A composer’s view on Brexit: The lessons from history are not encouraging
mainThe film, television and stage composer Howard Goodall has issued an extensive forensic examination of the economic prospects for British music and society after Brexit. It does not make comfortable reading.
Two samples:
Music is not a subsidiary, luxury, minor industry for the UK. We are the second biggest provider of music to the world after the USA. Music is of enormous benefit to us as a country. That is a fact, not an opinion. Nor is it special pleading. For a modern, developed country to deliberately, wilfully strangle one of its lead exporters is bordering on insane. Indeed, the Creative Industries as a whole are the fastest-growing sector in our economy, worth last year just under £100bn to our national coffers (to put that in context, in 2016 the NHS cost us £115bn). The Creative Industries Federation are deeply concerned about the knock-on effects of Brexit on this sector and have published their concerns …
Even if the economic arguments for this folly were sound, the depravity of the ‘hostile environment’ it has brought in its wake, the race-hate, the bullying, the targeted governmental callousness and breath-taking ministerial arrogance would be enough to render it an experiment bound to fail on a social level alone. A stench of recrimination and intimidation has begun to seep from the pronouncements of Brexit spokespeople in recent months, from John Redwood MP’s threat to ‘punish’ businesses for speaking out against the dangers of Brexit to James Cleverly MP’s tweeted comparison of (brilliant) satirical comedy writer David Schneider to his dog, for daring to question the economic case for Brexit. Elected politicians who stoop to threats and insults demean their office and public discourse in general. Is this the Britain we should expect after Brexit?
Read on here
Brilliant piece by Howard Goodall, that should be very widely read and shared.
Mr Goodall, as you are simply unable to accept the will of the people of the UK and resort to the traditional “scaremongering” of the remainers, may I suggest a trip to Heathrow to catch a plane to any of the wonderful EU states that will welcome you with open arms. We of course, will get on with our cultural development and our contribution to the “arts” will be no more or less than when we were in the EU. If you can’t hack it in the UK then please leave………..and take the other moaning minnies with you!
Indtead of suggesting an opponent to leave, which is plain dull, why can’t you provide an intelligent argument for why he may be mistaken. Spare key strokes for the future. You may need them to complain about the already disappearing public services
Absolutely spot it’s exactly what I have been saying too
Ellingtonia. You have learned nothing my friend from history nor modern commerce.
Firstly the history bit. Look at Europe right now. In many of the EU member states the far right are gathering and in several cases meeting with success. Whichever country you look at the message is the same Italy First, Germany First, England First, France First, Hungary First.
The consequences are clear if any of these parties reach power. If they withdraw from the EU like the idiot British, we can easily find ourselves in the situation pre 1939, where the self interests of the individual state become a blindness which leads to war. At present, all the members of the ‘club’ are too busy trading with each other and making money and creating jobs and security that waging war on each other is the last thing on their minds. Indeed Germany is the economic powerhouse simply because they produce the goods that the rest of the world will always want, cars, vans, washing machines, dishwashers, fridges & freezers, microwaves and ovens and combi boilers, and ALL very high quality so that the epitomise german Engineering. On top of the domestic market they enjoy shipbuilding, heavy construction machinery and plant. Sound familiar? Of course it does, it’s the same stuff that Britain was once famous for. Now, thanks to Thatcher we have banking, and a small niche market in high end space satellites and other linked high tech equipment. Banking was nearly the death of us all because of the uncontrolled and reckless behaviour of the cowboys who worked in the industry. But an earner it still is, but maybe not for long.
Despite the assurances of the politicians the bosses in the banking world have made it plain, if Brexit leads to loss of profits and/or high costs that were not present pre brexit then they will WALK.
The voters in Sunderland voted to leave. Nissan, despite announcing plans to expand production there have also made their position quite clear. If they lose the preferential export rates to the rest of the EU they will walk too. And remember, there are plenty of EU states that would be only too happy to open their doors to Nissan and others. As one CEO of a high tech British valve and actuator manufacturer said recently, “In order to continue selling to our main customers, the EU states we will be forced to open offices and appoint management structures in those countries or we will lose their custom.” (BBC R4 Business World). And, lastly looming in the background is the US who proclaims to seek trade terms with the UK. You bet they do, to dump all their goods on the UK that they can’t even sell in the US.
Thank you for the lecture on history and the business climate the UK, it reminds me of the naysayers and gloom mongers predicting hell and damnation if we withdrew from the EU……….well, I and my fellow “outers” are still waiting. I had to chuckle at you quoting the BBC R4 Business World as some kind of independant and authoritative source on economic forecasting. This would be the same BBC that has acted as a mouthpiece for the remainers and recently admitted that virtually everyone that works at the BBC is pro EU. So, do get over your sanctimonious preaching and treating those of us who made a different decision to your good self as “the great unwashed”
You do appear to be a well balanced (anonymous) individual – the proverbial chip on each shoulder.
Why thank you, I take that as a compliment as I like to keep a balanced view of life, I do occasionally take issue with some things and feel the need from time to time to offer my view.
Ha, ha, well said.
Brexit is NOT ‘the will of the people’ but only half of the people (the half where the brain is not located).
Find it slightly depressing that in order to get your point across you have to resort to insults. Also find it slightly worrying that the Remainers want to occupy the moral high ground. Its called democracy, the leave camp won by a majority, but there again we could always resort to what the Irish were forced to do in the case of Maastrict i.e. keep on having referendums until the EU and their fellow travellers get the result they want.
@ellingtonia instead of suggesting an opponent to leave, which is plain dull, why can’t you provide an intelligent argument for why he may be mistaken. Spare key strokes for the future. You may need them to complain about the already disappearing public services
Mr Goodall is simply speculating how Brexit will affect the “hand wringing luvvies” of the arts world, many of us are unclear what may happen but that is what we voted for, because in life there are no certainties. Perhaps Mr Goodall has forgotten all the “doom mongering” by those who wanted to remain, including most of the “arts world”. More recently Patrick Stewarts lamentable performance on TV last weekend when interviewed about Brexit. As I have stated, there are many flights from Heathrow should Mr Goodall not find the UK to his taste. As regards the disappearing public services, they have been disappearing (which some of them needed to do) for the last 25 years (I know I worked in them for many years) and have nothing to do (or very little) with Brexit.
‘Hand wringing luvvies’ is an insulting pejorative and it is totally unsurprising that you might resort to that kind of pathetic abuse rather than provide a coherent, argued rebuttal to Mr Goodall’s blog. Thanks to the myopic Brexit vote, neither Mr Goodall or any other British national will be ‘welcomed with open arms’ in Europe. Maybe you don’t understand the concept of ‘free movement’. Also the EU government is an elected body – you have an MEP that you, as a democrat, would have certainly voted for.
So because I voted out my vote is “myopic” as against those who voted remain who are so intellectually superior and capable of making a decision about the future governance of the UK. My, what crass arrogance, and I am really sorry that British artists will not be welcomed in Europe, but do have a word with the fishermen around Britains coast who have seen their industry decimated because of the EU…………oh, but I forgot, musicians and opera singers are “different” ( a bit like Sheldon in Big bang Theory!). I did not vote for an MEP as the EU parliament is basically a corrupt body and I refuse to participate in such a charade. Perhaps you need to go back and read the definition of the word democracy so that you and you fellow whinging remainers can understand that you LOST the vote, so get over it and stop behaving like a Violet Elizabeth who threatened to “scream and scream” until she made herself sick!
m and scream
You’re not the only one who voted out! And the arrogance of the remoaners who try and tell those who have a different and democratic point of view that the leavers were badly informed and didn’t know what they were doing or worse were all northerners.
It’s only natural to avoid engaging with the best arguments of your political opponents, but this means you don’t really evaluate their policy.
Yes, the current arrangements surely are convenient for us prospering within them.
Unfortunately the price we have to pay is accepting an EU government that is not accountable to us whom they govern.
This is perhaps neither safe nor sustainable over the longer term.
This is just bizarre. EU laws are passed by the democratically elected national governments of the EU countries, and require each individual country to agree to these laws. Similarly, the budget is agreed by all the EU countries. Of course, you may not want to co-operate with other countries, and resent the fact they have a say in EU rules, but claiming these rules are “undemocratic” is wilful ignorance.
Silly boy ! You should read about the EU and inform yourself better. Laws passed by people who have not been democratically elected do not, under any circumstances, become laws that are democratically established.
I would appreciate hearing the views of professionals in the arts and arts enthusiasts who favor Brexit. It seems to me that before the EU there were some pretty wonderful things being produced by British talent.
Ellingtonia – have you actually read Howard’s article? He points you towards many sources that back his (in my view, totally justifiable and correct) opinion that the rigmarole that will be involved in musicians working in EU countries post-Brexit will make that unviable for many.
And Howard certainly CAN hack it in the UK – your suggestion he can’t/won’t is risible.
Have you heard of the phrase “applying for a visa” (which many artists still have to do outside of the EU) and as far as Mr Goodall is concerned I never once suggested he couldn’t hack it in the UK, what I did suggest is that if he doesn’t like the UK and the way it operates he can always relocate.
1) yes, I have. I do it for orchestras quite often and it is a major user of time – having to apply for visas makes foreign touring more expensive. That we will have to spend time doing this is one of his points.
2) why did you use the word “hack” if you didn’t mean it?
3) Why do you hide behind a pseudonym?
1. So you will have a little more work to do, you should be grateful as it means it will keep you in a job longer. And if this is the best criticism you can come up with you need more to do in your job
2. I used the word hack in the context that if Mr Goodall does not like the way this country is run, and I include the cultural life off the UK, he is at liberty to take up residence elsewhere, where he feels more at home with the values and culture of that country.
3. Since when did I have to justify to you, what name I post under?
1 Yes – I and others will have to do more work; but that is a cost to orchestras and artists; which then gets passed on to the end user, making UK orchestras more expensive… Fairly basic economics that even I understand
3 You don’t, but it’s just a little keyboard warriorish
Erm…we don’t yet know the rules which will be applied. It could range from “completely free movement of people” to “nobody allowed in for employment”.
Ellingtonia – I am intrigued by your use of parenthesis for “arts” and “arts world”. You are clearly uncomfortable in this environment, you don’t seem to believe in it, which does lead one to wonder why on earth you are trolling a sector that is so overwhelmingly supportive of the EU. You are also mad keen on the fact that you “won” and we (presumably for you “the arts”) lost. This cannot be argued. But Brexit is going so spiffingly well isn’t it? I wonder who will end up having the last laugh?
My interest in the “arts” as you put it, amounts to a life long interest in music from Blues and R&B back in the early 60s through to a later discovery of Bruckner, Mahler and Shostakovitch in my 20s. I subsequently became enamoured with the operas of Richard Strauss and Leos Janacek (Jenufa in particular) as well as the usual Italian “pot boilers” I have seen both the Vienna Philharmonic and Berlin Philharmonic play in their own concert halls and attended more Halle Concerts than I have had hot breakfasts. My pen name is a tribute to the late great Duke Ellington, one of the 20th centuries greatest musicians and composers, and I will throw in Keith Jarrett and Mike Gibbs for good measure. So you see, some of us outers do have an interest in the arts world, but we get a little tired from time to time of being patronised because we disagree with those who think they know what is best for us.
What a load of intolerable piffle (from yet another lefty luvvie). One only has to pay attention to history tells us that such empires never succeed. The EU is undemocratic, hopelessly corrupt and federalist (no need to explain future). The UK was a world centre of classical music (and recording) long before we joined the EU. It will be so again. Brexit will be the best thing to have happened to UK since WWII. The EU don’t like us and only want our money. Look forward to being free once again. We are not a stupid race. We will succeed as never before (and in music).
Tut tut tut…. faint echos of past glories. The EU is still in the making and will reform, no doubt, under teh pressures of encessity and brexit is inf act a great relief from the burden of British problem mongering. The EU has never been set-up as an ’empire’ but was an initiative of the countries involved. The whole attitude of the brexiteers is absurd and the sentiments driving it despiccable and stupid. With all due respect, but British politics are crazy and suicidal and appear to be completely incompetent.
The UK has a history very different from the continent and lies closer to the USA than to Europe, culturally, and in terms of mentality, and they should never have entered the EU – as they did and then halfheartedly disrupted attempts to find common ground among the members.
Its music life has always been internationally-oriented. Hopefully that will continue to be the case, but brexit does definitely not give the UK much reason for chest thumping. For most musicians it will only create problems, that seems to be clear.
Only an hour ago I wrote to a blog (following an article in the Sydney Morning Herald by the outgoing Oz High Commissioner in UK) :
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/eu-in-denial-about-mishandling-immigration-says-alexander-downer-20180427-p4zbyf.html
“Downer states more or less what I have been saying for two years – that the EU should have seen the UK’s vote to leave as inevitable and yet for some 15 years the EU’s unelected (& thus undemocratic) “Gang of Four” in Brussels did nothing to stop it (they being so grossly obsessed with their own power ?).
When they sent the weak Cameron packing it was already much too late for the
essential reforms to be made … thus making it ever more certain that to quit was
the right and only thing for the UK to do.
Our departure is the EU’s greatest day of shame (and the best thing to happen to us since WWII); the EU is now such a corrupt federal-seeking mess that we will benefit greatly from the return of our freedom.”
It is very apparent who possess the brains here. No doubt whatever.
Date: Friday 25th May 2018.
As a composer and keen EU Federalist, the disastrous Brexit decision, fuelled by xenophobia and post-colonial delusions of grandeur has not only given me many a sleepless night but also made me thoroughly ashamed to have been born in England.
I am planning to leave the UK for good within the next five / six years because the prospects of remaining in “Brexitannia” ruled by a far-right oligarchy is one I find utterly unacceptable.
Maybe the tub-thumping “my country right or wrong” diehards will take issue with the above and accuse me of being unpatriotic. Well – I’ve heard it all before.
Richard Stanbrook needs to do some serious reading. We are leaving the EU, not because it is doomed (it surely is), but because it is both corrupt and hopelessly undemocratic. We cannot survive any longer with open borders; we do not wish to join the Euro nor, worst of all, do we wish to become part of a federal EU governed by unelected officials in Brussels. It’s really very simple indeed if you study the matter. Apart from the above brief summary over 40% of EU citizens are now expressing doubt about the future of this hopeless organisation. Read some more Mr. Stanbrook and don’t be governed, so totally, by such misplaced emotions as you have expressed. Our future outside the EU is assured and we are improving already even before we’ve left. We are not a stupid race.
From: Richard Stanbrook
To: Slipped Disc
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 15:02:24 +0100
Subject: Re: [Slipped Disc] New Comment On: A composer’s view on Brexit: The lessons from history are not encouraging
To John G. Deacon.
I can assure you that I have done a very great deal of “serious reading!”
It is plain to me that, sadly, you really DO believe in “my country, right
or wrong” and when I read comments such as yours, my reasons for leaving
become reinforced.
If you are really naïve enough to believe in a “Brave New British Order”
post-Brexit, then perhaps you should ponder on the type of society Britain
is in danger of becoming. Borders never have been an issue with me and I’m
pleased to be (at least for the present) part of a multi-cultural,
multi-ethnic European community. Whilst not suggesting that you are in any
way xenophobic or support the ever-growing far-right, do you really think
that leaving the EU will address your concerns? I rather think not.
I will not waste any more time answering comments like these: they’re all
so predictable. This correspondence is at an end.
Richard Stanbrook
It is intellectually flabby, in the extreme, to write a note to this list and terminate a discussion as soon as someone disagrees with you. Sad, indeed. But what I said was not what the UK would become, but what the EU had now already become and that we should no longer be a part of it. History shows that the EU will fail and becoming democratic will not save it. You only have to look at the Brexit supporters to realise they are right (Dyson, Bamford et al). As for the personal insults these are based on false ideas. I have lived in 11 countries working for major international record companies since 1964 and am extremely well informed and widely read on all matters concerning Brexit. But Mr. Stanbrook is right – I have no need to continue exchanges at his low and over emotive intellectual level.
Date: Saturday 26th May 2018.
To John G. Deacon.
Swopping insults without qualification is, indeed, intellectually void. As my last words on this matter, I suggest Mr. Deacon ponders the following before making wild, erroneous assumptions about my mental faculties:
(1) What type of country Britain will become post-Brexit.
(2) Three facts: (i) The Second World War in Europe ended 73 years ago; (ii) Britain no longer has an empire and, (iii) Britannia no longer rules the waves.
(3) Agreed: The EU is not perfect but I find its principles of freedom of movement (a two-way traffic, by the bye) and all allied matters – plus that all-important safeguarding of human rights and civil liberties – to be of paramount importance. Leaving the protecting umbrella of the European Courts of Justice & Human Rights is, in my view, downright dangerous for democracy.
(4) Linked to (3), The new Espionage Act (currently in its committee stage) will become law at roughly the same time as Britain’s projected exit from the EU. My fears – shared by others – are that when Brexit turns out to be a ghastly failure, as it assuredly will, new measures, “piggy-backing” on this new Act, could curtail civil liberties under the pretext of “protecting Britain’s vital interests.” In effect, a UK version of the USA’s Patriot legislation, introduced post 9/11. I can envisage more than just a few creative artists being dragged before official tribunals for ritual humiliation. Being mindful of the McCarthy era which saw the deportation of composer Hanns Eisler, this is not as far-fetched as people may think.
(5) The Irish Border situation cannot be brushed aside by the far-right hard Brexiteers. If such disrespect and disregard for the peoples of both Ulster and the Irish Republic degenerates into violence -something I hope will never happen – then my view is that the Westminster Government will have to shoulder the responsibility.
It was never my intention to insult Mr. Deacon, but his remarks on my intellectual level could not pass by unchallenged. Brexit IS a very emotional, divisive and ultimately tragic issue and I just hope it isn’t too late to abandon this reckless adventurism.
Richard Stanbrook.
My what a little hissy fit when assertively challenged by people with different views than yourself. Here is my response to your points:-
1. The country will become whatever it wants post Brexit, without the constraints of EU diktat
2. Ah, I wondered how long before the accusations of xenophobia and little Englander were thrown into the mix……..usually the last vestige of the scoundrel!
3.Finally an acknowledgement that the EU is not perfect, as regards human rights, it is time that some of these were reviewed to stop various groups exploiting the goodwill of the UK
4. See my answer to 3
5. The assertion that the issue between the Republic and Northern Ireland will degenerate into violence is without any evidence whatsoever and is another example of the paranoid scaremongering of the Remainers
And in your words Brexit is tragic, no it isn’t, outbreaks of Ebola are tragic, the sytemetic rape of Yazidi women is tragic, the starving millions in Africa is tragic……..Brexit is the result of a democratic process in the UK, which you don’t happen to like………do get a grip man!
I must thank Ellingtonia for putting the record straight for the very misguided correspondent who has been provoking us. I have been away. As the evidence, that the UK must leave this hopelessly corrupt, undemocratic and crumbling EU, builds to the point that there’s no longer any doubt that we must leave, there is, thus, no point in continuing these exchanges where abuse has tended to override facts. However I would commend to Mr. Stanbrook Daniel Hannan’s excellent speech before the referendum.
https://www.facebook.com/danielhannan/videos/10153480560697331/
It’s not difficult to understand so that it is a very great shame that he, and other Remainiacs, were not listening and very many of us must now be wondering how they can any longer maintain their position now that Brexit is, more visibly than ever, the only right solution to be followed ….. before the whole incompetent, corrupt and totally undemocratic EU economic mess, and rotting edifice, crumbles ?
Is this a club to which any sane person would want to belong (with 40%+ of the EU populations being discontent with where Brussels has led us) ? And it’s all set to become a federal state as well ….. !