Turkey protests to EU over Armenian genocide concert in Dresden
mainThe Turkish state has wheeled out its diplomatic big guns to attack a forthcoming Dresden Symphony concert making the First World War massacre of Christian Armenians by Moslem Turks.
The Turks see red when the word ‘genocide’ is used. The number of Armenians murdered in the state-inspired slaughter varies from 800,000 to 1.5 million.
Turkey has neither admitted nor atoned for the atrocity.
More here.
I am not sure what this has to do with music. Well maybe we can tie in Fazel Say’s problems of free expression under the Turkish government.
The Turkish government party line is the victims suffered from illness or the elements during their fleeing mother Turkey.
About 5 years ago, the US Congress tried to make a statement about the genocide but backed down by the US State Department under pressure from the Turkish ambassador.
After living in Turkey for eight years, I can resolutely say that Turks will never apologize for anything. And now, the baton of maestro Erdogan conducts the 1812 Overture with righteous indignation. One can only hope the cannons in the finale go retrograde by divine accident.
I propose Armenians accept Turkish proposal ( i.e. establising an international commission of historians and law scholars, decide and declare what really happened before, during and after 1915 ) But they can not dare that or go to an authorized international court to prove their accusations are real. What they do is misleading the world common sense. We are ready to prove the Ottoman Armenians rebeled more than 30 times and massacred the defensless Muslim people since their young men were in the 6 different battle fronts fighting againt the imperial states’ forces, i.e. French, British and Russian.
What is their problem? It’s not really up to dispute, it’s a fact. (that is was intentional genocide)
That’s some heavy stuff, that apparent collective delusion in Turkey, that it didn’t happen.
I do not see the reason, why now 100 years later they can not come to terms with it.
Is it for fear of Armenian demand for redress?
It’s because the Armenians will start making endless demands if they do.
Peter…it’s worse than the Armenian fears of redress (although those fears are quite real, and justifiably so because Armenian claims for damages are properly huge). The entire Republic of Turkey’s own narrative about its origins and history is fraudulent. Read the books of Turkish historian Professor Taner Akcam or the book “Turkey, A Modern History” by Professor Erik-Jan Zurcher of the University of Leiden (Netherlands). If Turkey recognizes the Armenian Genocide, then the state’s own explanation of how it came into being falls apart. The history of the origins of the Republic of Turkey are utterly fraudulent, and like the U.S., the country was built on genocide. In this case, the Republic was built on the genocides of the Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks in particular (as well as the Jews to a lesser extent). The state’s own version of history somehow takes the multi-ethnic, multi-religious Ottoman Empire, and everyone suddenly turns into Sunni Turks or otherwise disappears from the map (figuratively as well as in the Armenians’ case, literally).
Ridiculous! The Turkish Ambassador earlier today tried to block a Swedish TV channel from running a documentary on the Armenian Genocide. Ironically, the more Turkey tries to cover its darkest chapter the more awareness it creates about it. It was undoubtedly a genocide and there is more than sufficient evidence out there (one may also question how Raphael Lemkin came to create the wrod ‘genocide’). As a European, I must admit I am extremely concerned about EU’s nimble dealmaking and extremely poor negotiating with Turkey on a number of key issues. Feels like our leadership never gets it right when it comes to foreign policy. Turkey should not be dictating the limits of our freedom, our view of history, our way of life, and what we think is right for Europe. There should be no refugee deal or billions in funding unless EU gets something in return, something more than just a number of refugees. And what the heck does the visa-free travel for Turks has to do anything with the refugee crisis? Even if the EU accession talks prove to be strictly tactical in the end, who and why are we appeasing? Beware. Appeasing a bully always breeds a bully.
Turks are no better than other Muslim nations. They can’t be trusted. UE made another huge mistake by dealing with them for immigration crisis.
This is not only nonsense, but unworthy a discussion between adults. Please take your racism and chauvinism elsewhere, preferably to your trash bin.
Islam is not a race but a belief system, one which bombs and massacres those who have other belief systems, while also mutilating its girls, honour-killing its women and raping its white neighbours.
Please take your own disgusting islamophilia to your own rubbish bin.
Bombing and massacres of innocent civilians by the west far outnumber those done by “Islamic nations”. Fact. How do we explain that?
Islamophilia? How so? If I don’t like oranges, does that mean I suffer from vegetableophilia?
Is offensive nonsense like this permitted on your blog, Norman? Disgraceful.
Indeed. Comparing massacred Western civilians to oranges is deeply offensive.
As is pretending that these bombings have anything to do with military operations which helped to end the rule of dictators.
@POOROPERAMAN
Your hypocrisy is just atrocious. You begin by arguing against Peter’s use of the word “racism” by stating that “Islam is not a race but a belief system”. And then in your next sentence you completely contradict your previous statement by making all sorts of absurd and malicious generalizations against every muslim in the world. So basically you treat Islam like a “race” by claiming that all its followers possess the same identical behaviour and character traits, much like a “racial trait”. Which then does in fact make you a “racist” as your prejudice and bigotry has the same intent as racism.
Now lets take a look at your RACIST comments accusing me and every other moderate Muslim in the world of partaking in:
“bombs and massacres of those who have other belief systems”
:while also mutilating its girls”
“honour-killing its women”
“raping its white neighbours”
And after your vile malicious generalisations you then have the nerve to call Peter to “disgusting”. If you want to see disgusting just look the mirror. You are a typical ignorant bigot and a hypocrite. If the accusations you made were in fact part of my “belief system within Islam” then you shouldn’t have a hard time proving your accusations using the Quran. So lets see the verses that define my “belief system” to “mutilate and honour kill girls and women, rape white neighbours, bomb innocent people and any other filth you claimed…
Do you know any Turk? Or, you imagine Turks under the heavy Armenian propaganda? Do you know that you are a RACIST one?
Armenian genocide thing is full fiction. All nations derive their names from ethnological/etymological roots, and what does ‘Armenian’ mean? ‘The armed one’. A so called nation that derives its name from being ‘armed’ against others! A far cry from, say, ‘Anglo’ which has its roots in ‘angel’ and ‘angle’ both having the same association with divinity.
The fact that ‘armed men’ were not there to have some coffee with Turks in the first place relates to the Imperial Russia. When Bolsheviks proved to be the future of the new Russia by 1910s, the funding for ‘arms’ were cut. Soviets, as we know, had no motivation or plan to make religious identity a tool for their sovereignty in the rest of the world. Communism had no use for manufacturing pseudo-christianity in east Anatolia. Hence the immigration to further east for those ‘unarmed’ groups…
The motivation of money had to last shorter than the motivation of true belief, I believe…
Ozan, why don’t you leave your disinformation and Onion-esque posts for places that are frequented by less-informed people than who obviously visit Slipped Disc. And perhaps you should spend some time reading the increasing number of books on the Armenian Genocide by Turkish historians such as Taner Akcam, Ugur Umit Ungor, and Fatma Muge Gocek, since I’m sure you’re not interested in reading anything by any non-Turkish historians such as Professor Erik Zurcher, Professor Richard Hovannisian, or Professor Ronald Suny.
Let me suggest a few books I have read from Turkish historians, including: “The Young Turks Crime Against Humanity: The Armenian Genocide and Ethinic Cleansing in the Ottoman Empire” by Taner Akcam (Clark University). Or perhaps “A Shameful Act: The Armenian Genocide and and the Question of Turkish Responsibility,” also by Professor Akcam. Or Professor Akcam’s first book, “From Empire to Republic.” Or perhaps you might want to take some time to read Professor Ugur Umit Ungor’s, “The Making of Modern Turkey: Nation and State in Eastern Anatolia.” I have not yet Professor Gocek’s book, “Denial of Violence: Ottoman Past, Turkish Present, and Collective Violence Against the Armenians” but it’s supposed to be superb.
Or if you would instead prefer to read the giant of all books written on the Armenian Genocide, which is the Armenian equivalent of Professor Raul Hilberg’s epic history of the Holocaust, “The Destruction of the European Jews,” (which I’ve also read, and which is universally regarded as the definitive history of the Holocaust), then perhaps you should read Professor Raymond Kevorkian’s astonishing mega-book, “The History of the Armenian Genocide.”
Do us all a favor, and please refrain from future comments. You’re doing nothing more than embarrassing yourself while seeking to convince all of us that in effect that the sun revolves around the earth, or your version of that, which is that there was no Armenian Genocide.
So you derive historical facts from etymological considerations. Interesting. I guess that since “Anglo” derives from “angel”, and since therefore English people must be so angelic, the notion that their army interned Boers survivors and war prisoners in concentration camps is pure fiction. Just because of the name, you know.
And, uh by the way. The bolshevik revolution occurred in 1917, 2 full years after the events discussed here. “By 1910’s” won’t do the trick I am afraid.
A top-notch historian, ladies and gentlemen.
Ozan, you’ve obviously lived in the West long enough since you’re English is decent. Who taught you the inaccuracies that you seem to dearly hold as the truth? Has it ever occurred to you that you’ve been brainwashed? Asserting that there was no Armenian genocide by the Turks is just as perverse as asserting that there was no Holocaust. Oops. I hope I didn’t just pop another balloon in your world view…
Wow. Just change the names and this is the same argument used by Holocaust deniers.
Please stay within the scientific framework (ethnological and etymological history) I presented. Sociology (cited by you) is not a branch that covers political history.
Also please do not address my (or anyone’s) personality, it is further irrelevant.
Re-reading my original comment may help, as I stick with the original scripture.
P.S. (for other commentators): In 1915, Istanbul (the most crowded city by then and now in the whole Middle East and North Africa) had 300.000 people! So talking about 1.500.000 people of any origin ever lived in East Anatolia is a frightening free play with numbers! And I must add, has a dangerous motivation against any science…
Ozan, your posts are so wonderfully self-discrediting. You do a fantastic job of shooting yourself in the foot–so keep shooting, brother!
You sound very confused. As far as the “numbers” are concerned:
How many people in your belief system have to be killed for their ethnical (or comparable affiliation by birth, not by choice) attribution, in order to “qualify” for a “proper” genocide?
Let’s just for the sake of the argument assume the numbers are gravely overstated and we are talking about a few hundreds of thousands Armenians being killed during these events. Is that not enough to classify it as a genocide?
Could you also, I’m just very curious about all the strange things people actually believe in, tell us your classification system, under which the Armenians do not really exist in the first place?
I do not have a ‘belief system’, nor a belief system has a validity for researching a social issue. About those numbers, the first source who came up with the 1.5 million should be consulted (easy remembrance with year ’15 and number 1.5?). I cannot possibly know. That source might also change it to one of the amounts you suggest…
The second question is, I think, important (without regard to ‘my system’s). I also wish to believe that no one in the first place calls himself or herself ‘armed’ by choice. There should be earlier ethnic associations with neutral or even positive claims. Today Kurds are also fighting to claim the majority of the same zone as historically theirs… Either way, camped thinking cannot address to authenticity for any ethnicity.
This is fascinating. So you are not denying that hundreds of thousands died. You are not denying that those were killed by the Turks. It seems you are saying, that people, human beings, have no right to exist, unless they can demonstrate an “authentic” ethnicity. Of course that authenticity being evaluated by yourself or an authority of your choice.
This is crazy. Simple as that.
First of all you deny any humanity, including your own.
Second, you are silly to believe that there is actually such a thing as “authentic” ethnicity. Well, that’s all nonsense in the first place. We are one human race, the rest is just willful arbitrary classification.
Armenians are one branch of the major Indo-European language family. After all it is the language, that is the single most defining factor for people feeling associated with each other, culturally, if you want you can call it nation as well.
Anything else, like claims about a certain DNA, or any other race theory bull are mostly myths, vague and whatever they are: they are never justification for denying other people their human rights. You have wasted your life. I only hope, that you will never be in a position to destroy other lives as well over this raging madness, like your ancestors did.
To All who use the term genocide for 1915 events; Are you assume the mission of an authorizesd international court ? ( Please see, United Nations Convention, 1948) To blame a nation with such a dirty crime by using the known state ( Armenia) and its diaspora’ s unreal / unfair accusations is very easy. The difficulty is to search the real documents and to reach a fair and just decision . Nobody has answered my question yet: Why Armenian side does not accept the Turkish Government’ s proposal establising an international commission of historians and law scholars, decide and declare what really happened before, during and after 1915. Any logical answer?…
Thank you for finally bringing a topic of international relations into formal and legal grounds.
Impersonal statements barely exist in these columns.
Orhan, you must not have gotten the memo. No one in the world believes your nonsense. Stop trying to convince everyone that the sun revolves around the earth. All you’re doing is making a fool of yourself (even anonymously), and helping the world to understand that Turkey is a nation of unapologetic mass murderers.
If I were you, I’d want to get that monkey off my back, not have that what everyone knows you for. Don’t Turks want to be known as good people, rather than as liars and mass murderers and perpetuators of evil? You’re taking the crimes of your forebears and making them your own. Why would you want to do that?
Have you ever stopped and wondered why it is that ALL TURKEY’S NEIGHBORS (Iran, Armenia, Georgia, Balkan countries) hate Turkey? Except for Azerbaijan (which is just another province of Turkey), no one has much respect for the Turks. Certainly not the Arabs, nor the Persians, nor the Christians. The Israelis I know are embarrassed by their association with Turkey, but as more than a few have said to me, “it’s a necessary evil–we live in a tough neighborhood.”
Can you tell us why so many people despise the Turks? Could mass murder have anything to do with it?
And one other data point, dear Orhan. The international group of academic scholars from all over the world, which is called the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS), did conduct a thorough investigation in 1997 into the “1915 events” (as you like to call them) and came to the unambiguous conclusion that Turkey committed genocide against the Armenians in 1915.
Perhaps you never bothered to look at this. Here is a link:
http://www.genocidescholars.org/sites/default/files/document%09%5Bcurrent-page%3A1%5D/documents/IAGSArmenian%20Genocide%20Resolution%20_0.pdf
When the international group of scholars who spend their collective lives on the issue of genocide reach a conclusion of this sort, guess what–the issue is settled. And although you don’t want to acknowledge this, the case against Turkey is overwhelming.
But I suspect this is not going to stop you from continuing to insist that the sun revolves around the earth.
Probably for the same reason Israel didn’t accept any German proposals to “study” the Holocaust. Oh wait, they didn’t have to, because the Germans acknowledged, apologized for, and otherwise have sought for 70 years to atone for their monstrous crimes, and in return they were within a generation welcomed back into the community of respectable nations. And today they treat Holocaust deniers with the contempt they deserve, rather than give them university jobs. An example Turkey might do well to emulate.
My six books, some 400 articles several videos of conferences and presentations (may be 10.000 pages) stand free for down load; counter comments etc. at the blog of “Armenian Genocide Research Center”. As yet no one could refute even one line. I am attaching two documents of the “League of Nations” (U.N. of those days):
From: League of Nations Official Gazette (Picture of Fridthjof Nansen) Sixteenth Plenary Meeting, Saturday September 21, 1919 at 4.30 p.m.
(2) “League of Nations” – Important Documents University of Bradford” Armenia and the League of Nations Documents from the United Nations Library, Geneva; League of Nations Archives Collections Copy of “Note Verbal” by Secretary-General Sir Eric Drummond, dated March 1st, 1920.
Page 2: “Further, in Turkey, minorities were often oppressed and massacres carried out by irregular bands who were entirely outside the control of the central Turkish Government
Let me save any interested parties the time of reading your six books and 400 articles by summarizing the message of their content:
“The sun revolves around the earth.”
I have nothing more to say for those who run away from “documented facts” and find new “smart excuses” to live in their dreams. Last sentence of article “Reno Evening Gazette” of Nov.14, 1915:
From: “Why Armenia Should be Free” Boston 1918, Garekin Pastermadjian (Armen Garo)
P21: The tenth army corps, during its march from Olti to Sarikamish, suffered a delay of twenty-four hours in the Barduz Pass, due to the heroic resistance of the fourth battalion of the Armenian volunteers which made up the Russian reserve.
Opposite Sarikamish, where a battle was waged for three days and three nights, the Turks suffered a loss of 30,000 men, mostly due to cold rather than to the Russian arms. Six hundred Armenian veterans fell in the Barduz Pass, and at such a high price saved the 60,000 Russians from being taken prisoners by the Turks.
p.22 The first battalion of the Armenian volunteers, under the command of the veteran Andranik, strongly enforced in its trenches, repulsed the attacks of Khalil Bey for three days continuously, until the Russians, with the newly-arrived forces from the Caucasus, were able to put to flight the army of Khalil Bey. Thirty-six hundred Turkish soldiers lay dead before the Armenian trenches in the course of .those three days.
From: ” Official Armenian Memorandum” given at the Paris Peace Conference Feb.26, 1919: p.6 “Armenian volunteers fought on all the fronts. In France, in the Foreign Legion, by their bravery they covered themselves with glory. Scarcely one-tenth of their original number now survives. They fought in Syria and in Palestine, in the Legion of the Orient under French command, where they hurried in response to the call of the National Delegation… In the Caucasus, where over 150.000 Armenian men who served in the Russian army on all the fronts, an army of 50.000 men and thousands of volunteers fought throughout under the supreme command of General Nazarbekian… In addition thereto, by their resistance against the Turks until the conclusion of the armistice, they forced the Turks to send troops from Palestine to the Armenian front, and thus contributed indirectly to the victory of the Allied Army in Syria.”
CONCLUSION: Dashnakists revolted, joined enemy. The innocents paid the price.
Allow me to save Slipped Disc readers a lot of time by translating Sukru Server Aya’s posting, from its incomprehensible Turkish-speak into something we can all understand:
“The sun revolves around the earth.”
I need not to say anything to persons who cannot even read and understand the “verbatim texts copied identically” from Garekin Pastermadjian’s book (great Armenian hero and Ambassador in Washington in 1918-1920) and the “Official memorandum” presented by the Armenian Delegation to the Paris Peace Conference signed by B. Nubar and A. Aharonian. So, it is not “my English” but the “verbatim Armenian texts” that need to be translatedinto other languages for those who do not want to see naked facts. One writer who had studied this history in detail named his book “Lies, Lies and more Lies”… The book stands open in the E-library of the Armenian Genocide Resource Center. Bye bye Mr. Doctor, enjoy your illusions, run away from documented facts. fullstop.
Dear Mr. Aya,
I am curious, have you presented any of your research to your academic “peers,” the international scholars who comprise the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS)? According to their website, the IAGS is “a global, interdisciplinary, non-partisan organization that seeks to further research and teaching about the nature, causes, and consequences of genocide, and advance policy studies on genocide prevention.”
Have you presented any of your papers at any of the IAGS’s conferences? Have you published your research in any of their publications? I would imagine you would want your facts to be known and recognized by your peers, right?
Can you tell us why you haven’t?
Gosh, I wonder why Mr. Sukru Server Aya isn’t willing to tell us why he hasn’t presented any of his groundbreaking research to his academic peers at IAGS, the international group of genocide scholars?
You would think he would want to have his scholarly peers see his work that (he reports) proves that Turkey did not commit genocide against the Armenians.