to impact your professional or acedemic career. The fact that you are a music teacher is by your own admission which could be tantamount to my saying “I’m the Wizard of Oz”. In other word, I am what I tell you I am on the internet.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 25, 2014 at 7:51 am
As day follows night,
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-41448
…there will be repeated rants from cabbagejuice,
before the sun is allowed to set again.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 24, 2014 at 5:44 am
This is Mighty Mouse fighting the Big Cat all over again, except these people are in the main, elderly male adults who really don’t need to be so insanely defensive about what they like musically, that is, if it stops there and has little to do with her appearance and how it affects them.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-41143
cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd/Kathleen more bald face lies from you, you are well aware that Jackie’s fan base is 63% women, but you stick to your lie.
Not at all surprising. Nor is it surprising that you did not reply to my last post.
Stephen pointed out, what we all know, that cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd condition prevents her from understanding and accepting Jackie’s musical artist.
STEPHEN RUNNELS SAYS:
September 22, 2014 at 7:37 pm
CJ, Jackie Evancho is a musical artist beyond the scope of your ability to understand.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=41014#respond
In reply to Stephen, cabbagejuice shows her delusions go beyond those she has about Jackie. She imagines there is a group of people on this blog posting support of her rants here. How very sad.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 23, 2014 at 2:42 am
If it is beyond my ability to understand, then it is the same with most of the other posters here.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-41130
cabbagejuice please count how many different people have posted on this article up to this point. Now tell us the number who share your opinions. And so we can check your count, provide the names of those you count as agreeing with you.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=41214#respond
Kathleen,
“I let you figure that out.”
That’s a great way of saying, “I don’t have an answer” or “I’m clueless.” Great strategy …. exciting strategy !
Kathleen, cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd by repeating the same irrelevant rants thousands of times on hundreds of site for going on 4 years is exposing how severe her obsession is, and how greatly it has affected her, especially during this past year. I have been exchanging barbs with her for at least 2 years and I have noted a mark decline in her ability to remain rational. Lately it is much too easy to rattle her, and now she often makes completely foolish statements she would never have made a year ago.
This montage is from one of Jackie’s German fans. He is a wedding photographer;
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2189809/Voorbeeld%20slideshow%20bruiloft%20your%20love.mp4
catman,
I hope that the photographer had permission from his subjects to put their photos into a montage for a Jackie video. One wouldn’t THINK they’d object, but one never knows. It did look like lots of joyful people.
CJ,
“AJ, you can have your opinion and I can have mine but you and your friends cannot stand the fact that mine is an informed one and yours are not.”
You can’t possibly know my friends. I’ve never mentioned them and I’ve never spoken about them. But I gather this is all about you and you and you and you….
Is that confidence or conceit. :-). I’ve never challenged your technical expertise … just your perceptions and your negativity directed at “the voice of the 21st century. Your knowledge may be infallible (I know its not) but your perspective is not.
“It is easy enough to find out my name and where I work on this blog alone, so I am not just an empty moniker.”
I have no clue what your real name is and even less interest in what it really is. At this point better to be an empty moniker than one that is constantly mocked. Of course if one is hankering and begging for attention then maybe not.
“Opinion is non-prosecutable but gratutious insults are with the intent of malice. So you and your gang should really get your acts together – cease and desist! – See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#sthash.SDsajd3O.dpuf. ”
Unless you have a lot of money and a lot of time any lawyer will tell you that you are going to have one heck of a time proving malice to a moniker and how that moniker impacts your personal and professional life negatively. Good Luck !
What you’re saying is unethical behavior that would not be normally tolerated in public.can operate without fear of retribution when it is done under a pseudonym on the internet. I would really like to see JJ telling someone to his face on the street that he is ranting, crazy and should seek professinal help, which he has been doing practically everday here. What makes it all the more cowardly is that I am a woman. Which brings me to the next point, why are you and your “friends”, meant in the sense that you act like a gang, going on about the same things all the time? You don’t provide any useful information but use your privilege of posting to diss others who don’t agree with you.
You enjoy a recording, like the singer, so that should be the end of it, not unless you have nothing better to do but pick fights.
cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd What you are saying is unethical behavior that would not be tolerated in public, but here you operate without fear of retribution under a pseudonym on the internet.
What makes it all the more cowardly is that the person you are attacking is minor child, and you are a grown woman, a supposed professional.
Which brings me to the next point, why are you and your “friends” (meant in the sense that you act like a gang), going on about the same things all the time? You don’t provide any useful information but use your privilege of posting to diss others with whom you don’t agree. You don’t enjoy a recording, or don’t like the singer, that should be the end of it, unless you have nothing better to do but pick fights.
CJ,
“What you’re saying is unethical behavior that would not be normally tolerated in public.can operate without fear of retribution when it is done under a pseudonym on the internet. ”
You can’t be serious 🙂 LOL !! You claim to be a music teacher, a soprano, an opera expert and tear at a 14 year old gifted artist but don’t think its unethical. You think it would be tolerated in public without fear of retribution because it is done under a pseudonym on the internet. That’s just great ! What logic.
“What makes it all the more cowardly is that I am a woman. Which brings me to the next point, why are you and your “friends”, meant in the sense that you act like a gang, going on about the same things all the time? You don’t provide any useful information but use your privilege of posting to diss others who don’t agree with you. ”
Really? At this junction you are pleading the “weaker sex” defense. Amusing. Let me disabuse you of the notion that my friends are party to whatever you allege I’m doing. Not my business what others are doing. I roll alone:-).
Repeating the same thing for four years is tantamount to providing junk … meaning you provide the same rhetoric and add nothing of value to the discussion other than your vitriol which I don’t need to provide any evidence of since anyone with two grey cells in a cavernous head could see by just reading your posts.
“You enjoy a recording, like the singer, so that should be the end of it, not unless you have nothing better to do but pick fights.”
You don’t enjoy the recording, don’t like the voice say your piece and that should be the end of it. Unless of course you have nothing better to do in which case I would suggest seeking professional help. You can interpret that any way you want.
Constructive criticism is not gratuitous name calling or depreciations of someone’s profession just because you don’t like the diagnoses.
I already wrote seemingly decisions were made to continue in this stream, to have a young adolescent sing professionally with an unsettled technique although conventional wisdom is 180 degrees to the contrary.
If there weren’t any music teachers to point this out, the only ones who can, no one would be confronted with it and could continue happily onwards. However, some of us feel the need to warn of danger that entails a bit of explanation that people like you would rather put stoppers in your ears and instead shoot the messenger.
cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd You have never given constructive criticism to Jackie. She does not know you, never heard of you.
And it is perfectly clear that you have no ideal what constructive criticism is.
Posting thousands of rants on public forums is not constructive criticism.
If you verbally abused one of your minor students all over the internet as you have Jackie, that student’s parents would have had all your job, licenses and credentials, house and car, and all your money before you had a chance to repeat yourself.
Even if hired as a teacher, when giving constructive criticism to a student it needs to be done in private.
The most important thing about constructive criticism is it needs to be private.
Constructive criticism should be positive in tone with a focus on a clear, achievable objective. It’s also important to choose a thoughtful time and place to deliver the critique, since any type of criticism can be hard to take in front of others.
Even if you have the best of intentions and only want to help someone improve, giving critical feedback in front of other people is never a good idea. No one wants to be told they’ve done something wrong in public. That leads to embarrassment and humiliation, which are the exact emotions you’re trying to avoid by being constructive. Plan ahead and find a private place to talk. Make sure you have plenty of time for a full conversation so it doesn’t get cut short.
JJ, obviously you never heard of masterclasses in which students not only perform in front of a teacher but get criticism publicly. Everyone benefits from opening up what would be private lessons.
What you are saying is that young performers should only get praise no matter if they are doing it with bad technique, possibly endangering their voices for the future and taking credit for originality when they are studiously copying others.
SORRY, the stage is not a school but a very public business making modest millions. If parents wanted to protect their children from musical criticism and this is what legitimately happens anytime a performer goes on stage, then they should keep their kids in the conservatory until they are ready to go out in the world. They say, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
I don’t need preaching from a person as vile-spirited and foul-mouthed as you are.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 27, 2014 at 6:23 am
JJ, obviously you never heard of masterclasses in which students not only perform in front of a teacher but get criticism publicly. Everyone benefits from opening up what would be private lessons.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=41547#respond
cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd/Kathleen Are you so delusional that you believe Jackie is a student in a masterclass of which you are the headmaster?
I doubt you are that far gone.
You only bring up masterclasses to try to divert attention from the severity of your verbal abuse of Jackie.
You are not in anyway employed nor connected to Jackie.
You are an unknown nobody who needs to belittle a minor child with your narcissistic self-serving rants in an attempt to feel better about yourself.
But if anyone needs to learn all there is to know about how to be a vile-spirited and foul-mouthed egotistical fool, I will direct them to your comments.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-41561
I notice that she did not answer you. Thank you for the most thorough destruction, in one post, of one of the most destructive, disagreeable people I have ever had the misfortune of encountering. I just hope she and I will never meet in person.
Oops there she is. :rolleyes: I should have known she wouldn’t be smart and let such a masterful smackdown pass her by. She has a nasty reputation to uphold. 🙂
Catty, “thorough destruction” and “masterful smackdown” – nice language, more descriptive of smart bombs that miss completely! Delusional too, as you all pendulate from heavenly ecstasy to mean vindictiveness.
They say drugs taken in adolescence leave unmetabolized substances in the liver. Is that why you people are seesawing emotionally and immune to reality checks? Please check out the post of Kathleen where she alludes to the psychological intractabiity and instabiity of you fans.
CJ,
It probably escapes your attention that your criticism does not come anywhere near “constructive”
You seem to be the only one NOT happy with confronting what stares at you. A 14 year old gifted artist who awes most that watch / listen to her. It really is your problem and not anyone else’s… which is probably why I suppose your band of merry friends seem to have diminished over the 4 years. One does get tired of hearing the same rhetoric again and again even if they are close friends.
As far as not listening, what exactly is it you think I’m not listening to.
It seems to be numbers are down across the board over four years, AJ. Naysayers and “yaysayers” alike. All of it is related.
Yes Addison,
You’re confusing fan numbers with CD sales. Two separate issues. If you do some research and are even mildly interested in the music business I’m sure you know what I know and what is widely discussed about the state of the music industry 🙂
The bonus tracks added to the WM edition of “Awakening” is simply incredible, adding to the magic of Jackie’s latest release. Such a pure voice so appreciated by so many. Too bad there are a few that hear only a ripped apart, sterile and exploded rendering of music, never being able to enjoy music as it is intended.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 27, 2014 at 6:23 am
JJ, obviously you never heard of masterclasses in which students not only perform in front of a teacher but get criticism publicly. Everyone benefits from opening up what would be private lessons.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=41547#respond
cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd/Kathleen Are you so delusional that you believe Jackie is a student in a masterclass of which you are the headmaster?
I doubt you are that far gone.
You only bring up masterclasses to try to divert attention from the severity of your verbal abuse of Jackie.
You are not in anyway employed nor connected to Jackie.
You are an unknown nobody who needs to belittle a minor child with your narcissistic self-serving rants in an attempt to feel better about yourself.
But if anyone needs to learn all there is to know about how to be a vile-spirited and foul-mouthed egotistical fool, I will direct them to your comments.
Knightlylouse, if anyone from Jackie’s team is disturbed about any criticism from anywhere, then it is their business to attend to it, NOT YOU! They are most probably aware that legitimate criticism is the price of putting a product before the public and maybe even helpful as it points in a direction that may be more favorable to them.
People will compare this product as they do cars, washing machines, coffee and shoes. You are not connected to Jackie except mentally so made yourself her self-appointed defender. This is usually the psychological basis of stalking. As you see, everytime you lash out at me or other critics, I do one better which makes you and those like you an embarrassment rather than helping them. You get deeper in the quicksand of your making. You can say “verbal abuse” or “ranting” but you can’t prove either. “Severity of verbal abuse” makes me think you yourself can’t take criticism at all when it is so mild and well-considered. I have NOT stalked, ranted, verbally abused Jackie or her team. This is entirely untrue and your repeatedly saying so is slanderous to me.
cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd Jackie’s team includes experts in vocal training, none of whom are you.
Your inane irrelevant delusional rants are not needed.
You are not connected to Jackie except mentally as an OTT obsessive anti-fan.
You have made yourself the self-appointed Headmaster of a masterclass on voice, who imagines everyone in the world is a member, waiting with bated breath, to hear what glorious information you will astound them with next. This is an unusual psychosis, even for a stalker, such as yourself. But then again you are an extreme case.
As you see, everytime you lash out at me or other fans, you only show yourself to be sicker, and sicker. You get deeper in the quicksand of your making.
You continue stalking Jackie sites, posting the same cookie cutter irrelevant rants for going on 4 years, verbally abusing Jackie, her parents, her professional staff, and her fans. The proof can be seen by all on the hundreds of youtube channels you have and are trolling, leaving your excessive and irrelevant comments.
KnightlyOnce,
Looks like you’re wrong. Jackie’s only vocal training expert is her former pharmaceutical-salesperson mother Lisa Evancho, and here’s what she recently said about her daughter:
You see? Anything that might become a chore is something that Jackie isn’t going to be up for. That pretty much rules out any of the kind of expert training that you claim she has already undertaken.
WALLY SAYS:
October 9, 2014 at 7:12 am
You see? Anything that might become a chore is something that Jackie isn’t going to be up for. That pretty much rules out any of the kind of expert training that you claim she has already undertaken.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=43106#respond
Wally, Wally, Wally, I see fine. It is folks like yourself and cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd who have blinders on.
Jackie starting, at age 8, has had several professional/expert voice teachers.
It is “the kind of expert training” that is the point. I guess you believe there is only one form of “expert training”.
Jackie is possible the greatest vocal prodigy of all time, but most certainly at least one of the greatest.
As such she has vocal abilities 99.5% of people in the world will never have, even if they take every form of “expert training” from the day they are born to the day they die.
Singers should not undergo serious vocal training until through puberty. Please do not take my word on that, ask any expert.
Parents decide what the needs of their children are, not anonymous posters on an internet blog.
No matter how full of themselves those posters may be.
Wally, you seem to be an intelligent person, so I will direct this post to you.
If Jackie had a few coaching sessions years ago, it certainly did not make a lasting impression. In other words, she did not seem back then to have any real system. The disclaimer with regard to training of young singers is not appearing in public until they are grounded. Sills, Andrews, Freni, etc., showed remarkable talent by the age of 12 but wisely went underground for a couple years until they were fully formed. To have instead the situation in which a child turned adolescent is constantly using her voice in live concerts without any professional mentoring is just inexplicable. (I don’t really care how the CD’s are put together.) You don’t have to read too deeply in between the lines :”her innate musicality she is able to build upon the things she’s heard from various people”
meaning copying note for note youtube videos “and build upon it to get better and better.” Well that’s really a moot point. After hearing the struggles on AGT and in various interviews, it depends on what one’s definition of “better” is.
However, a global one rests upon objective criteria, like it or not. It is really stupid to think that good training or note reading would spoil the talent anymore than reading and calculations will make a kid elitist.
Why is Alma Deutscher so good, in fact sings quite well? Because her parents got the best teachers for her. Conceivably with all the money rolling in thanks to Jackie’s singing, surely some of it can be diverted to improving her voice production and making her less uncomfortable when she is up on the stage.
And if a good teacher says that she should stop for a while, maybe such advice should be taken seriously.
Wally,
Nice of you to drop in from Amazon. I sense you are among those who took umbrage at the word “minion” and felt to outraged and on the offensive. Care to share your comments on Amazon with the rest of the folks here?
AJ,
Not at all good buddy. I already feel “enlightened” at just the thought of all that awaits us from Jackie, The Giver of Light, in her forthcoming (union member musicians need not apply) Awakening tour. They’ve announced a “new direction” for her upcoming concerts, so in addition to the standard, audience-provided flying Propecia bottles and exploding oxygen tanks, it looks like we’re all in for some new excitement. 🙂
I just got a notice in my inbox, so, AJ and Wally, just to inform you that besides using multiple usernames, bringing in conflicts from other forums (that obviously would remain at source if you could solve them there) is against the rules here.
As for vocal training, I am pleased as punch that her mother thinks that her daughter can dispense with it. She may have forgotten that the main draw of the past couple years was the cute factor, now long gone and something that an adolescent would cringe to be associated with. At this stage so many 14 and 15 year olds are grounded in vocal technique and don’t have to gulp for air on stage. It really sounds and looks like, what was that term, “organic”(?) and serves them all right.
Jackie has said that she can’t read music because she can’t “get the hang of it”. Apparently that’s too much of a chore also for this musical “genius”. Her Mom has said that she frowns on voice teachers because they try to make her sound like other singers, try to change her voice. The fact that her voice does need changing and that lyric singers like her are a dime-a -dozen is lost on this clueless stage mother.
I came across this article about child stardom,specifically Shirley Temple. While in doesn’t address prodigies in general, the Jackie Phenome crossed my mind when reading it.
http://bostonreview.net/books-ideas/judith-levine-john-kasson-shirley-temple
As Little Orphan Annie melting the heart of Big Daddy Warbucks, Shirley goes to Mr. Roosevelt himself to pleas that showbiz doesn’t exploit kids. Like how would she know? Or how would any kid b aware that “follow your dream” might make a nightmare of the future? So much of popular culture, specifically American, that would like to pride itself on clear headed rationalism, is predicated on sheer fantasy, and not of the religious type, but the tripe that has been emanating from Hollywood for practically a century. This is actually worse than the Middle Ages for at least the peasants accepted the fact they were uneducated.
We grew up with Shirley Temple. My mom in the 40’s was in a lookalike contest. She didn’t win but I had a ST doll that I loved (still wish I had it!) We watched her transition from cute kid to an awkward adolescent and made excuses for her acting, saying she was not so spontaneous anymore.
Let the woman rest in peace. Anything I read about her in the ensuing years made me very sorry for her. In fact it is amazing she didn’t wind up as a psychotic or druggie.
Here is an apt quote from the article: the “young star’s bankability depends on the feelings she arouses.” Wow, what a mouthful! Now translate that to the pedos of the early 21st century. They MAY see their own granddaughters or nieces in JE, but when they start talking about “she should be lucky to be in America because in a Third World country otherwise she would be pregnant already”. I kid you not and believe that such a quote is still in one of the back files here. But I don’t blame those leering men collecting every possible pose of hers in all of her different outifits, not only examples of her singing but watch eagerly snippets of her life, bus tours, etc. Meanwhile, her own peers, in contrast perhaps to Shirley Temple, could NOT care less.
Isn’t it a hoot to read “Jackie will always strive to be the light that shines into each ugly corner and chases all the shadows away.” – See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=43146#respond
If you keep repeating a fantasy, maybe you will start believing it.
Getting back to those nasty spirited fans, shouldn’t it bother a parent when they are attracting such flies?
As Mammy told Rhett when he didn’t want his daughter to ride side-saddle,
“It just ain’t fittin’, just ain’t fittin!”
Kathleen McCarthy says:
Never mind, no one cares what she said,
CJ,
Thanks for the warning on using multiple usernames but a complete waste of time in my opinion. I have one username on this forum.
I’m not sure where you got the idea that her mother thinks she can dispense with training. I have never heard her say that her daughter doesn’t need training. What she said though is that even with very little training, Jackie’s musicality helps her to learn and perform the way she does.
Who are these “so many 14 and 15 year olds” that are so grounded in vocal technique. Let me guess. They are at Juilliards, or in numerous conservatories around the world and will eventually burst upoon the music scene with the light of a thousand suns 🙂
The public at large if asked to make a choice would rather listen to, according to Wally, The Giver Of The Light 🙂 And so would I.
CJ,
I hate to say this but you seem to be obsessed with “pedos”. My sympathies is all I can say. Try not to dwell on it so much.
Looks like you misread Wally. She was satirizing “Giver of Light”. More and more the Evancholists are behaving like a cult. No wonder the kids in highschool pick on her.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 9, 2014 at 9:43 am
I just got a notice in my inbox,
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-43166
How hilarious.
The old dragged in “by notice in my box” defense of OTT obsessive troll everywhere.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 9, 2014 at 9:43 am
“…, AJ and Wally, just to inform you that besides using multiple usernames, bringing in conflicts from other forums (that obviously would remain at source if you could solve them there) is against the rules here.”
But after rebuking AJ and Wally, being the OTT obsessive troll you are, it was impossible for you to refrain from attacking base on their “against the rules” post.
Understandable. After all in your mind it is your duty to resolve all.
cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd queen troll says,
“As for vocal training, I am pleased as punch that her mother thinks that her daughter can dispense with it.”
JJ, I was wondering what rock you were hiding under. Please be informed you do not contribute anything of value here, except repeating OTT, OTT like a parrot. You are the troll, how droll!!!
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 9, 2014 at 5:37 pm
JJ, I was wondering what rock you were hiding under. Please be informed you do not contribute anything of value here, except repeating OTT, OTT like a parrot. You are the troll, how droll!!!
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-43201
cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd how can I not give credit were credit is so richly deserved. You have worked so very hard during the last four years, searching out and stalking Jackie sites all over the internet to posting tens of thousands of irrelevant rants on hundreds of youtube channels and other blogs like this one.
OTT obsessive anti-fan troll is a title you have earned, wear it with pride.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 9, 2014 at 2:38 pm
…”We grew up with Shirley Temple. My mom in the 40′s was in a lookalike contest. She didn’t win but I had a ST doll that I loved (still wish I had it!) We watched her transition from cute kid to an awkward adolescent and made excuses for her acting, saying she was not so spontaneous anymore.
Let the woman rest in peace. Anything I read about her in the ensuing years made me very sorry for her. In fact it is amazing she didn’t wind up as a psychotic or druggie.
Here is an apt quote from the article: the “young star’s bankability depends on the feelings she arouses.” Wow, what a mouthful!”
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-43175
SAVE YOUR SORROWS FOR PATHIC PEOPLE LIKE YOU
cabbagejuice why do you find it amazing she did not end up as a psychotic(the path you are on) nor “druggie”?
Do you think she should have became a psychotic or turned to drugs because of foolish critical comments made by the cabbagejuices back in her day.
Well I got news for you, back then critics, much better know than you, still were irrelevant just as you are irrelevant. Their rants had no affect on her are her fans, than your irrelevant rants have on Jackie or her fans.
And if they went too far, they were the ones to suffer for it.
Mr. Graham Greene found that out the hard way. In Oct 1939 he wrote in a British magazine that Temple was a “complete totsy” and accused her of being too nubile for a nine-year-old:
“Her admirers—middle-aged men and clergymen—respond to her dubious coquetry, to the sight of her well-shaped and desirable little body, packed with enormous vitality, only because the safety curtain of story and dialogue drops between their intelligence and their desire.”
Temple and Twentieth Century-Fox sued Mr. Greene for libel and won. The settlement remained in trust for Temple in an English bank until she turned twenty-one, then she donated it to a charity that used it to build a youth center in England.
Let’s skip all the awards and honors she earned during her early years.
Her successes did not stop after she stopped acting and performing. Many of her greatest successes came later during her adult life.
She was appointed Representative to the 24th United Nations General Assembly by President Richard M. Nixon (September – December 1969), and was appointed United States Ambassador to Ghana (December 6, 1974 – July 13, 1976) by President Gerald R. Ford. She was appointed first female Chief of Protocol of the United States (July 1, 1976 – January 21, 1977), and was in charge of arrangements for President Jimmy Carter’s inauguration and inaugural ball. She served as the United States Ambassador to Czechoslovakia (August 23, 1989 – July 12, 1992), having been appointed by President George H. W. Bush.[31] She was the first and only female US ambassador to Czechoslovakia. Temple was a personal witness to two crucial moments in the history of Czechoslovakia’s fight against Communism. Temple was in Prague in August 1968, as a representative of the International Federation of Multiple Sclerosis Societies and was actually going to meet up with Czechoslovakian party leader Alexander Dubček on the very day that Soviet-backed forces invaded the country. Dubček fell out of favor with the Soviets after a series of reforms known as the Prague Spring. Temple, who was stranded at a hotel as the tanks rolled in, sought refuge on the roof of the hotel. It was from here she saw an unarmed woman on the street gunned down by Soviet forces, a sight which stayed with her for the rest of her life. Later, after she became ambassador to Czechoslovakia, she was present during the Velvet Revolution, which brought about the end of Communism in Czechoslovakia. Temple played a critical role in hastening the end of the Communist regime by openly sympathizing with anti-Communist dissidents and later establishing formal diplomatic relations with the newly elected government led by Václav Havel. She took the unusual step of personally accompanying Havel on his first official visit to Washington, riding along on the same plane.
In 1972, Temple was diagnosed with breast cancer. The tumor was removed and a modified radical mastectomy performed. Following the operation, she announced it to the world via radio, television, and a February 1973 article for the magazine McCall’s. In doing so, she became one of the first prominent women to speak openly about breast cancer.
Temple served on numerous boards of directors of large enterprises and organizations including The Walt Disney Company, Del Monte, Bank of America, the Bank of California, BANCAL Tri-State, Fireman’s Fund Insurance, the United States Commission for UNESCO, the United Nations Association and the National Wildlife Federation.
Shirley Temple died on February 10, 2014, at the age of 85. She was at her home in Woodside, California, surrounded by family and caregivers. Her family stated only that she died of natural causes. The specific cause, according to her death certificate released on March 3, 2014, was chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. A lifelong smoker, she avoided revealing her habit in public to avoid setting a bad example for her fans. She is survived by her three children, as well as a granddaughter and two great-grandchildren.
Most of the above comments were taken directly from Wikipedia.
cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd is Wally/H-Camp your daughter?
JJ, this has got to be the goofiest, most distorted and psycho post by you so far. You missed the point entirely of “emotional labor” and how that alone is exploitation. From the article:
“But cheering up the country was no song and dance, not for Shirley and not for any of the children whose occupation was to perform carefree youth even as many kept their families afloat. Grounding his argument in sociologist Arlie Hochschild’s concept of “emotional labor,” Kasson describes the toils of young actors, both physical and psychic, preserving for adult viewers “a consecrated sense of childhood as a refuge from the anxieties of adulthood.”
It is bad enough when adults have to smile when they feel lousy, but that is a choice they make to work in service jobs that require them to tamp their own emotions. They play the game from 9 to 5 or whenever and then it is over.
Imagine, however, children having to pimp for adults, be cute, smile, sing, dance, when maybe they don’t feel like it? This can be classified as emotional abuse (1) plus others that ST endured: 2) being isolated from her peers, 3) her money whittled away by family and 4) the probability of physical abuse as well of which there are veiled references, the touching on film was bad enough.
Greene made the mistake of focusing his criticism on Temple’s person. He should have taken out those who were forcing her to perform like a trained monkey for the benefit of family, film producers and sacrificing her own privacy of feeling and emotion just to put a smile on the disposessed of the Depression. She didn’t cause it and probably in her own way being chosen as itheir little savior was the victim who suffered the most simply because they did not allow her to have a life.
Fast forward to stage mothers who promote from the same mysticism: “There will always be haters who try to suck the confidence and enjoyment out what accomplished people achieve, but that comes from the darkness and shadows in this world and jackie will always strive to be the light that shines into each ugly corner and chases all the shadows away.”
The girl is not supposed to sing for the act of singing but there is a purpose, to elicit a response and we all know what age group that is by now. Pimping by any other name is still pimping.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 10, 2014 at 6:54 am
Fast forward to stage mothers who promote from the same mysticism: “There will always be haters who try to suck the confidence and enjoyment out what accomplished people achieve, but that comes from the darkness and shadows in this world and jackie will always strive to be the light that shines into each ugly corner and chases all the shadows away.” The girl is not supposed to sing for the act of singing but there is a purpose, to elicit a response and we all know what age group that is by now. Pimping by any other name is still pimping.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=43122#respond
Here cabbagejuice quotes Lisa Evancho, Jackie’s mother.
Then claims the purpose for Jackie singing is “…to elicit a response and we all know what age group that is by now.” which is, “Pimping by any other name is still pimping.”
This follows cabbagejuice comments about Shirley Temple being forced to dance like a trained monkey, and probability of physical abuse and the touching on film.
cabbagejuice constant fixation on this theme has often been noted. Just in NL’s last article about Jackie cabbagejuice unjustly accused someone as being someone else impling that person was a pedophile.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 8, 2014 at 6:17 am
“The next question is WHY old men are crowding her sites, even to the extent of making one of your own, Jackie-Central. It’s not only the singing that moves you but the obsession to collect pictures of her in every pose and dress imaginable. I will say it right here: THIS IS HIGHLY IMPROPER BEHAVIOR for anyone past teenage years to obsess over someone else’s daughter. As many of you have children and grandchildren, how would you feel if creepy old men are gathering photos of your own kids and getting emotional highs from her singing?”
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/07/jackie-evancho-there-is-no-auto-tune-on-my-new-album/#sthash.CkI7TKJb.dpuf
Clearly cabbagejuice is the one with the sick obsession.
Well actually, cabbagejuice is clearly afflicted with a couple of sick obsessions.
As I said many have already noticed and commented on cabbagejuice on going obsessions, and the increasing rate at which these obsessions are reducing her ability to be rational.
Myself and others have suggested that someone who knows cabbagejuice sould, if they care about her at all, get her to seek professional help.
JJ, took a rest for a couple of days, gathering up strength for your next onslaught?
Pointing out unhealthy behavior is not an obsession but whistleblowing. You missed the point completely in the Boston article about Shirley Temple, that is, if you bothered to read it. Why should SHE or any other kid be chosen to put smiles on adults’ faces, at the expense of her own privacy and happiness?
Kid actors and actresses suffer from the process of putting on an act and getting euphoria as a reaction. So the kid ratchets up the act to get more accolades and soon can’t tell the difference between reality and fantasy.
A parent should be the one to ground the kid but instead spreads more propaganda that her singing chases away shadows, as though this is a psychological phenomenon rather than a musical one. Such an admittance is incredible. Singing then is not what she is supposed to be selling but that does explain away the reluctance to improve musical skills. The girl would have to depend on the music alone rather than all the other distractions as part of the package.
I wish them all luck. Maybe it will work, chances are it won’t. Why? Because those two vocal cords are holding up the whole structure. If they are not taken care of properly, well, that is a chance they seem to be willing to take.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 12, 2014 at 6:11 pm
… Same old irrelevant rants.
Getting to be a complete bore after four years.
That’s right, JJ, you won’t find sympathy or agreement here except from the flying monkeys from the ongoing JE forums. NORMAL adults listen to CD’s or go to concerts and leave it at that. They are not stuck in a perpetual loup ruminating the performer, her life, activities, schooling, future, etc., on a DAILY basis. What makes this worse is the girl has barely crossed adolescence and the fans avidly discussing her are middle to elderly men!
This is so transparently inappropriate that one wonders how the parents put up with it, that is, if they are not actively encouraging it by showing her off in busty gowns or conversely in short skirts. By the comments made, it doesn’t seem that singing is the main product. Goofballs like you are the result and proof of what flies are being attracted.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 13, 2014 at 5:16 am
NORMAL adults listen to CD’s or go to concerts and leave it at that. They are not stuck in a perpetual loup ruminating the performer, her life, activities, schooling, future, etc., on a DAILY basis.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=43122#respond
There is only one other person posting on this article who disagrees with me. But you agree with on several points. The two quotes of yours that I have copied and pasted here show two things we agree on.
I agree with your comment above that you are not normal since you are stuck in a perpetual loup ruminating the performer, her life, activities, schooling, future, etc., on a DAILY basis. Being such an OTT obsessive anti-fan troll you can not control yourself.
And I agree with your comment below. Jackie could become the greatest opera singer of our time if that is what she wanted.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
September 14, 2014 at 3:02 pm
The best direction I think for her to go to is what her fans hate the most, OPERA!!!
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-43474
When I am attacked, or less often, asked questions, I will respond. Most of my posts, about 95% have to do with answering back nutty fans.
The problem is as I see it, there is no real desire to become an opera singer, or even a true classic one for that matter. Otherwise, the necessary skills, note-reading, etc, would be avidly cultivated.
Opera singers come in all varieties. Those with large chest capacity usually do the dramatic roles. These I fear will be off limits. There are very few Prices, Normans, Sutherlands, Gencers, Nilssons, Pavarottis etc. who dominate the opera scene by virtue of their booming natural gifts. Others have to work harder at it. At the opposite end of the spectrum are the trilling birds: Lily Pons, Rita Streich, Dessay, Mesple, Robin – also not too numerous as true coloraturas.
This area is what I meant by her singing opera: forget about Carmen, Leonora, Tosca. Greatest singers in opera compass a wider range of posibilities. But there is certainly a niche for those women who can trot out Queen of the Night, going from house to house, as a practically guaranteed role.
CJ,
“The problem is as I see it, there is no real desire to become an opera singer, or even a true classic one for that matter. Otherwise, the necessary skills, note-reading, etc, would be avidly cultivated.”
Here in lies the confusion for many including myself. That problem you allude to was very specifically, regularly and consistently stressed upon by Jackie, her team, her fans etc that she has no interest in becoming an opera singer. So why would you follow her so closely and continuously attack her, her fans, her team, the media etc. Baffles me ! If she had no interest in pursuing opera why would an opera teacher continue to criticize her for four years in a row?
Go ahead and be baffled, AJ. It goes by the name of ‘reality check’ and seems like you fans are gradually being brought down to earth.
CJ,
You mean to tell me it took you four years of taking a beating from fans to bring everyone down to reality and no one has a clue what reality you’re talking about. What a wasted effort. But it still fails to answer the obvious question … Why???
You ARE clueless, Lucy-fer! If I like to write about singing or music, it is my business. The reality is that the Giver of Light or the Second Coming, Greatest Genius in all Music is not a reality. Get over it. Current sales have already blown away that homemade snake-oil booth.
CJ,
You can write your business anywhere and wherever you want and I can comment on it just as well.
That being said, I have no idea who Lucy-fer is. Spell it right and maybe I’ll know.
And by the way, you keep repeating yourself over and over and over again…..to no end !
The way you describe Jackie is only prevalent in your mind. Nobody thinks she’s infallible. You’ve conjured up your own demons and now you have to fight them. LOL !!!
AJ, what is your point? You are repeating yourself about repeating yourself about repeating yourself. Isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black? I provide interesting information but you and your pals are just here to attack, very unproductive!
Wally,
Wanted to bring you up to date since your last abrupt disappearance from this forum. CJ and I were both trying to guess who you were. CJ had some theories on who you might be. Maybe you can enlighten her.
I didn’t tell her that I know who you are now 🙂
Wally,
I can tell you felt the lash of her tongue too. LOL ! Yes excitement indeed but you won’t be attending any concerts so perhaps not as exciting for you as for others.
Not to worry. Amazon will provide you all the necessary tanks and bottles to make up for any excitement you might miss.
Don’t over indulge.
Kathleen,
Your perceptions are a bit distorted. Jackie’s mother has never said Jackie doesn’t need training nor has she said that she does, as far as I can remember. There is plenty of evidence that they have used different coaches intermittently throughout the four years.
Whether they are still looking for a coach for Jackie or not is anyone’s guess. The Evanchos are reticent about discussing Jackie’s vocal training and for obvious reasons.
I remember watching the movie Once Upon A Time In The West(don’t remember the year though lol). I believe the song is called ‘Jill’s Song’ in the movie credits. Edda Dell Orso sings the vocalise and does a great job. That was in the late 60s.
Then 40 years later I hear a precocious young Slovakian singer, Patricia Janeckova, sing the vocalise almost as well as Dell Orso when she was only 12 years old.
I took the liberty of posting that performance on Jackie’s fan site under ‘Songs For Jackie To Sing’ and lo and behold, here is the same song, with lyrics, on her new album!!
I like to think I had some small influence on this song choice. Maybe one day I’ll get to ask Jackie or Lisa about how they found the song.
BTW the song I’m talking about is ‘Your Love’.
When preparing our venue for a wedding or other event I always have Jackie playing over the sound system. A recent wedding party of about 15 setting up for the reception all stopped what they were doing to listen as soon as Jackie began to sing “Your Love”. It’s always a wonderful thing to watch, and it actually happens all the time, most often in the past to Jackie’s “Nessun Dorma”. “Beautiful”, “amazing”, and “Perfect” are the common response to hearing Jackie sing. There hasn’t been one negative reaction in the four years I have been playing Jackie’s music at our venue. The Classical voice may not be for everyone, but people know special when they hear it.
Critics x fans
I have seen a lot of endless and repetitive discussions between Jackie’s fans and critics, the last specially music teachers.
It seems to me that it is a hopeless discussion, because they have very different premiss and points of view. Critics focus only on Jackies’s technical imperfections, according to their standards. They seem to view art just under a classical concept, related only to skills. And judges her as a music student.
Fans, on the other side, as part of generally non expert public (with exceptions, of course), see Jackie as an young artist and appreciates her through a different concept of art, something like “The purpose of art is to create an emotional response in the person that is exposed to that art” (Paul O’Neill). Or “Art is the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination (typically in a visual form such as painting
or sculpture), producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power” (Oxford dictionary). Of course fans know that she is just beginning her career and has a lot to learn and improve. But her natural talent allows Jackie to already gift them with that “emotional response”.
One of the specific critics is about her imperfections in the pronunciation of words. I have a different point of view:
In 2010 AGT, after watching Jackie singing “Pie Jesu” (in latin), Sharon Osbourne said: “I didn’t understand one word you were singing, obviously. However, it was heavenly…”
In a Youtube page with a clip of Jackie singing “Imaginer” (in french), there was comments from french speaking people saying that her pronunciation was not very clear. One declared that, at the beginning, he couldn’t even realize she was singing in french. But, even so, they all loved her singing. As I do, undestanding or not the words.
When my mother-in-law, who is japaneese, heard Jackie singing “Kojo no Tsuki” (The Moon Over Ruined Castle) in japaneese, I asked her how did she evaluate Jackie singing this traditional song. She answered me: “better than most japaneese people”
How can Jackie touch fan’s hearts so deeply even when she sings in languages she (and/or us) cannot understand?
From the beginning, when asked why the preference for classical music, she always answered that in classical music she could feel the emotion, what didn’t happen with pop music, altough liking to hear it, being a declared fan of Lady Gaga. This should be the reason she also loves and sings movie songs, that plays the same role as operatic songs, helping to translate the emotions of the scenes and of the story. And she has also declared that, on stage, the music “possesses” her.
It seems to me that, in most cases, what Jackie really feels and sings is the melody itself, not the lyrycs, using the words just as musical sounds. It’s like she were allways vocalising, and not pronuncing words. This makes, for her and for us, less relevant to understand the words she is singing. The emotion is transmited directly through her voice, much more than by the meaning of the lyrics.
This is just my perception. I’m not a expert in music, just a music lover and a Jackie’s fan.
And sorry for my english. Obviously it’s not my native language…
Children are more open and spontaneous than adults. There are fewer barriers between them and the task at hand. They are also excellent imitators. This is neither bad nor good, but just a fact.
A few years ago, there was a famous Japanese prodigy who had a career in her young years. Much of what she did was closely dictated by a very clever teacher who herself studied in Juilliard. Now it seems she is studying seriously but not famous as she was before. She also “melted” the hearts of the listeners at the time. Please bear that in mind for the rest of the post.
Pie Jesu done by Jackie at the age of 10 was charming.but also remarkably similar to Aled Jones when he was a boy soprano. The Japanese and French songs could have only been learned by imitation. In fact, it has been admitted she did not really have consistent training. So many of her songs and that includes the Dormi Jesu and Think of Me on her latest album are taken directly note for note from Kathleen Battle and Emmy Rossum.
The difference between when she was copying Jones and the adult singers, is she sounded her age and very natural in the former. Copying adults is too problematic as there is the need to manufacture an adult sound in the lower range. When she gets out of that area, her high notes are freer but show evidence of a lack of training.
The magnetism and talent to engage an audience is there, no one denies that, but it is only commonsense to wait for the technique to settle. The talent will not go away but be enhanced. 14 1/2 is not a child anymore. There are plenty of young women who are being trained properly. It is weird to proceed on the same lines as when she was a child, to stand in front of a youtube video 50x until it can be repeated perfectly.
I was astounded after hearing the original of “Lovers” by Battle and “Dark Waltz” by Westenra. Then I realized what was really going on. Don’t worry, child instrumentalists are taught the same way in Russia and the Far East. Copying is not unusual and in fact kids are not only imitating adult singers on youtube but are getting prizes in national competitions. This is very questionable since artificially darkening the voice more than a natural child’s voice is a dangerous practice. It is not on another level, true either.
cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd everyone disregards your asinine rants of carbon copying of other artist renditions, because they are completely insane and without merit.
Yes it is possible to mimic others, but no matter how talented the mimic he can not improve on what he mimics.
Jackie’s interpretation of every song she covers is better and more beautiful than that of any other artist who as sung that song.
Your rants have been irrelevant since day one and only become more asinine and more irrelevant with each passing day.
You are quickly become the babbling buffoon I said you would.
JJ, I was not having this conversation with you. The mechanism of copying is well know in prodigies. In fact, this is not for you either so you can stop reading.
It was said of Yehudi Menuhim that he could play difficult pieces at the age of 10 but not a simple scale. This is significant in that if a student learns mainly by copying he or she will be thrown for a loop when asked to something on her own. This I imagine is the problem that the above-menetioned girl pianist is facing, the necessity of having to draw out of herself interpretations, rather than getting them tinned from a teacher or recording. This is a real artistic crisis that many do not overcome.
The problem is compounded when there is text, since there are listeners who don’t need to know the words to become entranced with a song and usually on first hearing that is not the focus anyway. But upon 2nd and 3rd hearings, etc., the text will need to emerge. It is sloppy of a singer just to sing la-la, and I can think of one classical soprano who tries to seduce by her lush sound. That becomes boring after a while. The text is the door through which an interpretation comes.
I heard Battle many times now singing the Dormi Jesu and it isn’t just the beautiful tone that impresses me.When she says “mater ploret”, (mother weeps), there is a hint of desperation that is very touching. See, there are levels of interpretation like a good painting.
Those nitwits who claimed that Callas was just emoting “O Mio Babbino” missed the point. She raised her eyebrows like a petulant young girl. It is this degree of artistry you miss when you just want to be emotionally titillated.
correction: Callas didn’t raise her eyebrows but contracted her whole brow to seem like a kid practically having a tantrum. This is so ingenious of her as so many other incredible examples of her attention to detail.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 14, 2014 at 1:08 pm
Those nitwits who claimed that Callas was just emoting “O Mio Babbino” missed the point. She raised her eyebrows like a petulant young girl. It is this degree of artistry you miss when you just want to be emotionally titillated.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=43683#respond
Raised her eyebrows did she, major degree of artistry you made up there cabbagejuice.
Any fool who watched that performance can see you are wrong…again.
Well OTT obsessives see what they want to see and hear what the want to hear.
Babbling buffoon.
Well, JJ, you signed your name, Babbling Babboon, how right on!
Babboons can’t appreciate the subtleties of a Callas. Anything that moves them on a visceral level is grand and great, anything from eating a whole pizza washed down by a few pints. It’s all the same gut reaction. If someone disagrees, then have a monkey tantrum.
You, AJ and the rest of them, do not have ANYTHING to contribute here except make spectacles of yourselves like babboons in the zoo. Answering you all is throwing you a few peanuts into the cage to keep you alive.
CJ,
Are you kidding or are you really that obtuse ?
You mean to tell me that for four years you keep repeating the same rant for every 4 posts you make and you don’t think that’s a bit odd?
My question is … what is YOUR point?
Your peabrain is not big enough to encompass my points.
ABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 15, 2014 at 9:14 am
Your peabrain is not big enough to encompass my points
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=43797#respond
A 9 year old could do better than that cabbagejuice. You are already became the babbling buffoon I said your obsession was dragging down to.
Your points are less encompassing than those on pins and needles.
How flattering it is to be copied by you all the time (since you have nothing constructive to say). Surely, Battle, Rossum, Jones, Church, Streisand, Westenra,
Enya, etc., should feel the same!
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 15, 2014 at 1:49 pm
How flattering it is to be copied by you all the time (since you have nothing constructive to say). Surely, Battle, Rossum, Jones, Church, Streisand, Westenra,
Enya, etc., should feel the same!
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=43837#respond
Just to name a few. All except the more egotistical members of the group would. They would hate Jackie’s rendition being better than theirs.
JJ, how stupid as usual! Rossum does the best Think of Me than any of the sopranos. Evancho is not even in the running. How could she aspire when the minimum technical requirements are not even met? Who cares what can be manipulated in a studio? In public, the girl gasps for air, sometimes in the middle of a phrase, cranes her neck, muddles the words, speeds up where she can’t sustain the breath and has a hooty, untrained tone in the upper register. It is too bad she tried to imitate Rossum literally in the last crowning high note without knowing what technique is needed to do it. Rossum’s is supported muscularly but Jackie’s is not. This is really risky if repeated in the up and coming concerts.
Really, JJ, the more you appear here with your miserable character, the more I will trot out facts. If you were prudent as a fan you should not attract negative criticism.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 16, 2014 at 7:51 am
JJ, how stupid as usual!
Really, JJ, the more you appear here with your miserable character, the more I will trot out facts.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#sthash.yY6ATWbo.dpuf
cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd
Facts???
What you call facts are your psychopathic delusions.
The same psychopathic delusions/”facts” of your OTT obsessive anti-fan rants you have repeated over and over and over thousands of times, repeated yet again here….
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 16, 2014 at 7:51 am
“…the girl gasps for air, sometimes in the middle of a phrase, cranes her neck, muddles the words, speeds up where she can’t sustain the breath and has a hooty, untrained tone in the upper register.”
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=43837#respond
OTT obsessives see and hear only what the wish to see and hear.
The true professional in the music industry, including those at Sony Masterworks vision and hearing do not suffer for what controls your senses.
CJ,
“It says serious people don’t give a damn and only nutcases like you keep coming back like flies or mosquitoes buzzing how great she is.”
Nutcases like me have a valid reason. We’re fans. What’s your reason. And please don’t call yourself an educator. I shudder to think of the parents who unwittingly have relnquished their child’s growth and development in the arts into your keeping.
Lets talk about your other obsession that all fans of Jackie Evancho are “pedos” and therefore their adoration for her is inappropriate. Yeah no more than your fascination with the very young Aled Jones whose now a grown adult with a baritone voice but yet we have you here mooning over his childhood and his voice …. again and again and again. Sound familiar?
You must truly be delusional if you’ve convinced yourself that you’re posting facts. You’re not most of the time. You just like to pretend they are facts. But lets assume what you say about Jackie are facts. So what? What’s your point. She’s really not as good as we think she is ? Big deal. We like her …. you don’t then go away or go somewhere else. I doubt anyone will care enough to give it a moment’s thought.
And please, do seek some professional help. You may be an expert as a teacher (I doubt it) but you’re no expert when it comes diagnosing yourself …. Asperger or whatever it is that you THINK you have. I have no clue. Its not my area of expertise.
I am surprised that your comment about CJ (whoever she/he is) that he/she should visit the local shrink mad it thru the censor. I made similar comments suggesting that she has either serious mental or personality problems and should see professional help and had those comments removed. . You are correct, an “adult” who has obsessed with a 11/12/13 year old girl has a problem. What she is doing is bullying and it is despicable especially when you consider it is an “adult” doing it to a child. I have posted comments to him/her suggesting he/she give his/her name, where he/she lives, when and when was his/ her professional training or education and then work experience. Silence. She sure has the brass to expect people to take her words of wisdom based on her assertions. My mother taught me to, when I came across a vocalist I hated to just simply turn him/her off. To sit there for hours experiencing pain is abnormal. Too bad we don’t know a cyber detective who could “OUT” CJ. Would not take long for people to contribute those background pieces of info and we would finally see who he/she really is and how well trained or not trained, etc.
Robbie, if this thread is too painful, don’t read it. You must have missed my last posts of November 24 that give some indication for a treasure hunt to search for my qualifications. However, the FACT remains that the girl in the middle of teendom does not sing nearly as well as her peers now. You don’t need a musical degree to hear that. Not to study singing apparently was a choice made by her team. If it were hers, then it would be allowing a child of 5 to drive a car just because she wanted to. This analogy would stand because such a loopy decision can wreck a voice as it can a vehicle in immature hands.
She thinks in her adolescent wisdom that one can practice once a week and be as good as those who have already mastered the basics and surpassed her. Gulping air is not even a technique an oboe player would use (that her mother allegedly studied and the one who gives her “advice”.) The whole schtick is so silly and stupid that only the idle oldsters are on board like yourself who have nothing better to do than follow eagerly the activities and images of young girls, who form by now the bulk of the ever shrinking bulk of concert goers.
I seldom get angry but when you suggested I had an abnormal interest in young girls I believe you have stepped over the line. You may hear more about this, but not directly from me, so hang on and see what develops.\\\
I looked for the references about your “qualifications” and find little other than your assertions that you have this experience, training, etc. Give you name, I have, and let people on the web do their research and either out you as a phony or report you are indeed trained (but of course that does not necessarily mean competent). So the ball is in your court.
Bob
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 16, 2014 at 10:11 am
“So go ahead and follow but please don’t think you are not revealing HOW inappropriate your behaviors are given the age and sex difference.”
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-43942
This is the same insane rant you chant at every Jackie fan. You have repeated it hundreds of times to as many different fans.
You are the one with the uncontrolled obsession for this child, and delusions of inappropriate behavior of all actual fans.
Proof of your obsessions are in your actions, and your failure to realise it.
Everyone who is familiar with your ranting and have read your inane and irrelevant remarks, on hundreds of youtube sites posting videos of Jackie, have told you that you are delusional and in serious need of professional help.
Your obsession over Jackie is tearing you down, even quicker than I thought it was.
Your obsession over Jackie is tearing you down, even quicker than I thought it was.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=43950#respond
EDIT:
I thought you would be no more than a babbling buffoon next year because of your failure to deal with your obsessions.
It is obvious I was wrong!
You have already been reduced to a babbling buffoon.
I really do not understand why there is a continued feeding of the cabbage troll. It serves no purpose.
Today is “Jackie Evancho Day” for the City of Pittsburg, as awarded to Jackie by Mayor Luke Ravenstahl on October 16, 2011. This, her music, and the effect she inspires in those who hear her sing are the kinds of things we should be discussing here, not wasting space feeding a lost, hateful troll.
I just finished listening to another graduate of the Got Talent series, Susan Boyle in “Hope” courtesy of Amazon free streaming until October 20th. I would definitely buy this CD even though it is not the sort of music that I stock up on. However when lifting of spirits are in order and it did have this effect on me, it might come in very handy.
If I didn’t know her age, I would have thought she were in her 20’s. Over-singing has not tarnished this bloom as what happens to the over enthusiastic and badly trained. She definitely has a directness and sincerity about her that is engaging. The first few songs were understated and I was wondering if this was going to be the pattern for the rest. No, not at all!
She has plenty of reserves that she was storing for the joyous culmination of “Happy Days”. This is indeed vocal wisdom as Ponselle said, one should not sing on one’s capital but on the interest.
Her diction is crystal clear and she can extend a note as long as she likes even with a flourish, plus little surprise phrasings.
Why this recording will be successful is that the songs were chosen around a theme but the treatment of each song is different and individual.
Having said all that I am not about to join a SB forum, or immerse myself in the details of her life and certainly not swoop down on her critics. I like this particular recording and that’s that!
You fans are the ones prolonging childhood if anything. You go on about “picking on a child”, making excuses for her ingenuous comments, technical deficiencies, and pranks. If she weren’t physically small, that aspect of cuteness would have been long out the window.
That was for Catmando, see above, October 18.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 18, 2014 at 6:39 am
You fans are the ones prolonging childhood if anything. You go on about “picking on a child”, making excuses for her ingenuous comments, technical deficiencies, and pranks. If she weren’t physically small, that aspect of cuteness would have been long out the window.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=44024#respond
gabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd More smoke and mirrors. No one is talking about cuteness or physically size. Just facts. During the last 4 years you have been demeaning Jackie and stalking her on hundreds of internet sites, she has been, and still is by the law in all 50 states of the United States, a minor child. Your opinion on her that point is as irrelevant as all your other opinions.
You saying the world is flat, does not make it true.
JJ, do you just come here to discharge the rest of the venom left over from other forums? My post was an answer to Catmando’s decisive statement:: “Jackie is not a child any more. Get that through your Alzheimer’s-addled brain.”- See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=44033#respond
You people in la-la land say whatever comes from your innards without any consistency. However, just because YOU say that my professional assessments are rants, will not make them rants. Just because YOU say I am stalking, will not make it true either. Just because you say that I am any of the numerous ugly names you have called me will not make them so, and as they are false, are slanderous.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 18, 2014 at 2:31 pm
JJ, do you just come here to discharge the rest of the venom left over from other forums? My post was an answer to Catmando’s decisive statement:: “Jackie is not a child any more. Get that through your Alzheimer’s-addled brain.”- See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=44033#respond
You people in la-la land say whatever comes from your innards without any consistency. However, just because YOU say that my professional assessments are rants, will not make them rants. Just because YOU say I am stalking, will not make it true either. Just because you say that I am any of the numerous ugly names you have called me will not make them so, and as they are false, are slanderous.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=44035#respond
I come here to read an article about Jackie Evancho, a Classical Crossover artist that I happen to be a fan of.
But of course when trying to read about her, but what do I see?
I see the same thing I see EVERY TIME I go to an internet site and youtube channel that features Jackie Evancho.
That is hundreds of sites and youtube channels with the same OTT obsessive rants by you, cabbagejuice/zamyrabyrd.
To say your perverse obsession with this child is grossly inappropriate is a huge understatement, for anyone, and the fact that you claim to be a professional who teaches young student is more than disturbing. My prays are with those children.
New laws have been added to the books to protect people from this type of stalking made possible by the internet.
Psychologist are observing the strange behavior of obsessives on the internet, you would be an excellent case study for them.
You need to makeup your mind cabbagejuice.
Do I parrot the same comments over and over, or are my comments “without any consistency”?
You can not have it both ways.
You keep proving you are no more than a babbling buffoon now.
I do not call your “professional assessments” rants, I only point out that they are irrelevant.
It is your rants I call rants.
The laws on the books say you are stalking. All I do is point that fact out to you.
What ugly name have I called you. Tell me the ugly names I have called you and I will see if you have a point or not.
I have made no comment that can be shown to be “slanderous”. And the correct term is libelous, since our comments are posted on an internet blog.
You are the one making “slanderous” comments.
For once you are right, JJ, your comments are libelious:
‘What ugly name have I called you. Tell me the ugly names I have called you and I will see if you have a point or not.
I have made no comment that can be shown to be “slanderous”. And the correct term is libelous, since our comments are posted on an internet blog.”
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#sthash.yY6ATWbo.tYOIkPpz.dpuf
“You have already been reduced to a babbling buffoon.”
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#sthash.yY6ATWbo.tYOIkPpz.dpuf
“Facts??? What you call facts are your psychopathic delusions. The same psychopathic delusions/”facts” of your OTT obsessive anti-fan rants you have repeated over and over and over thousands of times, repeated yet again here…” See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=44102#respond
“Are you employed by the Evanchos or her management team? Has a government agency hired you to investigate the Evanchos or to intercede on behalf of the minor child Jackie Evancho? If you answered no to all these questions, you are correct.” – See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#sthash.yY6ATWbo.tYOIkPpz.dpuf
Yes, indeed you are not hired, not even wanted, to patrol the Jackie sites. People like you are only an embarrassment to them
OK, everyone: cut the rhetoric and the mutual abuse. Stick to the issue. Final warning.
NORMAN LEBRECHT SAYS:
October 19, 2014 at 11:52 am
OK, everyone: cut the rhetoric and the mutual abuse. Stick to the issue. Final warning.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=44115#respond
That is going to make it almost impossible for cabbagejuice, you forbidding the only two kinds of comments she has ever made, rhetoric, and abusive.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 19, 2014 at 11:49 am
For once you are right, JJ, your comments are libelious:
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/#comment-44135
And for once you are partly right cabbagejuice. You were correct to say I am right.
Thanks for repeating facts I and many others have informed you of. Take them to heart, and see if you can correct your faults.
Wow, there’s no keeping you down, JJ, even after a rebuke. I don’t heed anyone’s unsolicited advice. My faults are none of your business. You were only right on one point, that of YOUR comments being libelious. That is ALL.
Looks like cabbage and her snotty little friends AJ and Knightlyonce decided this thread was about them and their sniping dance. Thanks, Cabbage and friends for ruining yet another Jackie thread. You must be very proud.
Stephen,
I have no beef with you. No need to get your knickers in a knot. If you don’t like it you have three choices. You can ignore it just like I ignore that which does not interest me. You can complain to the moderator which I never do. Or you can choose to go elsewhere.
Take your pick. It really makes no difference to me though I suppose what I post seems to matter much to you. I would ask you what you perceive as being snotty about me but then I would have to care. I haven’t reached that stage yet.
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 19, 2014 at 2:49 pm
Wow, there’s no keeping you down, JJ, even after a rebuke. I don’t heed anyone’s unsolicited advice. My faults are none of your business. You were only right on one point, that of YOUR comments being libelious. That is ALL.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=44147#respond
cabbagejuice, I got news for you Norman’s rebuke was directed at you. Maybe you failed to notice it was posted after your comments.
Yes, I know am right, your comments are libelous.
Take a week or two off to read some of your comments during the last 4 years posted on hundreds of youtube channels. If would do that with a clear head, you would see I am telling you the truth.
I don’t care if she’s doing it right or wrong. I enjoy her singing more than any I’ve ever heard.
I’m posting this comment again, because the first time it was completely hidden by the “troll battle”.
CRITICS X FANS
I have seen a lot of endless and repetitive discussions between Jackie’s fans and critics, the last specially music teachers.
It seems to me that it is a hopeless discussion, because they have very different premiss and points of view. Critics focus only on Jackies’s technical imperfections, according to their standards. They seem to view art just under a classical concept, related only to skills. And judges her as one of their music students.
Fans, on the other side, as part of generally non expert public (with exceptions, of course), see Jackie as an young artist and appreciates her through a different concept of art, something like “The purpose of art is to create an emotional response in the person that is exposed to that art” (Paul O’Neill). Or “Art is the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination (typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture), producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power” (Oxford dictionary). Of course fans know that she is just beginning her career and has a lot to learn and improve. But her natural talent allows jackie to already gift them with that “emotional response”.
One of the specific critics is about her imperfections in the pronunciation of words. I have a alternative point of view:
In 2010 AGT, after watching Jackie singing “Pie Jesu” (in latin), Sharon Osbourne said: “I didn’t understand one word you were singing, obviously. However, it was heavenly…”
In a Youtube page with a clip of Jackie singing “Imaginer” (in french), there was comments from french speaking people saying that her pronunciation was not very clear. One declared that, at the beginning, he couldn’t even realize she was singing in french. But, even so, they all loved her singing. As I do, undestanding or not the words.
When my mother-in-law, who is japaneese, heard Jackie singing “Kojo no Tsuki” (The Moon Over Ruined Castle) in japaneese, I asked her how did she evaluate Jackie singing this traditional song. She answered me: “better than most japaneese people”
How can Jackie touch our hearts so deeply even when she sings in languages she (and/or us) cannot understand?
From the beginning, when asked why the preference for classical music, she always answered that in classical music she could feel the emotion, what didn’t happen with pop music, altough liking to hear it, being a declared fan of Lady Gaga. This should be the reason she also loves and sings movie songs, that plays the same role as operatic songs, helping to translate the emotions of the scenes and of the story. And she has also declared that, on stage, the music “possesses” her.
It seems to me that, in most cases, what Jackie really feels and sings is the melody itself, not the lyrycs, using the words just as musical sounds. It’s like she were allways vocalising, and not pronuncing words. This makes, for her and for us, less relevant to understand the words she is singing. The emotion is transmited directly through her voice, much more than by the meaning of the words.
This is just my perception. I’m not a expert in music, just a music lover and a Jackie’s fan.
And sorry for my english. Obviously it’s not my native language…
Stop your lies right now! “The saga of CJ and Aled Jones is well known.”
You think you can get away with saying anything. You and your pals cross the line too often. Just watch it! Don’t think I am going to just sit back and tolerate it.
Church sang standing still without being stuck to a microphone with a full sound and excellent breath control. Her diction was spot on for any language she sang in, showing the proper respect to the text that a singer should have.
Maybe she turned to pop music because the rep she was doing was too high for her and could have been uncomfortable. She sounds to me like a possible high mezzo. Too bad, if that was the reason.
CJ,
Lies….? What Lies! I interpret things the same way you interpret inappropriate behavior and label fans as “Pedos”. If you don’t like the taste of your own medicine I would suggest that you don’t prescribe it to others. I’m sure you can see my reasoning and logic. Its just like yours. I think we are very much alike !
As far as Charlotte, she had a phenomenal voice for her age until Jackie came along. Listen to Charlotte singing Pie Jesu at age 12 during an interview and listen to Jackie singing Pie Jesu on AGT at a mere 10 years old. There isn’t even a comparison. Jackie is so advanced at that age compared to Charlotte its not even funny. And Charlotte was good….which tells you how good Jackie was !
You are trying to equate a couple of compliments I have made about other singers with the constant harping, running into the thousands of posts on the same subject which is made even more ridiculous an elderly man singing the praises of what an adolescent did a couple years ago. So it is a lie and not a matter of perception.
What are you trying to prove, what points are you trying to rack up in what imaginary contest if you keep saying that Jackie sang better at the age of 11? Well she did in certain respects better than she does now because it was natural and believe me not so different from a lot of talented kids including Amira at the age of 9.
The difference is those parents or teachers are not shoving their kids to the public stage and making money from them before they are emotionally and technically ready. You think that praise and gush is healthy but if it whittles away the desire to do better, then damage is already done.
CJ,
Absolutely not. Its much more than just a few compliments and in my opinion totally unwarranted, exaggerated and even more inappropriate than and older man and his meanderings about a young artist. The opposite sex is certainly not exempt from what you accuse the other about. Actually when you throw in the teacher aspect into it its even more reprehensible. Of course what stares one in the face is not always the truth but merely a figment of ones imagination. Would you then agree that that being the case we could both be victims of each other’s imagination.
CJ, one of the problems you face is that for you its always about a contest or competition. Once again a delustional tic …
I have little or no interest in other child singers, not even Aled Jones or Amira. They sang / sing like little kids. Thats a fact. Jackie did not and does not sing like a kid. Whats so difficult to understand about that. Its irrelevant whether Aled Jones (the cherished) sounded like the epitomy of technical perfection. He might as well have been braying like a donkey for all that it matters to me. Not saying that he does but even if he didn’t he still sounds like a little kid at 11, 12 years old.
You think harsh criticism is healthy then I pray parents are warned and get a chance to read some of your posts before you deprive them of their hard earned money by deluding them into thinking that your criticism is mean’t to build character when all it does is kill the spirit.
I don’t see eye to eye on your so called methods of educating the young (God forbid and heaven help those unfortunate enough to be deceived) with you and you can disagree with me but don’t tell me what I can and cannot believe. Fix your own issues first and then come back to lecture me.
This is a lie, pure and simple. You are trying to make me out like what you people are. There is NO evidence except your malicious gossip and now are adding character defamation to it. Well, guess what, women usually prefer older men!
Furthermore, I don’t drool or moon over ANY singer. There is NO evidence of that either. If Jackie didn’t sound her age back then, it places her in the category of those kids on youtube and various talent shows who are imitating adults. Sorry, but that sound you like is manufactured! At times she did sing naturally but that was long ago. Now that you have Church’s links please study them to hear what a person that age can and should sound like.
H dare you attack cabbagejuice the way you have. I’ve been following the posts on this blog for years, and it is quite obvious that cabbagejuice is a experienced vocal professional and voice teacher. To accuse her of such deplorable things just because she doesn’t agree with your assessment of Jackie’s vocal abilities (and that is at the crux of the matter) is horrid. You should be ashamed of yourself. As for me, as a trained singer, I’ll stick with what cabbagejuice says. I agree with everything she has ever posted about Jackie.
Janine,
Which one of CJ’s alter egos are you and if your message was addressed to me my response is that yes I dare to say what I say. Would you like me to repeat it for you ? AGAIN?
CABBAGEJUICE SAYS:
October 21, 2014 at 7:44 am
You are trying to equate a couple of compliments I have made about other singers with the constant harping, running into the thousands of posts on the same subject which is made even more ridiculous an elderly man singing the praises of what an adolescent did a couple years ago. So it is a lie and not a matter of perception.
What are you trying to prove, what points are you trying to rack up in what imaginary contest if you keep saying that Jackie sang better at the age of 11? Well she did in certain respects better than she does now because it was natural and believe me not so different from a lot of talented kids including Amira at the age of 9.
The difference is those parents or teachers are not shoving their kids to the public stage and making money from them before they are emotionally and technically ready. You think that praise and gush is healthy but if it whittles away the desire to do better, then damage is already done.
– See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=44440#respond
cabbagejuice I know your post I copied and pasted above is directed at someone else, it does not matter.
You have repeated those “couple of compliments” hundreds of times. Even more ridiculous than an elderly woman(you cabbagejuice) singing the praises of what an adolescent boy(Aled Jones), did a few years ago, is an elderly woman(you cabbagejuice) pursuing a young girl(Jackie) to hundreds of the internet sites for 4 years just to post thousands of irrelevant comments to disrupt her fans enjoyment of those sites. So it is not a lie, nor a matter of perception, it is a simple truth.
You, cabbagejuice are the one bringing these other singers into the discussion. What are you trying to prove, what points are you trying to rack up in what imaginary contest by saying that they sang better than Jackie?
Your claim that, “The difference is those parents or teachers are not shoving their kids to the public stage and making money from them before they are emotionally and technically ready.” is either a completely witless comment, or an outright lie, by you. How do you think you, and the rest of the world, became aware of these other kids.
Please try to stop babbling like a buffoon. You really are placing yourself in a very bad light because of this obsession over a young girl.
That’s it. End of thread.
About time!
Testing 1 2 3
You seem to think that the fact that Jackie ‘connects” with so many people and emotionally moves them negates the need for decent vocal technique. I’m sorry, but the bad technique that Jackie employs is sooner or later going to damage her voice. I can’t hear any appreciable improvement in her technique since her original appearance on Ameica’s Got Talent. In fact, I can already hear indications of vocal damage in her most recent recordings and personal appearances.
By the way, Mr. Lebrecht, does the disclaimer that autotune wasn’t used in Jackie’s latest CD indicate that she has used autotune in the past?
Hi there, I don’t know why my post appeared twice but I may be able to shed light on why these fans are so adamant. They were all on a big high a couple years ago thinking that the whole opera world as they call it, was upturned by a raw talent who can move people better than shrieking classical singers. They were finally able to cock a snook at the despised elite. This is at the basis of their goofiness, they can’t believe that their fantasy has evaporated and still hold onto it. The rumors going around back then, that the girl was even chanelling angels or spirits, which to my knowledge wasn’t put down by her immediate family. The more prestidigitation the better. A few months ago one of them is alleged to have claimed that Jackie is giver of light, in so many words. She was supposed to have a preternatural range, the little girl with the big voice – that was never big, if you compare her to some of the recent warblers her age.
Those are really tough claims to live up to. As for range, where was the high C# above the staff in the Rachmaninoff Vocalise, that should have been a cinch? The fact is, if she had proper training, she would have been able to do that and more. This is what these idiots don’t understand and this is highly unfair to her, making her conform to their fantasies, needs and wants. Added to that, this group should not be, male or female, spending the livelong day on the boards discussing a 14 1/2 year old. So they are goofy to begin with.
My original interest was musical, to see if this were really true, an exception to the rules, or the exception that proves them. After all, in science when a contradiction is found in a theory there has to be a reassessment to accomodate the new information. Until now, I don’t see any rules of physiology being suspended. My interest has shifted to psychological, trying to figure these people out and observing their behavior.
CJ,
The problem is you just don’t get it. The fans still think she is the raw talent that turned the opera world upside down. 🙂 You or anyone else is not going to change that.
Your goofiness is that you love to take comments out of context and use them as facts.
I say you stick with your fantasy of Aled Jones when he sang like a girl and we’ll stick with Jackie Evancho who sounds like a woman! Deal ?
This really takes the cake for delusional:
“The problem is you just don’t get it. The fans still think she is the raw talent that turned the opera world upside down. You or anyone else is not going to change that.” – See more at: https://slippedisc.com/2014/09/the-new-jackie-evancho-how-far-has-she-come/?replytocom=48528#respond
How does singing “Ombra mai phooey” hundreds of times with bad diction while gulping for air turn the opera world upsidedown? Even Charlotte Church who sold many more recordings and sang far better than Jackie at 14 didn’t make a dent in what you call the “opera world”. If kids sound like adults, they are merely imitating of which plenty abound on youtube these days. Conceivably this is the real reason voice lessons were rejected since any serious voice teacher would have insisted that the fake adult timbre would have to go. Now the point is moot since 15 is an age of vocal transition, even more important to have good guidance.
THIS THREAD IS CLOSED. NO FURTHER COMMENTS ARE WELCOMED.
Gosh, I thought this thread was dead, just got a notice in my inbox. Robbie, please refer to Janine Brown’s post of two days ago.
A person can say the world is round without being a geographer, astronomer, or astronaut. No need for peer reviewed studies either.
If you dispute any of the facts about singing, you are entitled to it. No one said you need a degree in musicology.
However those in the profession would be more likely to know how things go. And really, performing by now demanding repertoire in concerts without formal training is just foolhardy. Choices were made to stick to a certain formula that unfortunately is appealing mainly to an ever diminishing age group, small to begin with.
The recent cancelled two concerts are plenty evidence of let’s say, errors in judgement? If there is illness that affects the vocal cords, a good teacher would also stand with a flaming sword to the entrance to the green room – no go!
There are definitely risks for that kind of straining, but hey, there are 6 mouths to feed in that household!
As for my professional qualifications and name, they are buried in past posts. Happy hunting!
CJ,
“How does singing “Ombra mai phooey” hundreds of times with bad diction while gulping for air turn the opera world upsidedown? ”
Never heard of that song before. You must be having visions of Aled singing that. And from what I heard he didn’t turn anything upside down except perhaps a few heads bloviating over his angelic voice … sounds familiar doesn’t it?
“Even Charlotte Church who sold many more recordings and sang far better than Jackie at 14 didn’t make a dent in what you call the “opera world”. ”
At 14, 15 or 16, Charlotte still couldn’t hold a candle to Jackie at 10, 11, 12. and still can’t with Jackie at 14. Mind you I am a big Charlotte Church fan but one cannot deny the truth. Good as her voice was Jackie’s is even better.
The rest of your comment was not worthy of comment since its the same old stuff repeated again and again and my response to that is …. take a wild guess!
PBS Stations around the country have begun to air “Jackie Evancho: Awakening” for their pledge drives, and will be adding the special to their video lists starting later this week. Pledge gifts of the DVD and concert tickets in selected cities are available. for those of you who have not as yet experienced Jackie live, this is another wonderful example of what to expect.
Norman, you should check these out for a new blog.
Here are the two newest Jackie Evancho duets.
One with Cheyenne Jackson, broadway star, ect.
The other with internet star, Peter Hollens.
Both are creating a lot of interest, on the internet and in the music industry.
Peter and Jackie’s Hallelujah has had over a million hits on youtube in 8 days, was the ninth highest shared video this week.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwbUT-hyZz8&feature=em-uploademail
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VdwDiedS0Y
I think the crux of the matter is the following, which is a quote from an article in Reuters by David Adams, January 10, 2014 “Child singing star Jackie Evancho balances school, career
**************************************************************************************************
She is often asked how she got such a voice.
“We like to say it was a gift from God,” Jackie said, admitting she has tried three times to learn to read music, but just can’t get the hang of it.
She has tried voice coaches but none has worked out.
“They wanted to try and change Jackie’s voice,” her mother said. “But we don’t want her to sound like every other soprano.”
***************************************************************************************************
There it is! The Evanchos not only admit that Jackie has no training, they DON’T WANT HER TO HAVE TRAINING. Mommy says that they don’t want Jackie to sound like every other soprano. For your information, Mrs. Evancho, good vocal training doesn’t make a singer sound like a clone of every other singer of the same vocal classification. Each voice is unique. Good training provides the singer with a good grounding in vocal technique, the foundation upon which all voices are built, not just the voices of those opera singers that you despise so much. Good training would eliminate Jackie’s unevenness of tone, screechy high notes, lack of support for the voice, poor breathing technique, tension in her body, jaw, and neck, and that famous wobbling chin. Of course a good voice teacher would make Jackie go back to square one and learn to sing all over again, this time with good technique. That would also mean abandoning that artificial, more mature sound, that her fans all love, and learning to sing with her natural voice. Then the money train might come to a halt. I guess that the Evanchos are more interested in the money and the glamor of a career than in their daughter’s vocal health.
Cabbagejuice, you keep right on commenting. Yours are the only comments that make good sense as far as good singing is concerned. You obviously know your stuff. The rest of these people here who keep beating up on you don’t know the first thing about singing.
Hmmmm. A lot of over praise and an equal amount of less than.
From my perspective, I see a young person, with what she has been told is a gift; a gift that she freely shares.
She appears to be someone that wants to be something that is different than what others believe she should or should not be. I choose to believe that she does not pretend; she does not pretend to be operatic nor pop but rather something that suits what she feels is her best vocal style. In so holding this belief she delivers all that she can be.
Jackie is that unique tree in a forest that ensures that not all trees in the forest are the same. If all trees in the forest were the same then it would be a funny looking forest.
She is fifteen with many years to decide which path she might choose; so please, all of us, let her choose her own path.
This blog, I believe, is intended to be about honesty, honest in praise and honest in critical review. Critical review of a child or young teen, might by many be considered abuse. We should be careful that our critical review is not seen as something worse; child abuse.
Hey Norman, Jackie blew Andrea away in Bangkok last night. You should start a thread on that concert. I’m sure CJ would LOVE to comment on it! 😀
The Evancho-Bocelli duet has over half a million views and a thumbs up ratio better than 10 to 1. Many adoring comments.
Looking forward to the Malaysian concert in a few weeks!
I’m watching the Awakening concert on PBS and I cannot understand a word that she is singing without having closed caption on. Her diction is woeful. Plus,some of the lyrics are too mature for a 15 year old.
Yes her diction has been an issue with me as well. She needs lessons in that area.
Always room for improvement, but I think her last duet with Bocelli showed considerable improvement in breathing. I hope that trend continues in the upcoming duets with Placido Domingo.
Many of Jackie’s fans are emotionally attached to her, and, the sound of her voice.
Likewise, many of her critics are strongly identified with their own musical expertise and opinions. So, when emotional fans and critics meet, conflict is inevitable.
Let us say that although Jackie Evancho may have an exceptionally beautiful voice, its full potential can only be realized by traditional vocal training. However, on a practical level, Miss Evancho is making a decent living with her present talent
and it appears doubtful, at this point in time, that she believes it is important to pursue vocal training to the extent mentioned by experts and critics.
We all see and hear Jackie in a variety of ways. May her choices in life always be respected, regardless of what opinions we may hold dear.
In case you haven’t noticed, this thread is a year and half old, but then, so is this argument and the bulk of her fans: “old”!
Yes, I see. lol The traditions of vocal training are also very ‘old’ but nevertheless valuable…
…and your own opinion is of value to me. 🙂
In other Jackie news…she bought a new car yesterday, even though she can’t drive it until her birthday which is April 9. She bought a loaded black 2016 Mazda CX3. We can assume she will pay her sister Juliet to drive her around for a month lol.
What archival hole did you people crawl out of? We all know who is paying the bills for that family, the house, food, clothes on their backs and presumably medical interventions.
Zamyrabies what’s your problem??? Do you begrudge her ONE little indulgence in her short life?? She’s a teenager and teenagers want to own cars and drive cars.
Best to leave the cabbage to contemplate her vile obsessions alone. Jackie is moving up and beyond with her new production company, latest videos, and soon to be released 6th album. So much wonderful has Jackie accomplished in just 5 years, and the future looks even better. Vile and crazy witches screaming childish epithets from deep within a lonely well for attention is a sad and embarrassing, indulgent past best left behind. I hope Norman has allowed himself to move his interest forward with Jackie’s career as have the rest of us.
Rip van Winkle caught in a time warp, life and music have moved on.
Your expected supernova turned out to be a wet firecracker.
“Vile obsessions” you could not have hit the target better than that. She needs mental health intervention and I hope she recognizes that and gets help.
While talking to a music teacher in our business complex this afternoon I had him watch Jackie sing “Writing’s on the Wall” on my iPad. I was curious to gauge the reaction of a real music teacher since he had not heard her since I gave him a “Dream with me” CD when it came out. He spent the next half-hour gushing over how incredible she has become and how perfect her voice is, also saying Sam Smith’s attempt to sing the song at the Oscars was a shocking letdown. When I left his studio he was at his computer listening to Jackie’s version of “Safe & Sound”.
La-di-dah! Almost anything can be concocted in a studio.
LIVE performances are the only indication of vocal ability.
Sorry, but most of the undersold and sparsely attended full length concerts over the past couple years or so were substandard.
Yes, live performances are the best if not the only indication of vocal ability.
Studio recordings are always superior to live performances in sound quality and delivery by the singer, for obvious reasons.
However, it may be said that people go to see and hear Jackie live, because they are fans. They love her no matter what. Nothing anyone says here can change that.
If critics can learn to accept that fact, the arguments can end. And, if fans are willing to respect what critics and experts say, all will go well.
Only those who respect others and their opinions are victorious here. 🙂
Lucy-fer, this “love” you are talking about is pathological, to the extent that elderly men having been getting together to discuss the object of their affections for the past 5 or 6 years, EVERY DAY.
You people are reduced to scouring for tidbits of her personal life, like expensive purchases, sharing nail polish with her brother, etc., because the musical aspect is so inconsequential.
Other 16 year olds are doing plenty in actual music, much more than her, with demonstrable skill and knowledge. They don’t have to glom onto questionable social issues to get attention from the public.
Your opinion is duly noted and acknowledged. Apparently, some critics are reading about her every day also. lol
Re: ‘love’: Pathological or not, the emotional attachment is there and it is doubtful that it will change for the fans–as well as some critics– any time soon.
Carry on! 🙂
Mr. Lebrecht reports today that the Met was half-empty on opening night.
Apparently, a lot of people missed a great evening of music! 🙂
It may be said that poor attendance at the Met is due to poor singing technique. lol
But I doubt that is true. 🙂
Talking to yourself? The Met capacity is 3,800 seats and they play every day, not some little place in the boondocks with the balconies already closed off. Their live movie streaming have been an enormous success. Plus there is fierce competition from other musical events in the busy Big Apple. Some operas do not have the drawing power they used to, as the “Love Potion”.
Meanwhile, other houses (someone pointed out) such as Covent Garden (if not ENO), Munich, Wien, are doing just fine, playing to almost 100 capacity.
Your girl (sorry) would not even make it in the auditions for the Met Choir.
For fans and critics, a relatively flawless and live performance of “Memories”–
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5hDlsssvPc&index=3&list=PLVGA9F_Y4httALI4zP4hJaQjN5-9qlcdL
It would have been better for you and your pals to quit a year ago. There are too many people who know singing around here to let “flawless” pass. The main problem evident in live performances is the marked difference between the middle and upper range, as though there are two voices.
For recordings that stay more or less within a middle octave, the seams don’t necessarily show. Joining the registers is something that you are not expected to know but if you have good ears, it is possible to recognize the lack when pointed out. This is just basic, one of the main objectives of voice training, to have a continuous line. Even the vibration profiles of the higher notes are different, having what is usually called a hooty quality. This is really a pity because these notes should have been round and full by now.
If I were you for your and her sake, to stop right now and not invite more criticism!
Thanks, CabbageJuice. Your comments are always welcome to some of us. However, Jackie’s admirers still like what they hear, apparently. Let it be said that expert opinions are valuable but kindness is even more so. 🙂
The dead horse appears to be a rotting corpse, so we can stop beating it now. lol
May your day be filled with all good things!
Welcome to only a very few and unwelcome to almost all of us. Zamyrabies/cabbagejuice has been a nattering nabob of negativism, a horrible harpy and a grim gremlin ever since I started posting here.
I don’t know that her opinions are “expert”. I haven’t seen one student of hers come on here and back up anything she has ever said. I do know that I have not seen one ounce, one iota, of kindness toward Jackie in any post she has ever put here on this site.
“Rotting corpse” yes I know who that is…
Unfortunately what you do not see is the enraptured audience. Even the young girls and boys are captivated by Jackie. My last Jackie concert in Kentucky My seat was stage right, so I had a view of both Jackie about twenty feet in front of me and the audience off to the side, so it was amazing to see a full audience of expressions Jackie sees. I can now appreciate better why Jackie beams so brightly! Looking forward to her return concert in Morristown, NJ April 28th.
The same is true for any political rally, people on an emotional high. Level heads rather listen to what is said and in this case how it is sung. In both cases, politically and musically, it’s more pomp and glitter rather than substance.
What cave did you emerge from, or are you all the same person?
I call you Zamyrabies/cabbagejuice because I believe you two are the same person spouting the same garbage day after day, month after month, year after year. That’s why I seldom come here any more.
So go away and don’t come back!
Norman? Remember that Recommendation I made about Cabbage and her socks? Are you convinced yet?
“Many readers will know that the world is divided between those who find the American talent show star angelic and above mortal criticism, and those who dissent from that view.” (Mr. Lebrecht)
Many admirers of Jackie Evancho do not believe that she is above ‘mortal criticism’. Criticism, whether positive or negative, is welcome to many of us if we can get past the name-calling and unkind remarks.
The critics who have come here to comment have expertise in vocal music and they should be respected. Likewise, fans of Miss Evancho should have every liberty to speak from their hearts. If a peaceful, enthusiastic conversation is encouraged, we can learn something about music and the importance it holds for the human soul.
All you need to do is scroll up a little to view the sewer vocabulary of her fans. This is more than enough evidence of the unnatural aspect of an adolescent’s fan base that happens to be drawing pensions. If I were the parent of a girl I would be creeped out by their obsessive stalking (to the point of reviving year old threads about her), admitted emotional involvement and try to figure a way how not to attract all those flies.
It is interesting to note the richness and smoothness in Jackie’s voice as she matures. And a special note in regard to how she can draw the listener into the mood she creates, making it possible to listen to the same recording or live performance over again and hear it as though it is as fresh and exciting as the first listen. Such a special quality is reserved for a very few. Admiration for Jackie Evancho is well earned.
It is interesting to note the richness and smoothness in Jackie’s voice as she matures. And a special note in regard to how she can draw the listener into the mood she creates, making it possible to listen to the same recording or live performance over again and hear it as though it is as fresh and exciting as the first listen. Such a special quality is reserved for a very few. Admiration for Jackie Evancho is well earned!
Stephen, your comment reminds me of how beauty is like a mirror. It will be reflected in those who can recognize it…
Jackie’s voice has often been likened to the beauty of a bell. The bell is known, symbolically, as representing the divine potential in human life—the “illumined mind.” The bell’s “note is the beautiful sound of eternity that is heard by the pure mind throughout creation….” (Joseph Campbell) A bell can call us to a great adventure!
But like all symbols, the bell may be mistaken for the divine itself. So, it is wise to remember that the bell, and its sound, points to something divine within us and outside of us. Adoration, then, should be placed not upon the sound but upon that which it represents—something eternal and permanent, unlike the instrument, which is ephemeral.
By the way, did you know that your name means “crowned; wreath; victorious?” 🙂
I hate to inform you Lucy-fer, a few songs do not an illumination make. Even if any of what you or your friends say is true, they are not recognized universally as extraordinary in gifts in music, say of an Emily Bear or Alma Deutscher. That’s why this thread is old news. Plenty of kids have imitated adult voices and some of them have received prizes on National TV. Those who have sense, continue their musical education and not sit on their laurels. You and your pals are in love with a timbre but also I am sorry to inform, this is ONLY raw material, and in fact, plenty, if not tens of thousands of young singers possess pleasing sounds in their throats and engaging personalities. Go to any music school, not only the top ones, they are not in short supply.
Glad you replied to my comment, Cabbagejuice, because I wanted your professional opinion about the possible change of timbre to Miss Evancho’s voice if she were to undergo extensive vocal training.
The ‘unique’ quality of her voice is what many of her fans adore, even though you apparently discourage how she produces it. Would vocal training change her timbre significantly? Enough that fans would no longer recognize it?
Thank you for your response.
Hi all, I am late the this thread, but I would like to comment.
Cabbage Patch, I have no doubt of your expertise. However, you and Jackie’s fans are talking past each other. I took 4 music course in college (a very good school), and I was taught to see and appreciate things in classical music I had not seen before. However, I can’t remember the last time, I downloaded or listened to any pure classical music. I have just lost interest. I love classical crossover and Jackie Evancho.
In some of your earlier posts you seem to prefer Emmy Rossum’s performance in Phantom to that of Jackie’s. Then why is it, that that listeners are downloading Jackie’s rendition to that of Rossum’s?? It isn’t looks because although Jackie is pretty, Emmy Rossum is drop dead gorgeous and sexy as well. So why is that??
You are a musical expert and see and hear things that we don’t hear. I appreciate and respect your perspective. I don’t really reflect on her diction, her neck, etc. It’s just that her voice sounds so good to me (untrained and uneducated that I am). But music has a myriad of characteristics and values that transcend the technical aspects. Last Sunday I watched the final episode of Game of Thrones. I just love the theme that is played in the beginning. It won’t compare to Beethover or Mozart, but I love it and I can’t explain exactly why. It is that character of music and you know what??? Jackie has it.
Cabbage, I do respect you and am sorry for some of the personal attacks that don’t belong in this forum. I would be very interested in you response to my post
Regards,
Jerry
You realize this thread is almost two years old, so what is the point of dredging it up again? To answer your question about Emmy Rossum, she has a trained voice, so her rendition is seemingly effortless. Breathing in the middle of phrases doesn’t mar the interpretation nor jerking her head to one side to reach the high notes.
In other words, technique is something like the underside of a dress. It’s there holding everything together but not visible on the outside.
For Cabbage
My sincere apologies for posting. The last post was about two months ago and I just found this site. Don’t worry I won’t post anything anymore since it began in 2014. No more “dredging.”
That divine potential you mention is aptly referenced with the mirror sequence in Jackie’s “All of the Stars” video. And it also allows us to see the young girl she really is in relation to the superstar she is becoming. I don’t think there is any worry about Jackie being perceived as “divine”, but there is certainly a level of adoration in those who buy her music and attend her concerts.
We could say that we can see some measure of the divine in others. After all, that’s why people ‘fall in love’, yes?
But if we are not fully conscious, we get too emotionally attached to the other person, just as we often do with ideas and things, and fail to realize that some measure of the divine also resides within ourselves. Like a mirror, we can recognize it, reflected in the face of our beloved.
If we are unconscious of this dynamic, it is called ‘projection’ which can lead to much suffering, especially if the object of our adoration is removed, or, criticized by others. Because all material objects (including the bodies of human beings) are temporary, it is better to cling to the divine, imperishable entity that resides within, and without, all humankind—Spirit.
The inspiration certain voices offer to us have everything to do with a spiritual/soulful dynamic–for better, or, for worse: We have see what it can do to both critics and fans when they are not conscious of certain spiritual realities and unaware of their projections.
Lucy, you don’t fool me by your various usernames and surely not by your seemingly innocent questions, like Oh would you give your professional opinion about whether she should undergo training and what might happen to her timbre. These have been answered many times and not only by me. Just scroll up.
Your meaningless literary rhapsodies only point to one thing – obsession. “Divine reflection”, yeah right! If this were a disembodied voice, would you and your pals be talking about her every single day for the past 5 or so years? Because you are not just swooning over her sound but are personally involved in every aspect of her life, collecting hundreds of her pictures and discussing the new eruptions of physical maturity. It is so creepy that I don’t even want to go into it but there is a name: hebephilia.
“Level of adoration” indeed! The only way “All of the Stars” could get and maintain attention was to include transgenderism in it.
By way of corroboration is it openly admitted by “victorious, crowned wealth”: “…And it also allows us to SEE the young girl she really is in relation to the superstar she is becoming.”
When there are no reality checks, the word is “delusional”. Half filled moderately sized halls (some concerts had to be cancelled due to poor ticket sales) testify to the poor quality of the weed you are all smoking.
To Whom It May Concern:
This commenter has never used any other user name on the net other than ‘ben’ or, in full, ‘ben Surbana.’ Many have known me as ‘ben’ for many years on various forums.
For the record, I do not make comments on youtube.
Perhaps a person named ‘Lucy’ or ‘Lucy-fer’ will drop by and confirm that we are not the same person.
In the meantime, my question to Cabbagejuice is sincere and I look forward to her
reply.
I believe in your sincerity as far as I can throw my piano. (It is a Lester grand.)
Sorry you feel that way….
Farewell, Cabbagejuice!
I’m not (sorry, IMO, lol, 🙂 ….
Hi CABBAGEJUICE,
I would disagree with your asessment of Jackie as a light soprano. I think she’s really a high mezzo-soprano. The highest note I’ve heard her hit is B5 (she appends one ot the end of this recent Nessun Dorma performance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUoLqyKLXL4) and her high soprano notes are really light and weak like a man’s falsetto compared to her middle notes and don’t ring like those of a true soprano. Many of her fans claim she can go up to D6 but I doubt it. Here’s Jackie singing Pie Jesu at around 12. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uem4wMNCDyE Here’s Hollie Steel (BGT finalist from 2009) singing it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XGb4pyhjPA Hollie’s high notes definitely ring out a lot more than Jackie’s, she uses a much more natural vocal production, and she’s slightly older than Jackie (probably around 14). And as you seem to be an expert in classical singing, would you say that Hollie sings better than Jackie? Here’s Hollie singing I could have danced all night with a spetacular C#6 at the end https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdtmXXMBln8
I just received an alert for a thread a year and a half old, so I can’t imagine what really can be added to it. I prefer not to judge as of yet undeveloped performers that include the two you mentioned.
To sing “Nessun Dorma” or even “I Could Have Danced All Night” in a professional manner requires more than a naturally good voice. As per the latter, most of it was flat, forced and the diction was unschooled.
The lower range is where one can ascertain where a voice really lies comfortably. The two you mentioned have a lot lacking in that department. Most of pop happens to be there so it is a real pity for high and light voices to insist on doing that sort of repertoire.
You can disagree all you want about my “assessments”, but if you cannot hear all the gross errors in the videos you cite, yours cannot be professional.
I didn’t claim to be a professional or an expert (I’m not). That’s why I asked your opinion because you have established yourself as an authority in this area. Both girls are largely untrained so I understand a more discerning ear than mine could hear a lot wrong with them. I think the reason I thought Jackie was a mezzo-soprano was because of the fake vocal weight she adds to her voice. Hollie doesn’t do that so sounds higher and lighter. Is that also the reason Jackie can’t hit the high notes? I personally find Hollie a lot more pleasant to listen to than Jackie because her voice is more pure and clear (I think Jackie should sound very similar if she sang naturally). She also strikes me as having a much more passionate and expressive delivery than Jackie and has better dynamic range. These are just my layperson observations so I apologize if my attempts to describe them make little sense to you.
Type of voice is not only range but quality. Hitting a high B like that without training shows the voice is more there than in the lower range. I get really weary of the parade of kids before the public these days who should be in school instead. Raw talent, whatever the skill may be, still must be disciplined and refined. Hollie seems to have a naturally bigger sound, could be eventually good for musical theatre but not now.
Pop really is for belters, that the two of them are not suited for. The bane of Jackie’s admirers, “opera” (!), might just be what she has the most natural capacity for, not dramatic roles, but light, even coloratura ones.
Seems like a pretty accurate analysis of their voices. Just so you know, Hollie is taking a very different path from Jackie. She was on BGT in 2009 but has been mostly under the radar since then and has only done a modicum of public performing in the elapsed years and never as high profile as Jackie’s. She’s now focusing on school and studying at a performing arts college to be musical theatre singer (getting proper training). And you might be surprised to learn that Hollie actually can belt pretty well (at least to my ears). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUc_8RTJBIQ
I’m really not interested in teeny-boppers trying to be sultry vamps. As soon as they get their driver’s licence or even before they are trying out that whisper pant, a la Marilyn Monroe. It’s too bad when the kids have real talent they want to go the way of Madonna or Cyrus.
This in regard to your much earlier posts but I don’t quite understand how Jackie’s emotionalism is OTT. To the contrary, I find Jackie’s delivery to be very bland and severely lacking in expressiveness/emotion “as cold as ice”. Her phrasing is nonexistent and, as you mentioned, her diction is often unintelligible. A singer that I think is too OTT emotional with her interpretations would be Sierra Boggess. When I compare her rendition of “Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again” with Sarah Brightman’s, Sierra is much more dramatic while Sarah is much more subdued and expresses the emotion of the piece in a more subtle way which I prefer. Links: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXY70Oml86w and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSRNjnpM7y4 Please explain.
I don’t like either of the links. You have to understand I don’t take any of them seriously since for me it is a caricature of singing. The Phantom of the Opera is just that, a Phantom. If done well, however, can be effective and entertaining but substituting arm wrenching emotion instead of actual singing for me is just schlock.
I love to hear Jackie sing. I do not care if others do not like her singing, it will make it easier for me to get good seats at her concerts if they don’t. I do not even know why I love her singing. I just do! I used to love Def Lepard, and I never really knew why. I really love the Eagles but can’t tell you why. For Jackie Evancho fans explanations are not needed, for detractors, explanations are impossible.
Guys, guys, guys… this is really funny. I couldn’t read the whole thing but I have the picture here. My comment on the conversation:
CabbageJuice is likely right about his technical analysis of her voice. I would only add, though, what would be a technical analysis of Bruce Springstein or Louis Armstrong? Now – to contextualize technical analysis – in the end it is the impact a singer has on the audience, *I believe* and not purely their voice that matters. You can have someone who works the stage and has charisma and they can have more impact than a purer/better voice without the charisma. That is my opinion, others will differ.
Everyone else – I actually do follow the logic that CabbageJuice way up there was asked what his emotional impact from hearing her was and he kept going to technical analysis. That is interesting and something to ponder. He may have it but on being asked twice did not say anything emotional. Aspergers? I’ll leave that to CabbageJuice and his close family to think about (or not). When some people hear music they first look at the technical side, and if passes their technical test then they allow it to affect them emotionally. This is common for people who are extremely knowledgeable in the subject.
Basically – there is truth on both sides. I have friends, some in the biz, who love Sarah Brightman and some who can’t stand her. It is fine. This is art.
What CabbagePatch needs to understand is that the sum-part of her performances affect a ton of people quite strongly, including myself.
What everyone else needs to understand is that CabbagePatch is probably right about his early-stated potential improvements she could make.
If we really want to know it is actually relatively easy. There is an aspect to this that is not subjective. And keep in mind I think Cabbage realizes that she has a huge impact on other people, so that point is made. We should list his potential improvements for her and we can list them, let’s say there are 5, let’s throw in 5 other qualities so it isn’t clear what we are after, and ask 10 other high-end voice coaches to rate her and someone like Battle, Rossum, etc., maybe 2 more on those qualities from 1-10. Something like that. If everyone cares so much – make it happen! 🙂
You people are living in a time warp. Unfortunately, she cannot fill even a medium hall halfway. Many concerts had to be cancelled because of poor ticket sales. It is a pity that her main fans are pensioners who have little to do except troll her sites and forums.
The beauty and elegance of Jackie’s voice has touched millions. And continues to do so. That is the only thing that matters. For those of us who understand and appreciate her incredible gift, we are truly blessed to have lived to experience it.
Cabbage:
Your comments here are personal attacks and are totally uncalled for.
1. Jackie sings mostly classical crossover so why wouldn’t you expect her fans to be older?
The fans of opera are even older. I don’t think you see people in their teens, 20s or 30s with ear buds in their ears listening to Wagner or Puccini. At any rate interest in opera is waning and has been the subject of debate as to he cause in opera news.
2. I don’t know much about her concerts, but I do know that is that she has two gold and one platinum albums.
3. Why wouldn’t Jackie’s fans post here. The title of this thread was “The New Jackie Evancho, How far has she come. You think the fans that post here are trolls?? What a thing to say.
Lastly, it is my personal opinion, that because she is not proceeding as the music experts say, she is not going to continue to be successful and improve. Other talented performers such as Barbra Streisand and Lady Gaga (accepted into Julliard at age 11, which she declined and Tisch School at 15) have gone in a different direction and done well.
incidentally, Jackie is exploring POP and you may see a big fan base of younger fans in the future
The above only goes to prove that a clique of older guys with little to do with their time, troll Jackie sites like dazed bobby soxers. The point is she made a big splash as a tiny kid doing mainly imitations of other singers, as endearing as Shirley Temple but not as original. Her small stature extended this cutesy period but this was not an advantage, instead confusing and making more difficult the transition to being accepted as an adult.
16 years old is not cute anymore. A performer that age has to offer more than that, technical proficiency, at the very least. The geezers still won’t give up, the bulk of her fan base. So they have to be catered to otherwise there would be hardly any interest.
As for pop, a singer, male or female, has to have grit in their lower to middle range. There is no evidence of natural belt tones in a light soprano who easily trotted out floated tones about the treble staff. This will and cannot change. Anything else is delusional and a pity if continuing to earn money from singing and paying the family’s bills is the objective here.
Cabbage:
Your comments about Jackie’s fans are insulting and inappropriate. For your interest, I am an Ivy League educated physician who frequently listens to Jackie’s music (albeit her music post age 13) driving to and from work. I am not a geezer and I have little free time. In college I took 4 semesters of courses in classical music and played the violin so I have some music background, although I know nothing about voice. I came onto this site to see what professionals like you thought of her voice and you made your opinions very clear. I respect that. I do not respect your penchant for personally attacking her fans and generalizing them as “geezers” for example. How old are opera fans?? Teenagers, young people in their 20s or 30s? I think not.
When I was a teenager, I listened almost exclusively to classical music and opera. As I aged, my brain “changed” and I lost interest in that genre and began to listen to classical crossover. Why do I like to listen to her voice?? I can’t explain it. I just do, as do millions of her fans. I also like to listen to Karen Carpenter who I doubt had any formal voice training. Why?? I can’t explain it, I just do and I am not alone.
If you want to make comment about her voice and future, that is fine and I can learn from you. However, you demean yourself with personal attacks.
If you are a physician, then you probably heard of the term “obsession” in psychology class. This thread is two years old, why dredge it up? Her career for whatever reason is at an all time low. Perhaps gear shifting in adolescence is the cause. At any rate her voice is not a hot topic at all and fewer people go to see her by now hackneyed concerts. Not changing the repertoire may be an other reason.; They heard it already.
But you guys will not give up. You are not the only one who trolls the internet looking for excuses to talk about her. She occupies a central place in the lives of mainly older folk who gather EVERY DAY to talk about her, swap gossip and praise her to the skies.
This is really goofy and age inappropriate. It is a pity the bulk of her fan base has diminished to this hard core chunk of dazed pensioners.
If you like her music, good for you. Everyone else doesn’t need to hear about it.
And, CJ, you think people need to hear about how you don’t like her music?
So what if older people are particularly taken with her music. Let her angel voice sing them to their rest.
Jackie who? What music?
Jackie Evancho. Her music. And by the way, I don’t “troll the internet looking for excuses to talk about her.” This is actually the first time I’ve talked about her, aside from a couple of comments on youtube. I talk about many things online, as I assume other Jackie admirers do also.
Do consider that she is now an adolescent which is never easy, and I can imagine her challenges as she balances the work of individuation with her career and being so much in the public eye.
Hi Jen
CJ is just nasty. He/she speaks about obsessive. It is CJ who posts about everything. Take a look at the thread about Jackie’s transgender sister. Over 40% of the posts are from CJ and it has nothing to do with music. CJ is obsessed with her and posts multiple times on anything Jackie. CJinsults and tries to demean anyone who is a fan
Sigh…yes, I did take a look at the thread about Juliet, and have looked through enough of this thread to see what you are talking about, Jerry. I am guessing CJ is not a happy person. Those who are happy and fulfilled within themselves don’t need to put others down in that way. I hope he or she is able to resolve that, whether or not it means appreciating Jackie’s music.
The shame of it is that CJ is very knowledgeable.
Yes, I’m sure. But knowledge and intellect has its limits when not aligned with the heart.
I hate to inform you but this thread is more than two years old. So who is trolling the internet looking for Jackie news?
But not only that, you claim to be an expert on me, someone you never met, saying I am an allegedly unhappy person and by implication do not have my knowledge and intellect “aligned with the heart”? By what right or nerve do you have to write that?
Doesn’t this go beyond the limits of fandom? I could say the same about you. How would you like it?
Obsessive is as obsessive does.
“I hate to inform you but this thread is more than two years old. So who is trolling the internet looking for Jackie news?”
If you want to think that’s what I’m doing, be my guest.
So this is an old thread. I looked through it and had the impulse to respond. Unless you remove the whole thread, or close it to further comments, you have to expect that people might post replies.
“But not only that, you claim to be an expert on me, someone you never met, saying I am an allegedly unhappy person and by implication do not have my knowledge and intellect ‘aligned with the heart’? By what right or nerve do you have to write that?
Doesn’t this go beyond the limits of fandom? I could say the same about you. How would you like it? ”
Consider, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the people you trash here, might read your comments, and feel hurt. That’s the kind of thing one thinks about when their heart is open, and aligned with the mind.
Jen, this is not an active thread. For whatever reason the girl’s career has been put on hold. So there is no need for pro and con comments because she is not doing much publicly, rather concentrating on her schoolwork, probably a very good idea.
However you people can’t let anything go even if it is a year or two old. If you read the posts carefully, ANYONE who has said a word of constructive criticism are those who get unmercifully trashed. But let’s say trashing is done on an equal basis, still this is a long time ago. Are you fans self-appointed avengers no matter what time limit? You don’t know me and yet you have the nerve to insinuate that my heart is not aligned with my mind. What did I say about you? I don’t know you and you don’t know me. In fact, this discussion would be pointless except for the need for me to respond in kind.
Hi CJ
A couple of years ago, I was listening to Sara Brightman on Apple music and I received a notice with “you might also like” and several names popped up. One of those names was Jackie Evancho. I admit I was taken by her performance on America’s Got Talent, but I really liked her voice. So I googled her (you call that trolling) and I landed here. I really enjoyed this thread (even though it was old). I know little if anything about voice, but I read the thread in its entirety and actually learned a little something.
CJ, if you think Jackie’s fans are misguided, educate us, inform us, but don’t insult us personally.. It doesn’t get you anywhere and people stop listening.
As I stated in a previous post, you seem to be very knowledgeable and I can learn from you. If you feel that Jackie Evancho is overrated, then convince me. Just don’t insult me.
Jerry
Why don’t I accept “Just don’t insult me”? Well, first of all, Jerry, I don’t think about you. I don’t wait for months to start up an old discussion in order to get some licks in.
Who is insulting whom? Before I received an email alert, you were dissing me together with Jen. This is what you wrote:
“CJ is just nasty. He/she speaks about obsessive. It is CJ who posts about everything. Take a look at the thread about Jackie’s transgender sister. Over 40% of the posts are from CJ and it has nothing to do with music. CJ is obsessed with her and posts multiple times on anything Jackie. CJ insults and tries to demean anyone who is a fan…The shame of it is that CJ is very knowledgeable.”
You can really take your little roasting party offline about whomever you want to trash. I really would not wash that kind of laundry in public. You’re supposed to be a doctor. acting out like that isn’t very nice.
I have done nothing but calling you out for the tenor your posts. My first post about Jackie in June, 2016 was met with “why are you dredging this up…” My subsequent posts and that of others is to call you out for turning every discussion (where the poster doesn’t agree with you) into something personal. You called me obsessive and included me with “geezers”, trolling the internet, and on and on…..
On the other hand, I have only criticized your posts, nothing more. And yes your posts are nasty and insulting.
It’s my business how I answer insults thrown at me. If you don’t like the “tenor” of my posts, please get over it. It is not healthy to nurse such a grudge.
I too would be interested to know why you think Jackie is overrated and her fans misguided. Educate us. We may not buy into it, but we wouldn’t diss your honest opinion.
But here is a bit of educating for you. Jackie’s career is not “on hold.” She has a new CD out, Someday At Christmas, and is performing today in Providence, RI. Other performances coming up are in Paducah, KY, 12/17, and in Campbell, CA, 2/10.
All of this info is available at her Facebook page.
And no, I’m not traveling around to all her shows. I hope to see her live some day when she performs closer to my home.
Hello Jen, fans over the years have been regarding Jackie Evancho as the Second Coming. This promise, although it may happen someday, has not yet been fulfilled. You can scroll up to my posts in the beginning of this thread where I politely say that her voice is high, meaning that the recorded pop music doesn’t do her justice.
The attacks were immediate. Anything less than adoration is considered fodder for the vilest of name calling and character denunciation. I received an alert in my email about this thread and upon coming here saw you were not discussing Jackie but instead trashing my character. So why come more than two years later to do just that?
Do I have a right to the suspicion that Jackie fans look for places where they can satisfy some urge for vengeance?
I was asked some seemingly innocent questions by fans like you are doing now and my answers were completely twisted to show I lack empathy or something like that.
All you need to do is start with my first posts here that say she is a high soprano. Given that, pop music is really not for that kind of voice since one needs stronger chops. She can record music in a lower range but when she sings such music in public, it is not convincing at all. What is relevant to this thread is her two year concert tour with virtually the same material and no improvement. Sorry, but it is the truth. By the age of 16 there should be evenness in the voice, not like it was patched together somewhere in the middle. There are so many things one has to learn from formal study. Avoiding the issue is strange for a singer and even ridiculous for a professional one. It may have worked when she was copying youtube videos as a smart young kid but that system is way past its usefulness. It doesn’t even fill medium size concert halls.
I’m curious, how do you know her concerts are not well attended or that she has not improved? I assume you are not checking them out yourself.
Anyway, I’m sure there is room for improvement. She is still very young. Her voice does seem more suited for opera than “pop.”
And I’m sure her path will unfold as and when it should.
I am interested on principle what singers are doing. This happens to be my profession. And why shouldn’t I see if Nessun Dorma has improved or not? Having sung this hundreds of times by now should mean some kind of bettering. But without training it will never happen. In fact, by now there has been mainly a compounding of errors, technical and pragmatic.
16 is not that young for being able to control one’s voice. There are plenty young people in top music schools and otherwise who have beautiful voices and know how to use them. Technique is essential for any instrument or physical skill. The mush and gush of fans is all out of proportion. Even worse is their vindictiveness towards any criticism. In fact, they are obstacles on her way to self-improvement.
Again, how do you know attendance at her concerts is low?
If that is true–as many admirers as she has, there is probably more of an audience for rock and pop singers.
I know she admires Emily Rossum who is well trained. Maybe at some point she’ll be motivated to polish up her amazing natural talent.
I’m guessing you would like to be her manager. And vocal coach.
And I think her peers are more into other kinds of music. So be it. If she ends up
doing opera, most opera fans are also older.
It’s not just about the singing but her love of what she’s doing, and joy at the applause. That’s a large part of her appeal. She beams when she finishes a song and knows she’s done great. Her happiness is infectious and her gratitude for the applause is touching. We should all be following our bliss and rejoicing in our gifts, as she does. I hope she never “grows out” of that.
Who wouldn’t love applause? But that alone is not an indicator of how well one is doing, by a certain crowd anyway. In fact, it might be misleading to the extent that the person comes to believe there is no need for improvement.
Your guesses are wrong about my wanting to be her manager and vocal coach. As for the first, I don’t have any business skills. Regarding the second, I don’t take pupils unless they want to work and it is exacting labor. Very few have been able to get away with not having intensive training.
I know one soprano who had a smooth career from the age of 18 but lost her voice in her middle age which should not have happened. Since she didn’t know anything about technique, she wasn’t able to retrace her steps.
Caruso is one example of having had a rocky road after a bad teacher in his youth but recovered brilliantly. Most child prodigies like Beverly Sills, Julie Andrews stopped performance during adolescence to build their techniques, emerging later fully formed.
Now if one can imagine what the cumulative effect of continuing to sing with bad habits in public during the most formative period, well, that is the essence of a very poor approach.
Damage to vocal cords is not the same thing as bad vocal habits. The latter has to do with set up, in other words, putting the least strain on the cords themselves by what is called breath support starting from the abdominal muscles. Pressure on the cords is what causes loss of elasticity, usually happening at the middle or end of a strenuous career. If a young person is not singing demanding repertoire for many hours a week instead being heavily miked, nothing catastrophic is going to happen except that there will be a whole bag of bad habits which will be tremendous to disentangle and correct.
She still breathes high as far I have seen, gulping air rather than expanding the chest. She presses on the lower notes to get a murky sound but that timbre is not joined up to the rest of the scale, causing an audible gap between the two registers. These and more are basic technical issues that should be solved long before one performs professionally. Whatever is concocted in a studio really doesn’t mean a thing.
As for the voice or timbre coming from the “mind”, the actual sound comes from the resonators in the “head”, like the vibrating wood of a violin or piano.
Thanks for the info. Very informative
I’m really all not that bad. If you start from the beginning of the thread, I was polite but instantly got boxed by the elderly Jackie freaks.
All of that is in the past. We can move forward. Thanks
For whatever it’s worth a certain 12 year old Dutch singer is in more danger of losing her voice since she sings high and loud but without proper muscular support. The result is a pervasive vibrato, that some people may like but is very healthy in the sense that she hardly sings any really clean tones. It all starts from this, like violin teachers having their students play open strings over and over again until they get the bowing right. To compound technical problems in repeated public performance is really untenable and unfair for any of these precocious kids. Singing pop music in a lower range heavily miked or in a studio will not be catastrophic except possibly a high, light soprano.going into a wrong direction really unsuited for her voice and also personality.
I assume that you are talking about Amira. Even my untrained ear can hear the forcing.
Are you certain she is damaging her voice? I was curious so I did a quick search and found this from a voice therapist for children:
“Every girl is individual; every voice is individual. Even Jackie Evancho. Unless I had personally worked with a young singer like Jackie, I could not be positive that her unusual timbre was a result of unhealthy manipulation, or that the demands placed on her instrument were extreme.”
She goes on to say that _most_ young singers can’t sing like that without great vocal cost. For my part, I don’t get the sense she is under great strain when she sings. Quite the opposite, it is clear she loves to sing and is having a great time.
I am not saying it wouldn’t be a good idea for her to get some training. I trust that she will make the right choices for herself, at the right time.
I have another question for CJ now that the conversation has become less personal.
On Jackie’s site, she states that she regularly sees an ENT physician at the University of Pittsburgh Medical school who specializes in singers. She also sees a similar physician in New York, I believe at NYU. Jackie states that she has been told that her vocal cords are pristine. Interestingly, she has been told that her vocal cords look unremarkable and that her voice comes from her brain.
My question to CJ is, when someone is singing incorrectly, how long does it take before, they damage their vocal cords, and can an ENT physician detect it
Thanks,
I have read that about her voice coming from her mind, not her vocal apparatus. So interesting!
So CJ, it is not that you are denying her gift. You just think there could be improvement in her technique, and that is certainly valid.
I suggest it would be good to back off on your derision of her fans. You may think their adoration is a bit over the top, but if she is bringing joy into their lives, I’m sure you agree that is a good thing. And even more important among the elderly, who are prone to depression.
No, Jen, you got it backwards. Quite a few elderly Jackie fans are self-appointed knights in shining armor who have nothing better to do than avenge imagined slights to their lady’s honor, not that she really cares about it or them.
All you need to do is start from the beginning of the thread here and see where I was diagnosed with Asperger’s because I do not worship at her shrine.
It’s not just “bit over the top” to have blogs with hundreds of pictures of Jackie by non-family members. Some of them are fans of other kid singers. Interesting!
It’s not a little extreme to get together EVERY DAY to talk about a 16 year old girl? It’s not more than a little weird to search out two year old articles to diss her critics and call her nasty?
You wrote: “I am guessing CJ is not a happy person. Those who are happy and fulfilled within themselves don’t need to put others down in that way…knowledge and intellect has its limits when not aligned with the heart.”
You don’t even know me, we never communicated but you think you have a right to judge me. Even your little exchange with Jerry is mild compared to what has been thrown at not only me, but a couple of other non-believers in the Jackie cult. Fortunately, as she gets older and less cutesy-pie this phenomenon will fizzle out. She is not the Second Coming of music despite the claims that her fans were making. She may have even missed the boat big time by now by not getting training, by insisting in singing in a lower range and by getting entangled in questionable social controversies.
OK, when I wrote that which you quoted, I had just read what you wrote about Jackie’s sister Juliet. I didn’t and still don’t see why you had to spout off in that vein, on what must be a very emotionally charged and sensitive issue for those involved.
“You don’t even know me, we never communicated but you think you have a right to judge me.” The same is true of you, Juliet, and the whole transgender issue. “Dysfunctional” as you called it, is in the eye of the beholder.
As for the fans who are uber-obsessed with Jackie–whatever floats their boat. Live and let live.
Sorry, I don’t accept that either. You are calling me out on my opinions about Jackie’s brother on a two year old thread about her singing when actually it is none of your business. You can say “let live” to yourself first.
It is also strange that all of a sudden after months of no activity on this thread, two Jackie fans pop up from out of nowhere to discuss how nasty CJ is, in particular what I allegedly said about her brother. What a coincidence! Or maybe not!
This thread and the other one were new to me and I was impulsed to comment. If you don’t want new posts, I suggest you close the thread.
Jackie is new to me, too. I only discovered her recently. So yes, I was interested in finding out more. This thread has been quite an education.
I believe that we should just stick to questions about music. I looked back at this thread and am beginning to understand what triggered CJ’s responses. On the other hand, let’s move past this and not question motivations or personalities . I think we were all angry and I apologize for the tone of my earlier posts. At this point, it serves no point to rehash why someone posts as they do.
.
I have learned a little about voice (I knew nothing before)
I learned that singing properly is a complex and time consuming process requiring a great deal of practice and discipline.
Singing incorrectly can and will damage a voice in almost all cases (Barbra Steisand never had voice training and can still sing-she is an outlier).
At any rate, thank you for educating me CJ
Jerry
I really wish the best for the girl. She not only has a wonderful instrument but an endearing personality to go with it. Having said that, the erosion of innocence worries me, not only for performers but general society.
You can’t really succeed in popular music unless there is an element of sleaze. In my opinion, tiny dancers have really been compromised by being put in a cage with hulking men jumping around and even on top, and all sorts of things that singers have to do in order to catch the attention of the public.
I don’t think Blank Space, Leonard Cohen’s Halleluiah, and other songs with jaded lyrics are for young girls. There will plenty of time later for world weary angst.
What attracted people to Jackie in the first place were her Pie Jesu, Our Father, songs that radiate sweetness and as many have said here, hope.
I’ll only make a passing reference to the social controversy surrounding her older sibling. This is a perfect example of the dangers of premature fame, not only for the one in the spotlight but the others who are left out.
It is really dangerous to give into the whims of kids and put them on the road to changing their sex until they have the mental capacity which could only come after the 2nd decade. Making a public icon of that sibling is also wrong for a number of reasons. If it were sincere, then test it by not making it a public issue. If the objective is to get attention, it would soon fizzle out, by not receiving any. The other reason is not being able to reverse oneself very easily. This would invite more disdain and criticism, not to mention having to relearn what it is to be one’s biological sex, not a nice thing for children or adolescents to have to go through. Another reason is having linked up Jackie’s career to this controversial issue that she didn’t need in the first place and would have been better served by just sticking to the music.
I wish you Jen and Jerry all the best!!!
I am just catching up with this article (JE thread) almost a year after the last post and would like to respectfully add what I hope is a few constructive remarks. I find CJ’s comments and rebuttals come from experience and are constructive and informative which, when addressing music publicly, can be like walking in a mine field. The mine field analogy is used because of the emotional attachment many people who sample (just listen) to music but who have not “lived” it, will experience it differently. JE IMHO is a rare talent, no question. I enjoy listening to her as do her fans but I’m not one of them in the “cult” sense. When she sings opera I don’t believe she does it masterfully, although her fans tear up when they hear her. Her fans hear songs like “O Mio Babinno Caro” and “Ave Maria” for which emotion is purposefully elicited but these songs are written for “plays” which are stage performances, not intended as one off’s. I think Pavarotti may have opened Pandora’s box with Nessun Dorma. From a practical point of view, antithetical to the swooning adoration, the music of an opera MUST communicate a story to advance the play. If the words of a song cannot be understood or worse, cannot be heard because the singer can’t project those words or pronounce them clearly, the music fails and by extension, the play fails. Many times while listening to her arias her voice collapses or I can’t discern what she is saying, even when the song is in English. I actually blame the orchestra in some instances but her volume is very muted for opera although she is usually pitch perfect. I don’t want to debate the merits of the old argument about traditional opera not needing amplifiers. The vocal musical instrument has a number of dimensions and to master them all, takes many years. JE has a solid base from which to grow and I hope she continues to refine her gift.
Further to Barbra Streisand and those lucky people who do not need training, well, I knew one person I accompanied and help make a tape many years ago. She said her voice was always well placed and went on the opera stage at 18. Rosa Ponselle might fit into that category of hardly having to do all the spade work that most of us are faced with, simply because we develop bad habits along the way, mainly from speech.
The point about the above 3 singers, they did not have any bad habits to begin with. If I remember rightly, Barbara Hendricks was one of those lucky few who needed mainly polishing by mentors such as Jennie Tourel. Similarly, I have known instrumentalists who didn’t need much by way of technical training and just breezed through their studies. They simply had a knack and no one spoiled their natural setup.
Bad habits are really a bugbear and even after eradicating them, they have a habit of returning when one is in stressful performance situations. If repeating a certain way of breathing in one’s formative years or other quirks, the problem is magnified to a great degree.
Peggy Lee is another who didn’t need training. After she joined Benny Goodman’s band:
http://www.peggylee.com/library/730325.html
“Peggy, who had never had a singing lesson outside of choir practice and the high school glee club, decided then that she should take a few. Goodman noticed the difference right away and told her to stop it. It was good advice. Her untrained voice on the now-classic Goodman recording of “Why Don’t You Do Right?” sold millions and launched Peggy’s solo career as a radio, television, nightclub and recording star.”
I do see your point CJ about the kinds of songs Jackie sings. She is best suited for sweetness and light. My own personal favorite is her rendition of “The First Noel.”
https://youtu.be/qpjrlFI0ZEY
While Jackie invests a lot of feeling into the song, Noel, she is very much like her Dutch counterpart at the same age of 12 whose notes actually shake. Problems like audible breathing and stretching the neck to the right when she reaches high notes could have been eliminated back then. Instead most of the technical issues have been compounded over the years.
While I don’t notice the things you mention CJ, I do understand where you are coming from, as one who is trained in these things.
Recently Jackie previewed a song that she wrote herself, and included the lyrics: https://youtu.be/j_I92meUHV0
I think it is much influenced by the theme and songs of Phantom of the Opera.
I’ve written poetry myself from a young age, and song lyrics that have been put to music. I can certainly see that she has potential as a lyricist, but she has quite a ways to go. It is a challenge for anyone to write good poetry, and song lyrics are a kind of poetry.
So I would tell her to read a LOT of poetry, preferably starting with something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Book-English-Verse/dp/0192141821
And take some classes in English literature and in poetry writing. Hopefully Jackie will be headed to college in the next few years and will have the chance to do so.
More worrying than the possible misuse of her voice, I find the lyrics horrifying for a girl of 16: “I know that there are ghosts that haunt my mind And sadness is a comfortable sublime. I’m sure that there’s so much out there to find. For now I know these monsters aren’t so kind. How long can we all survive In this pitch-black paradise. It’s you Keeping me alive.There’s a ghost inside my head and it’s leaving me for dead. The haunting is all that I have left and I’ll never let him go. It’s so dark and beautiful The haunting won’t let me forget.”
I’m sorry, even though Hollywood and the pop music industry promote this sort of thing, it is really dangerous to dabble in it. In other words, don’t play with fire, if you don’t want to get burnt.
Young people should be filling their heads with positive and beautiful thoughts that will carry them through the rest of their lives, not play around with ghoulish dark side of life. Blank Space and Halleluiah were bad enough. I wouldn’t allow my children or students to sing or listen to any of this stuff. My Catholic school back then would have forbidden it.
For my part CJ, I think she’s been overly influenced by Phantom of the Opera. She first saw the movie when she was seven or eight and has been singing the songs ever since.
Well, Emmy Rossum certainly isn’t a bad role model, and it is a great musical with great songs which Jackie frequently performs (Think of Me and Music of the Night). Anyway, I can see its influence in her song lyric.
I just hope she explores more of all the other great musicals out there.
Just playing with possibilities, I can see her as Alice in a new musical of Alice in Wonderland!
Children have a habit of taking things literally. So maybe being inundated with Phantom of the Opera is not exactly healthy for a 6 year old. However, parents can offset that by other good influences, not encouraging forays into ghoulish paintings or makeup. One can go too far in Halloween, for example.
I very much believe in a saying, “Don’t take down a wall until you know the reason it was put up.” People were more conservative with their kids in the past. Well, maybe nothing bad will come from imitating sultry singers at the age of 12 (she’s not the only one), or attracting a fan base mainly composed of elderly men by now who still collect her pictures and talk about her EVERY DAY, joined by some women, but that is beside the point because their interest one assumes is somewhat different.
Nothing of value would be lost by bowing out of public life for a few years, concentrating on her studies and voice the way so many prodigies did in the past. Also the techy problem with the other sibling might disappear when this particular family is not a focal point of interest anymore.
I agree, would probably be a good thing for her to take a few years off for her studies and just Life in general. Here’s hoping.
It does seem the Evancho family is very close and supportive of one another. She’s got that going for her among other things. This is sweet:
https://youtu.be/ZxuHYypTa2I
Sorry, I have a different opinion about families and how parents should protect their children.
When a child is the breadwinner of the family, it is difficult for her to retreat for a couple years and divert the money into her own studies. I hear, however, that the house has been paid for by her and there are college funds for all her siblings. Hopefully this doesn’t include expensive hormone treatments for someone.
Whatever you may think of the sex change CJ, what’s done is done. There is power in acceptance. I’m confident that whatever issues Jackie’s family may have, she and they will be fine.
Just a couple of comments. She is now 8th on the list of the 10 richest teenagers.
Another comment about hormone treatments. I have met and spoke with several transgenders including those who are in the process.
CJ-just consider this. I am a male and since I was very young I have enjoyed looking at women. It appears you are a female.
Now just imagine what it would be like if you have mind of a female and like to look at and be close to males and then to look down and see a hairy chest without breasts and you also have male genitalia. Can you imagine what that would be like. Now to be fair, that is not true of all transgenders, but it is true for the majority. It is truly horrible for those people. Just like many who are born with genetic abnormalities in the structure of their bodies, some are born with abnormalities in their brain (their brain thinks that they are one sex, but their body is the other).
Good points Jerry. To go through something like sex change surgery, one must indeed be _very_ motivated.
CJ is female? I assumed you were a guy CJ, because of the byline at the top of the page.
The very fact you two were not able to figure out if I were male or female, already debunks the notion of “female brain”. All these years feminists were preaching there is no difference between men and women except for their genitalia – that women can be presidents, astronauts and even fight along men in the trenches. My femaleness does not come from the brain but from the body, biofeedback, how I feel space, how the rhythms of the cycles inform my being and thinking, not the other way round. So please don’t think you can educate me about that. I have a traditional, religious, view of sexuality that well served high civilizations, not only our own.
What it means is to be reality based, to conform to what we were born with. Anything else is delusional and destructive in the end, to use bodily functions for which they were not intended. A person who calls himself a doctor should know you can’t change DNA. The whole issue of transgender is so volatile that children should not be allowed to make such catastrophic decisions. This is borne out by the American College of Pediatricians.
But there is something else that is an unfortunate corollary of too much TV, films and entertainment, one gets to think that it is reality when it isn’t. Anyone can make a lovey-dovey family film but it doesn’t have to be taken for real or the truth. Instead, the dark,brooding lyrics of a 16 year old who is allowed to dabble in ghoulishness, the utter dysfunction of a brother trying to get some of the spotlight by being “different”, these show there is more, much more, than meets the eye. Even the fact that she is not getting proper lessons, instead, is worrisome. But all of is based on fantasy, they still want to project a God-descended voice that doesn’t have to follow the rules of physics. Her fans that remain are emotionally involved as though she were their daughter or granddaughter but miss the dinosaurs in the room.
It might seem strange that a musician such as myself could speak so rationally, but I did learn the difference between art and reality and the absolute need not to confuse the two.
FWIW CJ, I was certain you were male, and not just because of the byline I mentioned. When Jerry said “it appears you are a female,” I thought he was privy to some inside info. Your energy still feels masculine to me.
I read once that all families are dysfunctional because people just don’t know who they are. Well, just now I found the quote online:
“There is a new term used to describe relationships that aren’t working. The word is ‘dysfunctional’ and the phrase is ‘coming from a dysfunctional family’. Well, the news is that you all come from dysfunctional families. And I will tell you why. Because any family who doesn’t know who they are will provide you with a picture of who you are that is not true. They, out of their own illusory confusion, have projected onto you the same confusion. All families are dysfunctional. You can split it up into any degree of dysfunction you wish, but I see it only one way. You either know who you are, or you don’t!
Until the moment you break through the web of guilt, you will not be functioning in some way or another. I mean this with all of the Love that I have. The only thing keeping you from totally knowing who you are is the gridwork of your own belief of who you are. I will tell you again, you are total Love, total Divine Power-activated! You are a symphony of color and sound, past the wildest imaginings of your physical body, which illuminates your mind and heart. That is who you are. Anything short of that is a lie, and I beg you to stop perpetuating the lie.”
It strikes me that one reason many are so enamored of Jackie and her talent, is that when she is at her best, she reflects that kind of energy and power back to us. We’re all awesome, we’re all “stars” if we could just let our own light shine.
And again CJ, I’m not saying that some formal training wouldn’t be a good thing for Jackie.
That was a nice quote but I would add a caveat, to accept to stay in one’s limitations. To strive to be without limits is a dangerous idea because it is erroneous. There is still plenty we can do with what we are given. Most do not even attain a minute part of what we are capable of. There are boundaries of time and structure. We cannot go back in history nor become something we are not. A grown man cannot become a 6 year old girl. Anything else is delusional.
Contrary to Disney, “Fate is NOT kind and when you wish upon a star, you cannot become something other that what you are.” Children should learn that lesson as early as possible, should be eased into reality with good adult role models.
This is more like it in my books:
“‘Tis the gift to be simple, ’tis the gift to be free
‘Tis the gift to come down where we ought to be,
And when we find ourselves in the place just right,
‘Twill be in the valley of love and delight.”
When we find the “place just right”, it is something that no other person can occupy and yes, subject to limitations.
Hi CJ
Your first comment is very interesting
“The very fact you two were not able to figure out if I were male or female, already debunks the notion of “female brain.” Huh???
I think it is time for me to say goodbye.
I don’t have a female brain. It’s just a thinking apparatus. There is nothing in my head that intrinsically desires dolls, dresses or attracts me to guys, although I do enjoy looking at women in so far as I compare them to myself. Counter to that are the effects of hormones that inform my emotions. This is a body thing, not a mind one.
Most of sexuality is culturally moderated, hence the need for good guidance. I knew personally a sister who was very sportive, couldn’t bear to wear a dress, and her brother who played with dolls. When hormones kicked in they turned out quite normal. that is because no one put it in their heads that they might be the opposite sex.
This is only commonsense and conventional wisdom, not the modern ever shifting of boundaries and limits..
I was going to leave, but I had to respond to your latest post.
CJ-most of what you are saying is just incorrect. How much of gender identification is cultural and how much is genetic is much debated. The overwhelming scientific evidence is that it is almost all genetic. Yes it is in the brain. Let me just give some of the arguments. Much of the evidence (although indirect), is found by studying lower animals. With the exception of some higher apes, mammals do not have self awareness that we have. So no one is teaching them to be males or females. Yet many mammals will kill or be killed for the right to mate with members of the opposite sex. Some humans do that as well. Their gender is in their brain. It is how they are wired, just like it is how we are wired. Mammals are attracted by sight, smells, sounds, etc. Even in humans, there are mating behaviors. For example, if a male is staring at a woman, she may signal that he may approach by cocking her head which she does not do consciously. This is an evolutionary “come-on.” There are other subtle male and female signs.
Let me also add that I agree with you that sex change should not be entered into at a very young age.
This surely is off topic, but I am not impressed by the phrase “overwhelmingly scientific evidence” because I don’t see any of it and there is plenty of rebuttal evidence.
My cat knows she mates with males because of her hormones, not because she thinks it. Any cat or feline though, all over the world will know how to give birth to kittens because it is hard wired. Humans though have different rituals of rites of passage, courtship and birthing according to their many different cultures.
As for “brain”, it is not just in the head but connected with the spinal cord from the brain stem. That plus the endocrine system make us out to be more complicated than thoughts allegedly coming from a female or male brain which I said already I don’t buy.
Conventional wisdom had it the other way around, gender being a function of bodily systems. You and some others make the cart leading the horse. It won’t change anything however, not the DNA that exists in every cell and differentiates male from female. Unless manipulated on a cellular level, there is no real sex change except superficial.
HI CJ
Yes the cat reacts to it hormones. However, while these hormones are made in the sex organs, they are made in response to the hormones from the pituitary which are made in response from the hypothalamus which is part of the brain. Unfortunately, you are contradicting yourself.
You said “It won’t change anything however, not the DNA that exists in every cell and differentiates male from female. Unless manipulated on a cellular level, there is no real sex change except superficial.
Wouldn’t you consider this proof that there is a female or male brain since you just said that the DNA that exists in every cell differentiates male from female.
Actually it is not as simple as we might first think as males make some estrogen and females make some testosterone. Furthermore, there definitely is some environmental effect on our sexuality and that effect is present even though we can’t change our DNA.
There are still numerous unanswered scientific questions.
I agree with you about Jackie’s sibling due to such a young age. However, I do sympathize with these people.
One other comment
While a transgender male to female may have the DNA of a male, there is something in the wiring of the brain that makes that individual think like a girl. As I said above, science just doesn’t understand this yet.
No, you are contradicting yourself and presenting a circular argument:
“However, while these hormones are made in the sex organs, they are made in response to the hormones from the pituitary which are made in response from the hypothalamus which is part of the brain. Unfortunately, you are contradicting yourself…Wouldn’t you consider this proof that there is a female or male brain since you just said that the DNA that exists in every cell differentiates male from female.”
What is primary, in other words, what comes first before the brain is formed, is the DNA. You have the sequence of events backwards.
“While a transgender male to female may have the DNA of a male, there is something in the wiring of the brain that makes that individual think like a girl. As I said above, science just doesn’t understand this yet.”
Again, your saying this goes against hallowed feminist theory, that there is no essential cognitive difference between male and female. Your saying that “science” doesn’t understand it (although this unproven postulate is a working hypothesis) already refutes the argument. There is NO monolith called “science” that we have to believe in, rather expect that theories are reality based and not so blatantly counter-intuitive. If they are unproven and not understood, all the more reason to reject them.
“If the surgery helps transgenders to feel more like their true self, if they are happy with the results, that’s the important thing, I think.”
Also fantasy. Suicide rates and substance abuse are far higher in transitioned individuals than in the general population. The more bizarre manifestations of people pursuing their “true selves” are men living as 6 years olds or others changing their bodies to look like animals. A healthy mind in a healthy body should conform to its structure and not militate against it. In other words, people can have troubled and sick ideas about themselves.
From what I’ve read, the father, Mike, took it especially hard, but I’m sure it was very challenging for the whole family.
For whatever reason, they didn’t feel they could stand in their child’s way on this issue. As I see it, they deserve nothing but our respect and support.
If the surgery helps transgenders to feel more like their true self, if they are happy with the results, that’s the important thing, I think.
“If the surgery helps transgenders to feel more like their true self, if they are happy with the results, that’s the important thing, I think.”
CJ: “Also fantasy. Suicide rates and substance abuse are far higher in transitioned individuals than in the general population.”
This page argues that the reason for that is the discrimination they face. Makes sense to me.
https://thinkprogress.org/no-high-suicide-rates-do-not-demonstrate-that-transgender-people-are-mentally-ill-5074c09a5827#.8zpnoyry5
snip:
One of the biggest studies on the experiences of transgender people was the 2011 National Transgender Discrimination Survey (NTDS). It found that in the U.S., 41 percent of transgender and gender non-conforming people had attempted suicide, compared to a national average of just 4.6 percent. When all of the data were analyzed, however, researchers found a number of factors that significantly influenced whether a person was more likely to attempt suicide: being a person of color, experiencing poverty, being unemployed, achieving less education, being out or more easily perceived as transgender, experiencing housing discrimination or especially homelessness, experiencing harassment or especially physical or sexual assault, being rejected by family, or facing discrimination in health care. In other words, the more forms of discrimination transgender people experienced, the more likely they were to attempt suicide.
A brand new study from Canada confirms this effect. There, the suicide attempt rate for transgender people was similar to what other studies have found: about 18 times higher than the general population. But the study found that some factors greatly reduced the attempt rate. For example, when transgender people had affirming parents, the rate dropped by 57 percent. Access to legal documentation consistent with their gender identity dropped rates by 44 percent. Trans people who experienced low levels of anti-trans hate were 66 percent less likely to attempt suicide. And perhaps most importantly, the further along individuals were in their transitions — i.e. the closer they were to having a body and outward identity that matched their internal gender identity — the less likely they were to attempt suicide.
There is significant evidence to suggest that transgender identities have a biological origin, and there is already consensus among medical professionals that the best way to support transgender people is to affirm their gender identities. Despite conservatives’ attempts to portray transgender people as mentally ill, it has already been several years since “gender dysphoria” was declassified as a mental disorder.
Another circular argument by a very prejudiced source: “For example, when transgender people had affirming parents, the rate dropped by 57 percent. Access to legal documentation consistent with their gender identity dropped rates by 44 percent. Trans people who experienced low levels of anti-trans hate were 66 percent less likely to attempt suicide.”
First of all “hate” is in the eye of the beholder. Every time I see that cheap argument thrown around, it registers immediately on my BS detector. Most intelligent persons have compassion on the mentally challenged. However, more than half of 18% is still significantly higher than the general population.
This is not the place to argue the trans issue. However, WHAT IF a certain sibling’s motivation to declare himself a girl was for dysfunctional reasons that could and should be sorted out better in a therapist’s office? This would be more efficient in the long run, less draining on the family’s expenses and healthier for the person to accept his God-given biological sex.
Frequently kids desire what their siblings have and Jackie got more than a lion’s share of adulation and attention to last several lifetimes. There is no consensus affirming the desirability of sex-change because they are all individual cases anyway. Public affirmation may well have the opposite effect, compounding an existing problem. It really should be no one’s business anyway. Something like this should have stayed in the family.
Juliet was in therapy for a couple of years before she came out as transgender. Therapist confirmed and supported her in this.
She hasn’t had gender reassignment surgery yet.
I haven’t been following this, just did a bit of websearching.
Given Jackie’s fame, I think it would have been difficult if not impossible to keep this in the family.
Walt Heyer went to a “therapist” who mistakenly reinforced his identification with the other sex. It was only after years of painful interventions, he found out the real reason, buried in his sub-conscious. His grandmother used to dress him in girls’clothing from the age of 4.
You can read some of the sad stories here of those lived to regret it.
http://www.sexchangeregret.com/examples
It should go without saying that children should not be allowed to undergo so-called treatments.
Be careful with some of these studies. They are quite limited. Researchers have interviewed many of them, Not all of them by a long shot feel that they are females in a male’s body. Many of them aren’t even sure why the want a sex change. Some of them have serious psychiatric problems separate from their transgender issues. It is all very confusing. At this juncture, we can say is that almost all of them are horribly distraught. I feel for them.
So much energy is and has been written by so many people, and I wonder what they have to offer in comparison to the voice that delights me; and so many people who recognise the gift she possesses in her voice.
🙂 Happy Holidays !!
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201705/the-5-worst-email-mistakes-and-the-5-best-ways-avoid-them
Don’t know much about singing.
Don’t know much about sound.
Don’t know much about classical crossover.
Don’t know much about voices or range.
Don’t know much about music.
DO KNOW THAT I CAN”T STOP LISTENING TO JACKIE EVANCHO.
HER VOICE IS INCREDIBLE.
Thank you Jackie Evancho!